Horses and Chariots -

[Greg Smith]

Come on, Greg, cut me some slack.  It's obvious what time frame we're talking about.

Sorry, I really did think you meant "no pre-Columbian." (One does hear that a lot, especially with claims like "no Old World plants.")

Just for reference, when are you thinking? Jaredite through Nephite/Mulekite (say 3000 BC to 500 BC)ish? Something narrower?

Footnotes are in the "endnotes" PDF:

http://farms.byu.edu/getpdf.php?filename=N...m&type=amJtcw==

BTW, can you get the footnotes to show up online?  I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, I downloaded it twice, and no footnote/reference page either time.  Sorenson's footnotes can be very interesting.

Sometimes it doesn't work with recent stuff if you don't subscribe to the print version. I've got it safely saved, though.

If you can't get it, you can e-mail me if you trust me not to fill your box with Mormon Spam, and I'll forward it. [someone from FARMS tell me quick if this violates some policy...seems unfair not to give the refs, though.]

Or, if there's a specific few you want to know, I can just post 'em here or via the board message system.

Greg

[Dan Vogel]

Ben,

Beastie wrote:

Why isn't it possible that Joseph was using an outline or guide created by someone else, adding his own thoughts along the way? He had an excellent memory, after all, and four years to work on it.

It

[exegete]

Hi Greg,

You wrote:

You misrepresented me.

No, I misunderstood you. But you claimed that my comments had "borne out" how critics carelessly read John Sorenson and the BoMor. Where is your evidence, Greg?

The other "critics" and mispresentation [sic] was in reference to the "Shoe Fits," where (as I repeat AGAIN) olive trees are mentioned as something which would be expected in the New World, which is false: misrepresenting both the Book of Mormon and Sorenson

[Zakuska]

I'm pretty sure that someone asked about barley in the New World, although I can no longer find the specific post.

Zakuska:

If I might... has not Barley been found in New Mexico?

WTC:

I'm sure a lot of barley can be found in New Mexico. It grows with great profundity.

I need to add... "During the right time frame."

[Bernard Gui]

The fact is, Tom's essay for American Apocrypha was reviewed by ... molecular biologist Dr. Simon Southerton.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

But as I documented, Deanne's remark is consistent with the Amerisraelite/Jaredite tale (1 Ne. 8:1; 16:11; 18:6, 24; Ether 1:41; 2:3)

[grego]

embarrassment:

(from among others:) http://www.bartleby.com/61/12/E0101200.html

So, anyone "embarrassed" now?

Dan Vogel wrote:

The fact is, Tom's essay for American Apocrypha was reviewed by multiple specialists, including sociologist Dr. Armand Mauss and molecular biologist Dr. Simon Southerton.

This was a great chuckle for me, too.

Regardless of credentials, anytime there could be bias, the reviewer shouldn't be relied on too heavily. Common sense to me. If you feel that a husband wouldn't be biased towards his wife, ok. The point isnot whether one COULD or not, but whether one WOULD/ MIGHT.

Dan Vogel wrote:

So which is it, Greg?

[beastie]

Ironic, especially since these two statements were written just like that.

I don't fault you, though. I think what you meant was, "There is NO evidence of any pre-columbian Jerusalem/ Old World/etc. contact with the New World."

In the context of our conversation, my meaning should have been clear. Context is the problem with Sorenson's imprecision. He uses "evidences" like linguistics in a conversation about whether or not there is evidence supporting the claims for the BoM. So, without being specifically told otherwise, readers assume that this linguistic evidence has something to do with the advanced metallurgy described in the BoM. It doesn't.

Of course there was precolumbian contact in the way you, and at times Sorenson, seem to be using the term. After all, that's where human beings first migrated from to the New World.

I haven't seen the term precolumbian contact used to describe events that happened within the general range of that first human migration. Have you?

and regarding what I view as the BoM time frame - 3000 BC to 600 AD is accepted by many, including Sorenson. The 3000 BC date for the Jaredites presents a huge problem, however, because that date is just too early for the social stratifcation described. Brant insists the date for Jaredites is really 1500 BC. Sorenson argues against that date because of the "tower" issue.

[Bernard Gui]

I'm pretty sure that someone asked about barley in the New World, although I can no longer find the specific post.

Matheny states:

It is true that in 1982 a native American species of barley was found in an archaeological context dating to about CE 900 in Arizona.

