Alternate Authorship Bom Theories-problems

[Uncle Dale]

I wonder what whiskey tastes like?

Good Kentucky bourbon has a slightly woodsy taste to it -- but the stuff they put up

front, on sale at the Utah State Liquor Stores tastes more like paint thinner.

In another entry for the Ripley's Believe It Or Not category, your Uncle Dale

once worked in the 25th Street Utah State Liquor outlet in Ogden (after his

short-lived "Aquarian Bookstore" on that same street was fire-bombed).

Uncle "Ah! Deseret! what was a good RLDS boy doing in such a wicked place?" Dale

[SolarPowered]

What about NHM? What do you find so convincing about NHM?

Sorry for derailing...

Whoever wrote the book of 1 Nephi obviously knew there was a place named NHM where you turn left to go east to Bountiful.

[Who Knows]

Whoever wrote the book of 1 Nephi obviously knew there was a place named NHM where you turn left to go east to Bountiful.

Actually, in 1 Nephi a place called Nahom is mentioned.

[Uncle Dale]

Actually, in 1 Nephi a place called Nahom is mentioned.

Which, as I showed Dr. Peterson in an earlier thread, was

published on a map of Arabia, drawn in England and reprinted

in America at about the same time Solomon Spalding was

attending Dartmouth College.

I then suggested that somebody ought to go back and check the

map catalog for the Dartmouth Library from those early years,

but nobody was very interested in doing that.

Do a thread search, find the image and re-post it for me,

if you have time. I'm ready for my afternoon nap.

UD

[SolarPowered]

Actually, in 1 Nephi a place called Nahom is mentioned.

Didn't I just say that?

[emeliza]

Solar Power,

I believe they are stating it wasn't NHM in the BoM, but rather Nahom (not the same places?). However, my understanding from you is that NHM and Nahom are the same place.

[Who Knows]

Didn't I just say that?

No. You said NHM (arabic tribal name, meaning something to do with stone cutting) was in 1 Nephi.

Which, as I showed Dr. Peterson in an earlier thread, was

published on a map of Arabia, drawn in England and reprinted

in America at about the same time Solomon Spalding was

attending Dartmouth College.

I then suggested that somebody ought to go back and check the

map catalog for the Dartmouth Library from those early years,

but nobody was very interested in doing that.

Do a thread search, find the image and re-post it for me,

if you have time. I'm ready for my afternoon nap.

UD

I didn't find your thread, but found this link to the map - where you can blow it up. Nehem is located near the first M in Yemen.

edit - here's the link: http://www.geographicus.com/Merchant2/merc...-pinkerton-1818

[SolarPowered]

No. You said NHM (arabic tribal name, meaning something to do with stone cutting) was in 1 Nephi.

Oh, I'm sorry! Let me point in some vowels for you: "NaHoM". Is that better?

[cdowis]

>Actually, in 1 Nephi a place called Nahom is mentioned.

That is the English translation. You need to get familiar with Hebrew and other semitic languages -- they write consonants and vowels are added to the English translation.

Thus, Nahom is the same as Nehem, Nehim, Naham, etc. == NHM

Check it out if you do not believe us.

[Who Knows]

>Actually, in 1 Nephi a place called Nahom is mentioned.

That is the English translation. You need to get familiar with Hebrew and other semitic languages -- they write consonants and vowels are added to the English translation.

Thus, Nahom is the same as Nehem, Nehim, Naham, etc. == NHM

Check it out if you do not believe us.

I know that. But the hebrew word NHM is not the same as the southern arabic word NHM.

hmm, i guess it could be coincidence that the spellings are similar but the names are different...

[SolarPowered]

I know that. But the hebrew word NHM is not the same as the southern arabic word NHM.

hmm, i guess it could be coincidence that the spellings are similar but the names are different...

I don't recall Nephi mentioning whether the word was Hebrew or "southern arabic". He simply writes about passing through, and tells us what the locals called the place.

[Who Knows]

I don't recall Nephi mentioning whether the word was Hebrew or "southern arabic". He simply writes about passing through, and tells us what the locals called the place.

Nephi probably should have called it Nihm, if he was calling it what the locals called it.

[SolarPowered]

Nephi probably should have called it Nihm, if he was calling it what the locals called it.

And you infer that Reformed Egyptian had vowels because, why, exactly?

[asbestosman]

And you infer that Reformed Egyptian had vowels because, why, exactly?

That's an interesting point, but I do wonder this: what about stories of Joseph Smith correcting the spelling of names when he dictated the Book of Mormon to Oliver? Were any of the misspelled names misspelled only because of incorrect vowels? Does anyone know?

[cdowis]

Your logic is a joy to behold.

JS wrote the BOM so Nephi spoke English. There can be no correlation between Nahom and NHM, BECAUSE that would mean that Nephi spoke Hebrew.

And that is impossible, BECAUSE JS wrote the BOM.

[Who Knows]

Your logic is a joy to behold.

JS wrote the BOM so Nephi spoke English. There can be no correlation between Nahom and NHM, BECAUSE that would mean that Nephi spoke Hebrew.

And that is impossible, BECAUSE JS wrote the BOM.

?

My point is, is that if Nephi called this place whatever the locals called it (Nihm), wouldn't that be how it was translated into english? Why would it be translated to Nahom if it was originally called Nihm?

