The Popol Vuh And The Bom

[Chris Smith]

Hello Ck,

I explained my feelings about biblical influence in my last post to Dale. Biblical influence while perhaps explaining some of the correlations it will not explain all the etrabiblical correlations.

I couldn't disagree with you more. I feel that critics such as yourself do us believers a disservice by suggesting any reference to skin color can be found in the BOM. And if you think this is one of the strongest statements of racial equality..than you don't know the bom.

Go here for a thread I wrote explaining that the black skins are girdle garments..the same that can be found in the bible.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=17057&hl=

If you can answer my central question, which no one who advocates the theory you are advocating here has been able to answer, with a strong reasonable answer than perhaps I'll take your suggestion of my defamation more seriously.

I don't want to go into the many statements made in the bom that demonstrate the equality of men but I will give you a couple..

I could write a list of dozens for you.

Hi Warship,

I don't want to derail this thread by responding in full to your argument here, so I responded in the thread you linked. In the meantime, I will simply reiterate what I said about the similarity between this verse and 19th century civil rights slogans.

You should see my freference to PV IV ch. 3 and its use of "precious metals". Ornaments and crowns were made of gold and not copper as far as I know. The popol vuh mentions gold and silver but not copper at all to my knowledge. In fact gold and silver are the only metals mentioned the popol vuh as far as I can tell which leads me to believe that they would have to be the "precious metals" the author is referring to.

The translation of the PV I have been using doesn't mention gold anywhere. In any case, I think what I am remembering is that gold and silver were not popular among the Maya during the time of the BoM. They were more interested in these metals during a later era, which may be when the PV was written.

"Metals were not used in Mesoamerica until after 800 CE; then gold and silver came from the south. Alloys were not popular until the 13th century." - http://san.beck.org/11-1-Mayans,Aztecs,Incas.html

-CK

[Warship]

HI Ck,

The Olmecs were using iron ore to make mirrors long before 800 ad.

...............

I always found it odd the way gold is not seen as valuable to the region when there are countless gold artifacts and gold was dumped as offerings to the Gods into water..but whatever they say huh.

........................

The date of the text of the popol vuh may be late, but let's not forget that this is the recounting of older history and that many evidences from preconquest have been found that corroborate the antiquity of some of the material in the Popol vuh.

[Chris Smith]

HI Ck,

The Olmecs were using iron ore to make mirrors long before 800 ad.

Hi Warship,

I'm not sure that the use of "iron ore" like ilmenite, hematite, and magnetite to make mirrors and whistles equates to "metalworking". These ores might be more properly classified as stones than metals, however shiny they may be.

...............

I always found it odd the way gold is not seen as valuable to the region when there are countless gold artifacts and gold was dumped as offerings to the Gods into water..but whatever they say huh.

I have not studied the issue enough to have come to any firm conclusion one way or the other. I might be swayed if you were to provide documentation for "countless gold artifacts" that date to Book of Mormon times.

........................

The date of the text of the popol vuh may be late, but let's not forget that this is the recounting of older history and that many evidences from preconquest have been found that corroborate the antiquity of some of the material in the Popol vuh.

Again, I have not studied this subject, and so am unqualified to comment. However, I am interested in learning more, so I hope you will provide examples of such evidences or-- at the very least-- point me to a website where I can learn more.

Thanks,

-CK

[Uncle Dale]

Hi Warship,

I'm not sure that the use of "iron ore" like ilmenite, hematite, and magnetite to make mirrors and whistles equates to "metalworking". These ores might be more properly classified as stones than metals, however shiny they may be.

Then again, there is the occasional iron from meteors that is so rich in alloy metals

that it does not rust and can be turned into cultural artifacts. The same goes for

iron sulfide (fool's gold) -- which can have a very shiny natural crystaline surface.

Ancient artifacts were constructed from these two sources, even by primitive peoples

who had no iron smelting knowledge.

UD

[Chris Smith]

Dale,

This is true. Meteroite iron and other naturally occurring metals could very well have been the "precious metals" to which the Popol Vuh refers. Of course, if it is a late-date production, then this explanation is unnecessary: gold and silver are more likely referents.