[beastie]

"seeds of every kind"

I assume if the immigrants found the plant to be useful, they would have included those seeds.

[Bernard Gui]

"seeds of every kind"

I assume if the immigrants found the plant to be useful, they would have included those seeds.

That's not what I asked.

Did the Lehites bring barley seeds with them?

What seeds did the Lehites bring with them?

How large was that first Lehite farm?

What scientific evidence would remain from a small-scale farming operation?

What is the evidence that they did not resort to native food production?

Bernard

[beastie]

Bernard,

I'm already familiar with the explanation defenders give for these problems, and am not particularly interested in spending time delving into the specifics for the plant problem. The reason it was even mentioned was due to the fact that Greg found Matheny's essay weak on that point. I did not bring it up out of any particular interest of my own. If you want to go ahead and give your explanation for why there is no Old World imported plants in the Mesoamerica during the specified time frame, go for it. It will be just one more to add to the list of explanations for the anachronisms of the text.

[Bernard Gui]

Bernard,

I'm already familiar with the explanation defenders give for these problems, and am not particularly interested in spending time delving into the specifics for the plant problem. The reason it was even mentioned was due to the fact that Greg found Matheny's essay weak on that point. I did not bring it up out of any particular interest of my own. If you want to go ahead and give your explanation for why there is no Old World imported plants in the Mesoamerica during the specified time frame, go for it. It will be just one more to add to the list of explanations for the anachronisms of the text.

I'm not offering explanations. Delving into the specifics seems to

cut the foundation from your argument, so I understand your

reluctance to answer a few simple quesitons. I'll settle for an answer to just one:

Did the Lehites bring barley seeds to the New World?

So, it's ok to point out supposed anachronisms but pointless to

explain them. I see.

Bernard

[beastie]

I'm not offering explanations. Delving into the specifics seems to

cut the foundation from your argument, so I understand your

reluctance to answer a few simple quesitons. I'll settle for an answer to just one:

Did the Lehites bring barley seeds to the New World?

So, it's ok to point out supposed anachronisms but pointless to

explain them. I see.

Good grief, I already referred to the scripture that stated the Lehites brought "seeds of every kind". I assume if barley was useful to them that they would have brought it.

The idea that I'm unwilling to delve into specifics would be laughable to anyone who has read my past posts on topics that interest me. I can go on about specifics ad nauseum. My point is that this particular topic - of plants - doesn't really interest me. I've never cited it as one of the problems I find most significant in the BoM. Hence, my lack of interest. I don't really care about the barley issue.

Now, if you want to go into specifics, why don't you tell me how it is that Judeo/Christians could be the elite leaders of some of the most precocious and influential cities in Mesoamerica - such as La Venta, San Lorenzo, and Kaminaljuyu during the formative periods of those cities, and not have any impact on the social evolution of those same regions? THAT I'm interested in, and find it far more significant in terms of the BoM story.

In "real" Mesoamerican history, religion, politics, and economics were one seamless whole. When social stratification increased and destabilized the formerly egalitarian smaller communities, the Mesoamericans "invented" the idea of an elite leadership that could access supernatural power from the otherworld. The importance of that idea in ancient Mesoamerica cannot be overstated, IMO. Yet, according to the BoM and LGTists, the same cities that helped to formulate that very idea which spread throughout mesoamerica were actually Judeo/Christian. It makes no sense to me. Brant, in the past, has explained that the Lehites were made leaders for other reasons, such as access to a new technology or material success. That still doesn't make sense because if they had become the elite, powerful leaders due to reasons other than religion during the formatitive period of the development of the idea of kingship in Mesoamerica, they should have had some impact on the evolution of that idea. Instead, every bit of evidence relating to the elite leadership points to the pan-regional religious ideas of ancient Mesoamerica, and not to Judeo/christianity.

If you really want to delve into details with me, this would interest me enough to engage. Barley? Naw. Elite kingship in the formative period of ancient mesoamericans being held by Judeo/Christians? Now THAT is interesting.

[Bernard Gui]

I'm not offering explanations. Delving into the specifics seems to

cut the foundation from your argument, so I understand your

reluctance to answer a few simple quesitons. I'll settle for an answer to just one:

Did the Lehites bring barley seeds to the New World?

So, it's ok to point out supposed anachronisms but pointless to

explain them. I see.

Good grief, I already referred to the scripture that stated the Lehites brought "seeds of every kind". I assume if barley was useful to them that they would have brought it...

