The Bible versus the Book of Mormon

[Dale]

I was talking about Paul the author of many New Testament writings. I was inspired by the claim of anti-Mormons the Book of Mormon is a Testament of Another Jesus. So by saying it's another Testament of Paul's Jesus I was affirming the Jesus of Paul & the Book of Mormon was one & the same. The book testifies of Paul's Jesus.

[Moksha]

I was talking about Paul the author of many New Testament writings. I was inspired by the claim of anti-Mormons the Book of Mormon is a Testament of Another Jesus. So by saying it's another Testament of Paul's Jesus I was affirming the Jesus of Paul & the Book of Mormon was one & the same. The book testifies of Paul's Jesus.

My mistake, I was talking about the Jesus of all followers of the Mormon Church.

[Markk]

Hi Brant,

Thanks for the response.

The directions listed in the text are the English coordinates we find familiar. How those match with the geography or how they might translate culturally different original directions is a subject for analysis, not declaration.

So then, when JS looked into his hat or the U&T and saw words that said "North, South, East, or West", it is only for our culture? They really have no absolute at all, they are just more or less thrown on there for filler? Or if JS actually looked at the plates and chose words for translation, he just threw those words in for the heck of it?

So when reading LDS scripture it should be "analized" and not interpreted as a absolute truth from God. So is it safe to say that the BoM is true..." only as far as it is analized correctly"?

At the moment, there are a couple of ways of reading the geography of the Book of Mormon

What are those ways? And how did you come to the conclusion that this river basin was indeed the center of the BoM story?

and certainly not one that alters the way we attempt to correlate the text to the archaeological data.

What is that way, how do you begin the process?

Mark

John 1:12

[Brant Gardner]

Mark:

There is quite a bit of literature written on these topics. As for the correlation between the Sidon and the Grijalva, Poulsen has an analysis on his site. You seem to have missed it. Sorenson's discussion is in An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon. At the moment, those are the only two geographies that I think are reasonable reconstructions Sorenson's has had more criticism and debate than Poulsen's, but Poulsen's hasn't been out long enough for serious critiques to have been developed.

Both of those sources are much better at the geography than I am, I refer you to them.

[Markk]

Hi Brant,

That is such a cop out Brant. These are important questions you should be able to discuss. Do you know what you believe about the LGT? Have you ever examined what you believe about the LGT? By not answering my questions with any substance makes me wonder.

Let me ask you this, aside from BoM geography. Can the current translation of the BoM be interpreted as a absolute, and why, or why not....fair question?

Mark

John 1:12

[poulsenll]

Hello everybody,

I seldom frequent these boards but I noticed a significant increase in the traffic on my website and traced it to this thread. I am not an apologist per se and have no desire to enter into the disscussion of this thread. I read Brant's critique and found it accurately describes my view of the current state of anti-mormon efforts. Enough said.

How many seas are there? There are a several answers to your question and they all depend upon understanding history, anthropology and how people write.

The most obvious answer to your question is that there were four. Our directional system has four main directions. The Mesoamerican typically had five, but the fifth was the center. Surrounding the center was a square, with the salient points at what we would call NW, NE, SW, and SE. The world was a square with four sides. Conceptually, there was an ocean on each side. The Aztec word for "world" was "surrounded by water."

Brant,

More correctly, they thought of it as a rectangle with the corner points aligned with the sunrises and sunsets on the longest and shortest days of the year. This concept goes all the way back to Olmec culture and would have been that passed on to the Nephites by the Mulekites in the Land of Zarahemla. It is still in common use in the Mayan culture even in our day.

There is some indication in the text, brought out in my analysis of the directional references in the BoM, that the Nephites used a mixture of precise N,E,W and S coordinates with the more imprecise directions used in the Mesoamerican culture from the time of the Olmecs to the present day.

The expected frequency of occurance of each direction based on a view of the land as a square would be symetrical with each occuring 25 % of the time. This is the result when calculated using only north, east, west and south references. However, when refereces to Northward, Eastward, Westward and Southward are included, the distribution is that for a rectangular view of the land. It appears that Joseph Smith understood this difference and translated accordingly. For the data and my analysis see my website.