I don't think that meteorite iron or pyrite solve the problems of metalworking in the BoM (which appears to decribe a full-fledged industry including smelting), but that is not the topic of this thread, so let's not go there.

-CK

[Uncle Dale]

I don't think that meteorite iron or pyrite solve the problems of metalworking in the BoM (which appears to decribe a full-fledged industry including smelting), but that is not the topic of this thread, so let's not go there.

-CK

Well -- maybe just one little off-topic piece, since Warship is elsewhere at the moment:

The manufacturing of Iron & lead was understood but was not carried on to that

extent & perfection as in Europe. A small quantity of Iron in proportion to the number

of inhabitants served to supply them with all the impliments which custom had made

necessary for their use -- By hamering & hardening their Iron they would convert it

nearly into the consistence of steal -- & fit it for the purpose of edge tools.

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/lds1886.htm#pg022a

OK -- back to our original topic now....

UD

[Warship]

U Dale,

I'll try and work on that project when I can. It may take a couple of months. In the meantime I hope you read the popul vuh, it is not a long book. I thought this would be particularly interesting to U Dale. I am glad you recognize the wider context you mentioned before.

I think for our purposes here, despite whether these two situations are influenced by Daniel...it still does not change the fact that it is still a correlation between the two texts involving similar situations and word strings.

Perhaps a look at some of the extrabiblical correlations would be better.

[Uncle Dale]

U Dale,

I'll try and work on that project when I can. It may take a couple of months. In the meantime I hope you read the popul vuh, it is not a long book. I thought this would be particularly interesting to U Dale. I am glad you recognize the wider context you mentioned before.

I think for our purposes here, despite whether these two situations are influenced by Daniel...it still does not change the fact that it is still a correlation between the two texts involving similar situations and word strings.

Perhaps a look at some of the extrabiblical correlations would be better.

I just was hit with a big foul-up in my pension, and that problem will probably be taking up the

rest of my week to straighten out. But I'll read the text as I have time and will try to at least

do some brief lurking here (if not much posting) up through the weekend.

Cheers,

Dale

[Warship]

U Dale,

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope everything sorts out well for you. I will most likely be pretty busy for awhile as well so you probably won't miss much.

Take it easy Dale

[Warship]

Ck,

The countless gold artifacts were melted down and shipped to Spain. But before that they were probably melted down by the natives, it is a Mesoamerican practice to meltdown objects and rework them ...they also did this with Jade by smoothing out its previous features and then working it anew. This implies value. In mesoamerica tumbanga (which I spaced on before, but this is actually a mixture of copper and gold) is often used for jewelry. Jewelry was a sign of wealth and status in mesoamerica then just as it is seen to be by some now. This also implies value.

reminds me of...

Alma 31

[28] Behold, O my God, their costly apparel, and their ringlets, and their bracelets, and their ornaments of gold, and all their precious things which they are ornamented with; and behold, their hearts are set upon them, and yet they cry unto thee and say -- We thank thee, O God, for we are a chosen people unto thee, while others shall perish.

Many objects would have been kept in continual use or melted down and reused. I would not expect to find a ton of abandoned metal artifacts. Scavengers would probably also have picked sites clean of metal long before the conquest. This bc the material was so non-valuable that they wanted to sell it for it to be made into a status symbol in the form of jewelry.

To the PV and and its authenticating evidences.

Here's a little something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popol_Vuh

The text of the Xim

[Chris Smith]

Ck,

The countless gold artifacts were melted down and shipped to Spain. But before that they were probably melted down by the natives, it is a Mesoamerican practice to meltdown objects and rework them ...they also did this with Jade by smoothing out its previous features and then working it anew. This implies value. In mesoamerica tumbanga (which I spaced on before, but this is actually a mixture of copper and gold) is often used for jewelry. Jewelry was a sign of wealth and status in mesoamerica then just as it is seen to be by some now. This also implies value.

reminds me of...

