Js And The Accounts Of The First Vision

[Doctor Steuss]

Its the feb 14 1831

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY/wayn1830.htm#021431

Interesting. Although it is a third hand account, we first have this:

â?¦Smith (they affirmed) had seen God frequently and personallyâ?¦

And then this.

â?¦commissions and papers were exhibited, said to be signed by Christ himself!!!

So, it is possible that accounts of Joseph Smith having direct contact with both G-d and Christ were being circulated as early as 1831. Whereâ??s Painesville? Iâ??m just curious since it appears that is where this third hand account is coming from. Is it close to where the Smith family was living? (I'm wondering how far this account had possibly spread by 1831).

[carbonation]

So, it is possible that accounts of Joseph Smith having direct contact with both G-d and Christ were being circulated as early as 1831. Whereâ??s Painesville?

Painesville, Ohio.

If you will look carefully at the source in question you will see that the statements by LDS missionaries were actually being made in early November 1830.

[Freedom in Truth]

He can make any number of angels you want out of just 1.

â??There is no discrepancy at all. An angel of the Lord moved the stone and was sitting upon it outside (Matthew 28:2). The two men (Luke 24:4) were angels (John 20:12). Mark 16:5 presents the only potential issue and it isn't one at all. If there were two angels in the tomb, then there was at least one. This one was on the right. Therefore, we see that there was one angel outside and two on the inside of the tomb.â?

Well! I am not sure I am following the above logic at all! I think the explanation below is better, though I donâ??t know that I agree with it either - I would need to think about it more. But I stand by my original statement - One or two. It canâ??t be both.

From http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm

86. In (Matthew 16:2; 28:7; Mark 16:5-6; Luke 24:4-5; 23), the women were told what happened to Jesus' body, while in (John 20:2) Mary was not told.

(Category: the texts are compatible with a little thought)

The angels told the women that Jesus had risen from the dead. Matthew, Mark and Luke are all clear on this. The apparent discrepancy regarding the number of angels is cleared up when we realize that there were two groups of women. Mary Magdalene and her group probably set out from the house of John Mark, where the Last Supper had been held. Joanna and some other unnamed women, on the other hand, probably set out from Herod's residence, in a different part of the city. Joanna was the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household (Luke 8:3) and it is therefore highly probable that she and her companions set out from the royal residence.

With this in mind, it is clear that the first angel (who rolled away the stone and told Mary and Salome where Jesus was) had disappeared by the time Joanna and her companions arrived. When they got there (Luke 24:3-8 ), two angels appeared and told them the good news, after which they hurried off to tell the apostles. In Luke 24:10, all the women are mentioned together, as they all went to the apostles in the end.

We are now in a position to see why Mary Magdalene did not see the angels. John 20:1 tells us that Mary came to the tomb and we know from the other accounts that Salome and another Mary were with her. As soon as she saw the stone rolled away, she ran to tell the apostles, assuming that Jesus had been taken away. The other Mary and Salome, on the other hand, satisfied their curiosity by looking inside the tomb, where they found the angel who told them what had happened. So we see that the angels did inform the women, but that Mary Magdalene ran back before she had chance to meet them.

Some things are clear from the gospel accounts - Jesus died on a cross, his body was laid in a tomb, on the first day of the week when women came to the tomb they found it empty, Jesus had risen from the dead, heavenly beings were seen, and Jesusâ?? disciples were surprised. It is the resurrection story - Jesus died and rose from the dead.

It is the first vision story - who did JS see?

Four gospels written down approximately 30-60 years after the events by different writers not necessarily eyewitnesses. Four gospels whose sources/viewpoints are one Gentile and three Jews, written in Hebrew or Greek thought about 2,000 years ago. Different language, different culture - no original manuscripts. Yet the important events are there.

Two first vision accounts (that we are looking at) written down approximately 12-18 years after the event by the same writer who was an eyewitness. Two accounts whose source is one eyewitness, written in English in â??Americanâ? thought about 200 years ago. Same language, same culture - original manuscripts. Yet the important event conflicts. And no solid evidence (that has been shown to me) as to why.

P.S. How do I get my link to work?

[Zakuska]

FIT,

Check those last few posts... LDS missionaries where teaching JS had spoken with God, Christ, as well as angels as early as November 1830. These where all reported in local Newspapers. Thats 2 years before the 1832 Rough Draft.

[Freedom in Truth]

The Reflector, 1 February 1831 (Palmyra, New York). - . . . his mental powers appear to be extremely limited . . ."

From http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/20...al_Stories.html (an article cited on this thread)

â??In the area where the actual theophany takes place you will notice that Joseph Smith has incorporated three very relevant Bible stories into the telling of his tale . . .â?

â??It is apparent from this exacting pattern of parallels that Joseph Smith was trying to show . . .â?