If you really want to delve into details with me, this would interest me enough to engage. Barley? Naw. Elite kingship in the formative period of ancient mesoamericans being held by Judeo/Christians? Now THAT is interesting.

So, there is no evidence the Lehites brought

barley seeds to the New World. That's all I wanted

to know. You may continue with Elite Kingships.

Bernard

[beastie]

Now it's my turn.

Is there any evidence of the barley native to the New World in ancient Mesoamerica?

[poulsenll]

Now it's my turn.

Is there any evidence of the barley native to the New World in ancient Mesoamerica?

Yes. Reported in Science 83 by Adams. In Hohokum indian ruins in Arizona. Some of it was planted and produced a harvestable crop. Classified as domesticated.

Larry P

[exegete]

Hi Larry,

Beastie specifically asked about domesticated barley in Mesoamerica, not Arizona.

Hi Bernard,

Since when did you become even remotely qualified to assess Simon's credentials? (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

You ask:

What seeds did the Nephites and Jaredites bring with them?

I don't know the seeds by name, but the BoMor describes them as "all manner of seeds of every kind ... grain of every kind ... seeds of fruit of every kind" (1 Ne. 8:1), "seed of every kind" (1 Ne. 16:11), "seed of the earth of every kind" (Ether 1:41), and "seeds of every kind" (Ether 1:41).

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and conjecture that "all" and "every" are ancient loan-words for "bazillion."

How large was the Lehite farm?

I don't know the precise dimensions, but the BoMor does say that the Lehites planted "all [their] seeds into the earth" and that "all [their] seeds ... did grow exceedingly" (1 Ne. 18:24).

So, since they planted "all [their] seeds into the earth," I would think that the Lehite farm would have to be big enough to hold

"all manner of seeds of every kind ... grain of every kind ... seeds of fruit of every kind" (1 Ne. 8:1) and "seed of every kind" (1 Ne. 16:11).

I'm going to go out on yet another a limb and conjecture that even though the BoMor narrator doesn't provide a word for the size of the Lehite farm, if he had, it would likely be an ancient loan-word for the portmanteau "ginormous."

Hi grego,

Thanks for your reply.

You wrote:

So, anyone "embarrassed" now?

Does "perplexed" count? How about "very, very perplexed"?

Speaking of embarrassment, you mistakenly address me as "Dan Vogel" throughout your post, and, contrary to some, Dan and I are in fact two separate sentient beings.

*yawn!* (Did you say something about review process?)

Kidding aside, Simon Southerton is eminently qualified to evaluate genetic issues, as evidenced by his latest response to FAIR/FARMS author, geneticist Ryan Parr (S. Southerton, "An Apologetic Shipwreck: A Response to Ryan Parr").

You continued:

Either or both might work well for me. Is it horse as a horse, or horse as a tapir?

You evidently missed Greg's clarification

[beastie]

This makes barley sound like an important crop:

Mosiah 7:22

And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.

Even more - barley is specifically mentioned in their standardized monetary system. (another anachronism)

Alma 11

7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.

8 Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine.

9 And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.

10 And a limnah of gold was the value of them all.

11 And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums.

12 And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums.

13 And an onti was as great as them all.

14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning

[Greg Smith]

Quoth Brent:

You wrote:

You misrepresented me.

No, I misunderstood you.

Yes, you misunderstood. You then proceeded to misrepresent me.

After all, if you hadn't, I could hardly tell I had been misunderstood, could I?

But you claimed that my comments had "borne out" how critics carelessly read John Sorenson and the BoMor. Where is your evidence, Greg?

I said, actually, that you had carelessly read MY rendition of Sorenson, in a similar fashion as "Shoe Fits" seems to have carelessly read Sorenson and the Book of Mormon. As for evidence, I produced it, you just don't accept it -->

You're mistaken. Deanne only notes that olive trees are mentioned in the BoMor; she makes no assessment as to whether we'd expect them in the New World,

Now this is a good one! So, Deanne (in an article on the limited Mesoamerican geography) just happens to mention olive trees, not for any reason that has anything to do with the local model, but just so we know that they were mentioned (gasp!) in the Old World (which is hardly news or worthy of comment?) Right. Riiiight.

Please, pull the other leg. It has bells on. She messed up. That's no sin; the sad thing is refusing to simply admit it and disclaim it.