Joseph Smith could not have known about this difference in the precolumbian view of directionality from the way we view the land in our day. Granted, in his day they were in a transition state between viewing the land as a rectangle with north and south orientation and the older system of viewing it based on metes and bounds where areas were described based on the corners of a square. However, he had no way of knowing that the Mesoamerican concept was based on a rectangle rather than a square, an error which still occurs frequently on some websites dedicated to Mayan cosmology.

Larry P

[solomarineris]

Daniel Peterson

Evidence and analysis might help us, though, more than mere assertion does. Take pity on us, and demonstrate your claim.

DP

How many times it has to be demonstrated to you (by over 95%) archeologist, paleontologists, scientists alike that there were no horses, no barley, no elephants, no mass migration of Israelites that you will take into account reality?

I don't know what else the real world can do to convince you brother.

[urroner]

Daniel Peterson

Evidence and analysis might help us, though, more than mere assertion does. Take pity on us, and demonstrate your claim.

DP

How many times it has to be demonstrated to you (by over 95%) archeologist, paleontologists, scientists alike that there were no horses, no barley, no elephants, no mass migration of Israelites that you will take into account reality?

I don't know what else the real world can do to convince you brother.

How can somebody demonstrate that something didn't ever happen? Can anybody demonstrate that Jesus was never resurrected? People can demonstrate that there is no evidence of no horses in America 2600 years ago. The use of the logic of "lack of proof is proof of lack" is a logical fallacy.

Besides DP didn't say there was a mass migration of Israelites, and there is proof of barley if America.

[solomarineris]

urroner

The use of the logic of "lack of proof is proof of lack" is a logical fallacy.

Remind me to throw away my NG periodicals, and other scientific books regarding this subject and stack it up with FAIR library instead.

Thanks for the advice

[urroner]

solomarineris, this is the last time I'm going to remind you to throw away your NG periodicals, and other scientific books and stack it up with FAIR material.

So solo, do you believe that lack of proof is proof of lack?

[Daniel Peterson]

DP

How many times it has to be demonstrated to you  (by over 95%) archeologist, paleontologists, scientists alike that there were no horses, no barley, no elephants, no mass migration of Israelites that you will take into account reality?

I don't know what else the real world can do to convince you brother.

The horse and elephant questions are still open.

There was barley.

I don't believe in a mass migration of Israelites to ancient America.

Welcome to the real world, brother.

[rameumptom]

If you pick up a current copy of Biblical Archaeological Review (Jul/Aug 06), you'll see articles discussing the problem of combining the Bible as history and archaeology. While the Bible is rather accurate in its details going back to the 8-9th centuries BC, we have problems going back before that.

They are only now finding what is believed to be David's palace - even though it was known to be in a very limited area of the world: called Jerusalem! This area has been dug in and combed over by more archaeologists over time, than all of the Americas have had over the same period of time.

Given that, why should we expect to have found everything mentioned in the BoM already? As it is, Mesoamerican archaeology has mostly concentrated on the Aztec and Mayan civilizations. Very little has been done on the pre-Mayan or Olmec civilizations, and these are the ones that fit the time period of the Nephites and Jaredites.

If we are so impatient to find horses and elephants in Mesoamerica, to the point of declaring the BoM dead; then we should rip the books of Genesis-2 Kings out of our Old Testaments, because the Levant has been under archaeological scrutiny for a much longer time and we still haven't found Moses, Joshua did NOT destroy Jericho, and there's no evidence of the patriarchs. Noah's flood did not occur, and the earth is much older than Adam's 6 or 7000 years.

So, either we negate a big chunk of the Bible - upon which much of Judaism, Islam, AND Christianity are established (why have Jesus, if Adam didn't fall?); or we realize that absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[Jerubaal]

Daniel Peterson

Evidence and analysis might help us, though, more than mere assertion does. Take pity on us, and demonstrate your claim.

DP

How many times it has to be demonstrated to you (by over 95%) archeologist, paleontologists, scientists alike that there were no horses, no barley, no elephants, no mass migration of Israelites that you will take into account reality?

I don't know what else the real world can do to convince you brother.

gj rezzing this thread.

If I am not mistaken, was there not a pygmy mastadon discovered on an island off the coast of southern california that dates to about 2000 bc?

[TrespassersW]

solomarineris:

How many times it has to be demonstrated to you (by over 95%) archeologist, paleontologists, scientists alike that there were no horses, no barley, no elephants, no mass migration of Israelites that you will take into account reality?