â??These exacting parallels also indicate that JS 1832 is a deliberately constructed, and complex textâ??it is NOT the simple retelling of a story.â?

â??As you can tell by now, JS 1832 is no ordinary text. Even though it is relatively short in length, it is deliberately assembled and tightly

structured . . .â?

How do those descriptions of JS go with extremely limited mental powers?

[Doctor Steuss]

From http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/20...al_Stories.html (an article cited on this thread)

â??In the area where the actual theophany takes place you will notice that Joseph Smith has incorporated three very relevant Bible stories into the telling of his tale . . .â?

â??It is apparent from this exacting pattern of parallels that Joseph Smith was trying to show . . .â?

â??These exacting parallels also indicate that JS 1832 is a deliberately constructed, and complex textâ??it is NOT the simple retelling of a story.â?

â??As you can tell by now, JS 1832 is no ordinary text. Even though it is relatively short in length, it is deliberately assembled and tightly

structured . . .â?

How do those descriptions of JS go with extremely limited mental powers?

Quite well when one believes that at times he was acting as a mouthpiece for G-d.

[Zakuska]

Have you looked at the References the good Doctor supplied?

The News Paper Article from February 1831 was reporting that missionaries where teaching that JS spoke regularly with God, Christ as wells Angels. Two years before the rought draft?

[Freedom in Truth]

Its the feb 14 1831

The world (except the New Jerusalem) would come to an end in two or three years. The state of New York would (probably) be sunk: Smith (they affirmed) had seen God frequently and personally . . .

I thought you all were looking for evidence that JS, before or in 1832, had orally told his first vision account as seeing 2 personages. This quote does not address this. Also, "seeing God" does not necessarily mean God has a body of flesh and bones.

The world would come to an end in two or three years??

[Zakuska]

I thought you all were looking for evidence that JS, before or in 1832, had orally told his first vision account as seeing 2 personages. This quote does not address this. Also, "seeing God" does not necessarily mean God has a body of flesh and bones.

The world would come to an end in two or three years??

Continue on in the quote.

All 3 heavenly types of messengers are in the story.

"God, Christ signed the Papers and they had talked with Angles."

Remeber this is a third hand account, but none the less. The Missionaries that where going out where well versed in what JS and they had actually seen. God, Christ and Angels.

[Freedom in Truth]

If you will look carefully at the source in question you will see that the statements by LDS missionaries were actually being made in early November 1830.

What source? What statements? Do we have the text?

[Zakuska]

What source... The Newspaper written by an Author who had spoken with LDS missionaries who where teach in November of 1830 that JS had spoken with God the father, His Son Jesus Christ as well as Angels.

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY/wayn1830.htm#021431

Here it is again:

BOOK OF MORMON. -- Our Painesville correspondent informs us, "that about the first of Nov. last, Oliver Cowdery, {we shall notice this character in the course of our labors,} and three others arrived at that village with the "New Bible," on a mission to the notorious Sidney Rigdon, who resides in the adjoining town. Rigdon received them graciously -- took the book under advisement, and in a few days declared it to be of "Heavenly origin." Rigdon, with about 20 of his flock, were dipt immediately. They then proclaimed that there had been no religion in the world for 1500 years, -- that no one had been authorised to preach &c. for that period, -- that Joe Smith had now received a commission from God for that purpose, and that all such as did not submit to his authority would speedily be destroyed. The world (except the New Jerusalem) would come to an end in two or three years. The state of New York would (probably) be sunk: 1) Smith (they affirmed) had seen God frequently and personally -- Cowdery and his friends had frequent interviews with angels, and had been directed to locate the site for the New Jerusalem, which they should know, the moment they should "step their feet" upon it. They pretend to heal the sick and work miracles, and had made a number of unsuccessful attempts to do so. The Indians were the ten lost tribes -- some of them had already been dipt. From 1 to 200 (whites) had already been in the water, and showed great zeal in this new religion -- many were converted before they saw the book. Smith was continually receiving new revelations, and it would probably take him 1000 years to complete them -- commissions and papers were exhibited, said to be signed by Christ himself!!! Cowdery authorized three persons to preach, &c., and descended the Ohio River. The converts are forming "common stock" families, as most pleasing in the sight of God. They pretend to give the "Holy Spirit" and under its operations they fall upon the floor -- see visions, &c. Indians followed Cowdery daily, and finally saw him enter the promised land, where he placed a pole in the ground, with a light on its top, to designate the site of the New Jerusalem.

In fact God Christ the Holy Ghost as well as the Angels are all elelements of this story.

[Freedom in Truth]

FIT,

Check those last few posts... LDS missionaries where teaching JS had spoken with God, Christ, as well as angels as early as November 1830. These where all reported in local Newspapers. Thats 2 years before the 1832 Rough Draft.