Look at the cite:

Many economically important plants are mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and some have proved difficult to locate in a Mesoamerican [p.301] setting...The processing of grains, suggested here, is confirmed elsewhere. The Jaredites are said to have had "all manner of fruit, and of grain" (9:17), and grain is noted as one means of gaining wealth (10:12). Later specific plants, including corn, barley, neas, sheum, and the olive tree, are mentioned, as are products which imply the existence of specific plants, including "fine linen," vineyards, and wine presses (1 Ne. 13:7-8; Jacob 5; Mosiah 11:15)...[large snip] But thus far no Old World plants have been identified by the presence of their pollens or other remains. [p. 300-302]

Anyone who can believe that this passage says that olive trees have nothing to do with the Mesoamerican setting, or that Deanne

[beastie]

Prolonged effort has been expended to distract us from the elephant in the room. The messenger has, however, been thoroughly riddled with bullet holes.

Of course you had to shoot through Sorenson to get to her....

[Greg Smith]

Prolonged effort has been expended to distract us from the elephant in the room. The messenger has, however, been thoroughly riddled with bullet holes.

Of course you had to shoot through Sorenson to get to her....

Ah, the bullets were everywhere.

Hear now the words of the parable.

I was the messenger.

But, I'll live. More's the pity.

Greg

[grego]

First, my sincere apologies to exegete for such a loud mistake. Yes, I am embarrassed.

exegete wrote:

I'm unfamiliar with John Sorenson's "chosen out" theory of BoMor horticulture (in fact, other than your initial agreement with me, I have absolutely no clue what you're saying here). Where can I read something on this "chosen out" theory? (And if you promise not to bite my head off, you misspelled Deanne's surname.)

I am also unfamiliar with his "chosen out" theory--if he has one (and I'm not sure why you would read it as being his). It's just another possiblity to consider, though. When you have crops competing for your work, you plant the ones that grow best over time, bring you money, and/ or that you eat. If the crops from the seeds you brought with you aren't up there in these ways, as compared to other crops from seeds that you brought, or native crops, those others get planted in their place.

exegete wrote:

Hi Bernard,

Since when did you become even remotely qualified to assess Simon's credentials?

[Bernard Gui]

Hi Bernard,

Since when did you become even remotely qualified to assess Simon's credentials? (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

You ask:

What seeds did the Nephites and Jaredites bring with them?

I don't know the seeds by name, but the BoMor describes them as "all manner of seeds of every kind ... grain of every kind ... seeds of fruit of every kind" (1 Ne. 8:1), "seed of every kind" (1 Ne. 16:11), "seed of the earth of every kind" (Ether 1:41), and "seeds of every kind" (Ether 1:41).

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and conjecture that "all" and "every" are ancient loan-words for "bazillion."

How large was the Lehite farm?

I don't know the precise dimensions, but the BoMor does say that the Lehites planted "all [their] seeds into the earth" and that "all [their] seeds ... did grow exceedingly" (1 Ne. 18:24).

So, since they planted "all [their] seeds into the earth," I would think that the Lehite farm would have to be big enough to hold

"all manner of seeds of every kind ... grain of every kind ... seeds of fruit of every kind" (1 Ne. 8:1) and "seed of every kind" (1 Ne. 16:11).

I'm going to go out on yet another a limb and conjecture that even though the BoMor narrator doesn't provide a word for the size of the Lehite farm, if he had, it would likely be an ancient loan-word for the portmanteau "ginormous."

exegete: If it's that important to you, what is your degree in?

Well, I am somewhat educated with a MA in

music history and 35 years teaching experience at

the college and high school level, and I know how

to read, but, of course,

I'm no expert in molecular biology. Neither is Tom.

Neither are you. (couldn't resist )

However, I'm sure Simon is eminently qualified to review his

good friend Tom's paper. Maybe he did it over a dinner with

Tom. How is Baby Autumn? Is Tom teaching his Native

American students the truth about their DNA yet?

Have Tom and Simon recanted that bit about ethnic

genocide yet?

We don't know what seeds the Lehites brought

to America.

A small 2500-year-old family farm would be hard to find, hard to identify,

and leave no biological traces regardless of how many bazillion

godzillian seeds were planted in it.

Bernard

[exegete]

Hi Bernard,

Thanks for acknowledging that you have no expertise in molecular biology, but I couldn't give a kitten's fur ball on what you think about my scholarship; as for Tom's scholarship, you don't hold a candle to him, my friend