I would hope that if I were to challenge someone to come into the "real world" over their disagreement on a particular issue, that I would first sufficiently familiarize myself with the issue under discussion.

There were horses. There were elephants. This is not in dispute. The "archeologist, paleontologists, scientists alike" that you refer to are all in agreement on this. What is in dispute is when, exactly, these species died out. If you have some hard evidence about exactly when either species became completely extinct, then by all means, present it for us. Otherwise, I think it's a bit silly to accuse others of denying reality for believing that a species might have survived a bit longer than the fossil record (or that portion of it that has been discovered so far) indicates.

[solomarineris]

urroner

So solo, do you believe that lack of proof is proof of lack?

No, the only ones that lack commmon sense

Daniel Peterson

I don't believe in a mass migration of Israelites to ancient America

For a minute you could fool me brother, when I was converted in 70's all the Lamanites were emigrated from land of Israel, which included Maori's, Tongan's and Navajo's. In 1980 Temple Square was running the movie "Christ in America" as Quetzalcoatl was depicted as White birded man, i.e. Christ.

Am I older than you DP? (Which really doesn't matter but it could count for the ignorance)

Jerubbaal

If I am not mistaken, was there not a pygmy mastadon discovered on an island off the coast of southern california that dates to about 2000 bc?

If you read the BoM, the elephants, Horses, Chariots were depicted in abundance like a scene from King Darius' &Alexander the Great wars, and yet isn't it bother you we find no evidence about? None.

PS: I spent good part of my life hiking in Colorado Plateau, mostly in UT and some in AZ. Everywhere I hiked or wandered I found the traces of more than 50 distinct Native Cultures. How can I assert this? Easy; all I have to do is look at their Petroglyph/Pictograph/Pottery/Basket-making records.

I'm a very visual person, to a fault, you can give me all testimony you want, if you do not have anything to back it up, it shall remain a fantasy.

[Jerubaal]

urroner

So solo, do you believe that lack of proof is proof of lack?

No, the only ones that lack commmon sense

Daniel Peterson

I don't believe in a mass migration of Israelites to ancient America

For a minute you could fool me brother, when I was converted in 70's all the Lamanites were emigrated from land of Israel, which included Maori's, Tongan's and Navajo's. In 1980 Temple Square was running the movie "Christ in America" as Quetzalcoatl was depicted as White birded man, i.e. Christ.

Am I older than you DP? (Which really doesn't matter but it could count for the ignorance)

Jerubbaal

If I am not mistaken, was there not a pygmy mastadon discovered on an island off the coast of southern california that dates to about 2000 bc?

If you read the BoM, the elephants, Horses, Chariots were depicted in abundance like a scene from King Darius' &Alexander the Great wars, and yet isn't it bother you we find no evidence about? None.

PS: I spent good part of my life hiking in Colorado Plateau, mostly in UT and some in AZ. Everywhere I hiked or wandered I found the traces of more than 50 distinct Native Cultures. How can I assert this? Easy; all I have to do is look at their Petroglyph/Pictograph/Pottery/Basket-making records.

I'm a very visual person, to a fault, you can give me all testimony you want, if you do not have anything to back it up, it shall remain a fantasy.

People claim that millions of buffalo used to roam the plains, but they are nowhere to be sign. Aside from the occasional bone (that must have really been planted there) there is no evidence that they were ever there! Conspiracy!

I'm just joking around. There is evidence of the buffalo, thing thing is though, that there isn't that much evidence of it left, and that's after only about 150 years.

[TrespassersW]

solomarineris:

If you read the BoM, the elephants, Horses, Chariots were depicted in abundance like a scene from King Darius' &Alexander the Great wars

Really? Does it? Let's take a look...

The one-and-only mention of the word "elephants" in the Book of Mormon is in Ether 9:19.

19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

I must have missed it. Could you please point out where it describes them as being in "abundance"? Could you show me where they were used in any kind of warfare?

Horses are mentioned several times, including one place (early on in the Nephite settlement) where it describes them as raising "many horses". But I don't see where they were ridden, or used in warfare, so I must be missing the part that conjures up that scene in your mind. Could you point me to it, maybe?

... and yet isn't it bother you we find no evidence about? None.

Actually, there is plenty of evidence for both American horses and American mastodons (not just the pygmy versions, either). Could you maybe tell us exactly when these species went extinct? And, in the case of elephants, when exactly does the Book of Mormon require their presence in the Americas?