But JS speaking with God, Christ, as well as angels, reported in 1830 doesn't mean he saw 2 personages in the first vision. The first vision happened about 1820? There are 10 years between the first vision and 1830. That's a long time. (One angel would at least be Mormoni, right?)

[Doctor Steuss]

The world would come to an end in two or three years??

Maybe enough people repented. (Was it Jonas that gave the destruction prophecy for a city, but then G-d changed his mind? -- sorry Iâ??m not that much at scriptures).

They might have been conflating Joseph with Joanna Southcote as well. Who knows. Whatever the reason, Iâ??m glad it wasnâ??t true.

[Freedom in Truth]

Quite well when one believes that at times he was acting as a mouthpiece for G-d.

You know, I checked the article for that idea . . . and I didn't see it there. The author didn't mention anything about inspiration from God - he kept talking about what JS did.

[Zakuska]

But JS speaking with God, Christ, as well as angels, reported in 1830 doesn't mean he saw 2 personages in the first vision. The first vision happened about 1820? There are 10 years between the first vision and 1830. That's a long time. (One angel would at least be Mormoni, right?)

10 years is a long time?

Not as long as many of the Bible accounts.

What do you want him to have done? Take Dictation?

[Freedom in Truth]

Have you looked at the References the good Doctor supplied?

The News Paper Article from February 1831 was reporting that missionaries where teaching that JS spoke regularly with God, Christ as wells Angels. Two years before the rought draft?

The Reflector, Feb. 14, 1831 - right? I already posted on it. Anything else?

[Zakuska]

Im sure there are. Thats the one we are speaking of at the moment.

It has all the elements:

1) God the Father

2) Jesus Christ

3) Holy Ghost

4) Angels

Remeber it is a third hand account and it wasnt dictated but it pretty much covers the Missionary discussions we teach now days.

[Freedom in Truth]

Continue on in the quote.

All 3 heavenly types of messengers are in the story.

"God, Christ signed the Papers and they had talked with Angles."

Remeber this is a third hand account, but none the less. The Missionaries that where going out where well versed in what JS and they had actually seen. God, Christ and Angels.

But this has nothing necessarily to do with the first vision account - JS could have seen God between 1820 and 1830. He saw Moroni (and possibly other angels - I don't remember) having to do with the golden plates.

[Zakuska]

It covers every element of the first two discussions.

1) God the Father

2) Jesus Christ

3) Angels

4) The BOM

What do you want Joseph to have done? Have the Lord Dictate the Discussions to him and been preaching it from the next spring morning in 1820?

It has enough detail to show that JS did not hold to monotheism and then change to 3 Gods as some speculate.

[Freedom in Truth]

Maybe enough people repented. (Was it Jonas that gave the destruction prophecy for a city, but then G-d changed his mind? -- sorry Iâ??m not that much at scriptures).

They might have been conflating Joseph with Joanna Southcote as well. Who knows. Whatever the reason, Iâ??m glad it wasnâ??t true.

Or maybe we're all living in the New Jerusalem!

[Freedom in Truth]

10 years is a long time?

Not as long as many of the Bible accounts.

What do you want him to have done? Take Dictation?

10 years is a long time to see many visions of God, Christ, and angels. (I was not speaking about how long it took JS to write down his first vision account.) The newspaper is not specifically addressing the first vision.

[Zakuska]

I never said it was specifically addressing the First Vision.

Its basically summarizing what JS had been doing for 10 years. It also shows us what the missionaries where teaching. They'd been doing missionary work since at least April 6, 1830. And they where speaking of 3 "gods" as well as angels.

And this is 2 years Prior to a Rough Draft project that JS gave up on in which no father is mentioned just the Lord. But it shows that JS didn't develope the theology of one then two and then three gods. It was always three from the beginning.

[TrashcanMan79]

But JS speaking with God, Christ, as well as angels, reported in 1830 doesn't mean he saw 2 personages in the first vision. The first vision happened about 1820? There are 10 years between the first vision and 1830.

Did Smith claim to have seen God the Father at other times (not the First Vision) during these ten years?

[Doctor Steuss]

I found this and thought Iâ??d share it. I canâ??t remember where in the thread, but I believe someone asked if there was anything saying that G-d had a physical body before the 1838 account of the first vision. This is after the 1832 account, but before the 1838.

August 25, 1836 issue of the Cincinnati Journal

They believe that the true God is a material being, composed of body and parts; and that when the Creator formed Adam in his own image, he made him about the size and shape of God himself.

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH/miscoh08.htm

Thanks be to the great Uncle Dale!

[bluebell]

I found this and thought Iâ??d share it. I canâ??t remember where in the thread, but I believe someone asked if there was anything saying that G-d had a physical body before the 1838 account of the first vision. This is after the 1832 account, but before the 1838.

August 25, 1836 issue of the Cincinnati Journal

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH/miscoh08.htm

Thanks be to the great Uncle Dale!

Thanks for finding that info Stu.