Many objects would have been kept in continual use or melted down and reused. I would not expect to find a ton of abandoned metal artifacts. Scavengers would probably also have picked sites clean of metal long before the conquest. This bc the material was so non-valuable that they wanted to sell it for it to be made into a status symbol in the form of jewelry.

To the PV and and its authenticating evidences.

Here's a little something.

In my original following the opening paragraph I pasted a brief description of the Popol Vuh for those who werent familiar the PV, it indicated another evidence.

I've seen the same many places, probably in the preface of my copy of the PV as well ...I don't know the exact artifacts though, sorry. I'll try to check it out.

I'll give you a reply on the other thread soon.

Warship,

Thanks. I'm not entirely convinced on either count, but I think you have provided a helpful jumping-off point for further inquiry.

God bless,

-CK

[why me]

Warship,

Thanks. I'm not entirely convinced on either count, but I think you have provided a helpful jumping-off point for further inquiry.

God bless,

-CK

But it is good to keep an open mind as we begin to search for evidence. The Popol Vuh and the Boof of Mormon do have interesting similiarities.

[T-Bone]

Interesting thread. I'm glad I came here today. I'd never heard of this book and probably never would have if I had not come here today.

Cheers,

T-Bone

[Warship]

Thought this might get things going again.

Checking the PV for things I had highlighted I ran into this

PV4ch.1

"From there, from Tul

[Uncle Dale]

Thought this might get things going again.

Checking the PV for things I had highlighted I ran into this

Kinda reminds me off something......what could it be...

It appears the PV is in agreement with the bible and the bom on what these dark skins are. Who'duh thunk it.

Notice again that the other markers of the curse are represented here as well..the shorn hair and a description of how their nakedness is covered by the adornment of war...the same context as 1kings2.

I think it is an interesting parallel -- not so much for word-strings as for thematic and possibly

theological purposes. In the Indian account, the blood on the clothing does not appear to have

been a deliberate act of staining the men's trappings for a religious or cultural purpose.

Throughout the Book of Mormon there is a repeated aversion to things being stained with blood --

and especially of weapons and people being stained with innocent blood, or with blood that might

have been averted. See the second paragraph of the BoM title-page, as well as the statement of

the three witnesses in this regard.

Spalding's one extant story also has several passages in which blood-stains are regarded with

aversion. See the underlined, color-coded pages I placed on-line today, as well as this list:

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SCIOTA/Tabulatn.htm

(item #294 plus other mentions of blood)

It is an interesting subject. I wonder if some past BoM scholar has already addressed these themes

in reporting I am unaware of?

UD

[Warship]

U Dale,

>>In the Indian account, the blood on the clothing does not appear to have

been a deliberate act of staining the men's trappings for a religious or cultural purpose.

Actually they do it for an offering to their gods (Tohil, etc).

>>Spalding's one extant story also has several passages in which blood-stains are regarded with

aversion.

That's interesting. Though I think this aversion can be rooted in the bible. But I am not positive.

The swords being stained was interesting in that I have seen it used to support the idea of Macanas in the bom. Afterall, metal swords cannot be stained with blood, they need only be wiped clean.

[Uncle Dale]

U Dale,

>>In the Indian account, the blood on the clothing does not appear to have

been a deliberate act of staining the men's trappings for a religious or cultural purpose.

Actually they do it for an offering to their gods (Tohil, etc).

>>Spalding's one extant story also has several passages in which blood-stains are regarded with

aversion.

That's interesting. Though I think this aversion can be rooted in the bible. But I am not positive.

The swords being stained was interesting in that I have seen it used to support the idea of Macanas in the bom. Afterall, metal swords cannot be stained with blood, they need only be wiped clean.

OK -- I see that now.

As for metal weapons retaining bloodstains, a friend of mine has on old Confederate cavalry saber

with what he says are bloodstains along the blunt side of the blade. It is low grade steel and was

reportedly recovered from a battlefield a fews years afetr the end of the Civil War. Then again, the

red marks might just as well be water-caused rust marks.

More later,

UD