I agree that Nahom would have been spelled NHM - and in Hebrew mean consolation, mourning, etc. But what does that have to do with the Southern Arabic word NHM (pronounced by the locals as Nihm) meaning stone-cutting?

[SolarPowered]

?

My point is, is that if Nephi called this place whatever the locals called it (Nihm), wouldn't that be how it was translated into english? Why would it be translated to Nahom if it was originally called Nihm?

I agree that Nahom would have been spelled NHM - and in Hebrew mean consolation, mourning, etc. But what does that have to do with the Southern Arabic word NHM (pronounced by the locals as Nihm) meaning stone-cutting?

1. We don't know how the locals pronounced NHM in 600 BC.

2. We don't know how differently Mormon might have read what Nephi wrote 1000 years earlier.

3. We don't know what process was used to insert vowels into Joseph Smith's translation. In the case of a normal translator in the present translating an unknown Semitic word, the answer would be that the vowel insertion was largely random.

[Who Knows]

1. We don't know how the locals pronounced NHM in 600 BC.

This FARMS article seems to disagree with you:

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=255

The source of the whole NHM thing is the inscriptions on a few altars which read as follows:

B-' t t r / b n/

[Brant Gardner]

Interesting discussion. Since all of it is based on suppositions about what the nature of the translation of the Book of Mormon ought to be, the arguments have an inherently sandy foundation.

An important city in China is currently referred to as Beijing and previously it was Peking. Certainly that means something - but what?

Certainly the two cannot be the same place - except they are.

[SolarPowered]

The source of the whole NHM thing is the inscriptions on a few altars which read as follows:

Actually, the source of the whole thing is the fact that there is an actual place there that has long been known as NHM. This is variously rendered into English. The above-mentioned map is said to call it "Nehem". (I couldn't actually find it on the map--I'm taking the word of the earlier poster.) The JBMS article you reference translated the tribal name as "Nihm". I have seen other renderings, as well.

The alter is merely additional evidence, as it dates from very close to the time of the Lehi party.

Also, I'm unclear as to how certain the writers of the JBMS article are about their vowels. As I implied earlier, those who translate Semitic languages into English have to supply vowels in order for the words to be pronouncable. They may or may not have any idea how the words were originally pronounced.

Also, I understand that speakers of Semitic languages are quite fluid in their vowels, because they tend not to be terribly important.

[Who Knows]

Actually, the source of the whole thing is the fact that there is an actual place there that has long been known as NHM. This is variously rendered into English. The above-mentioned map is said to call it "Nehem". (I couldn't actually find it on the map--I'm taking the word of the earlier poster.) The JBMS article you reference translated the tribal name as "Nihm". I have seen other renderings, as well.

The alter is merely additional evidence, as it dates from very close to the time of the Lehi party.

Ah, but the name at the time of Lehi's supposed arrival was Nihm - as indicated by the earliest known writings dating to the time - the altars. IOW, whatever the name is today is irrelevant, since we know the name during Lehi's time period.

Does that address your concern too Brant?

Gotta take off and start enjoying the weekend.

It's been a fun discussion. I'll check back in sometime this weekend hopefully.

[SolarPowered]

Ah, but the name at the time of Lehi's supposed arrival was Nihm - as indicated by the earliest known writings dating to the time - the altars. IOW, whatever the name is today is irrelevant, since we know the name during Lehi's time period.

Does that address your concern too Brant?

Gotta take off and start enjoying the weekend.

It's been a fun discussion. I'll check back in sometime this weekend hopefully.

I don't think we actually "know" that the vowels at that time were "Nihm", only that the consonants were "NHM".

[maklelan]

Here is the map.

http://www.geographicus.com/Merchant2/merc...-pinkerton-1818

Click on the map and you can zoom in. Just down and to the left of the "M" in Yemen you can see Nehem. Some have argued that it is a tribal name rather than a place name, but look down and to the left of the last "E" in Yemen to see the land inhabited by the "Dobean Tribe". The map here distinguishes between the two. Nehem is obviously a place name. The website mentions this map was produced in 1818 in Philadelphia, but had a very limited run in the US.

Nehem, Nehhm, Nihm and Nahom are absolutely indistinguishable when written in South Arabian. This alphabet is thought to have split from a Proto-Sinaitic alphabet around 1300 BC. The language is attested from 500 BC to about 600 AD.

The addition of vowels in modern times (by Arabs or otherwise) is purely arbitrary. The "Nihm" spelling is used because scholars normally respect the transliteration of the discovering team. I can call it Nihm, Nahom, Nuhum, Naham or Noohoom and not a person on this planet can tell me I'm wrong. To argue that the vowelling makes the connection invalid is 1) uninformed, 2) a red herring and 3) wrong.

Here is a website explaining the alphabet (this is a great website):

http://www.ancientscripts.com/s_arabian.html

and here's a poster comparing various Arabian scripts:

http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/figs-stone..._jpeg/fig02.jpg

The Sabaen script is the one employed by these altars.

[SolarPowered]

Here is the map.

http://www.geographicus.com/Merchant2/merc...-pinkerton-1818

Click on the map and you can zoom in. Just down and to the left of the "M" in Yemen you can see Nehem.

Thanks! Now I see it!

[SolarPowered]

It occurs to me that this discussion has become quite surreal. OK, suppose I were to concede your point:

OK, Joseph Smith added the wrong vowels when he translated "NHM".

OK, are you happy now? So the Book of Mormon is false because he put the wrong vowels in "NHM" when he translated it to "Nahom"?