How does the Local Geographic Theory

[juliann]

Don't blame me for these problems. I neither wrote the book nor received divine instruction about it. Take it up with those who did.

ZZZZzzzzzzzz You are the only one concerned about "them". The rest of us do not and did not expect "prophets" to come up with the cure for cancer, put together the first expedition for the moon, solve the puzzle of Big Bang theory, discover new galaxies, teach us how to time travel........

Go back to your comics, Rollo. The rest of us are content to live in a messy and unpredictable world that makes us have to learn new stuff!

[Rollo Tomasi]

Typical Rollo....leave out all pertinent info and throw in "witnesses" as if it is all decided. Don't mention that one of the very few writings from JS himself, a letter to Emma, on the very day of this event says nothing of Zelph...nor does JS ever use that name.

Rollo is a master at this hide and seek game...no matter how many times he gets his head handed to him because he purposefully omits critical information....he just waits for a new day to start up with the same junk as if nothing had ever happened.

As you well know, several members of Zion's Camp left accounts of Joseph's vision about Zelph (are you implying none of this happened?). Although Joseph's letter to Emma did not mention Zelph by name, he does speak of finding "bones and skulls" as "proof" of the BofM, when writing to Emma that he was "wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls and bones as proof of its divine authenticity." (emphasis mine). And where did this occur? Mesoamerica? 'Fraid not. It was many thousands of miles away ... in Illinois. Try again, my dear.

[juliann]

I could understand that given that we have new information that it makes less sense than it did previously, but to say that it makes NO SENSE is to discredit all the work and study and faith of those who went before us. That was the sole point of my question.

I agree with you. We have the benefit of other people's accumulated knowledge and we need to be careful not to demand that others be held to a standard that did not include what McConkie referred to as "further enlightenment" when he did a 180 after the 1978 revelation.

[juliann]

'Fraid not.  It was many thousands of miles away ... in Illinois.  Try again, my dear.

No. You try it again. In a new thread. Having a hard time holding your own with this topic to have to throw in that worn out but hopeful old anti chestnut.

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=202

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...1&hl=Zelph&st=0

[GDTeacher]

Thank you for your thoughtful questions.

It would seem that when a vast majority of church members understand and embrace the LGT that we can sweep many of these issues under the rug.  For now, most members are unaware of LGT and understand the hemispheric model to be correct.

Run an experiment. Ask at least 10 active and believing Mormons what they think about it. You will probably have to explain the options to most of them and why it matters. It takes about 2 to 3 minutes at most. Then ask them if the LGT troubles them. You will be hard pressed to find one member who will not say something along the lines of "hmmm, never thought about it...yeah, that makes sense." I talked to more than that...I only found one person who was unwilling to consider a LGT.

I would agree that once most members understood LGT they would not have a problem with it. This avoids the issue though. The issue is not whether or not they will eventually accept it, the issue is why they don't know about it now.

To use your Amish paradigm, perhaps we are looking for the new order LDS to arise that more readily accepts advances in scholarship.

[Confidential Informant]

Are you implying that our prophets and leaders have been nonsensical? Or is it that most members have been nonsensical in their interpretation of what we have been taught?

Nope, just wrong on this one point, which is unimportant in regards to salvation or exaltation. As Juliann has noted, there seems to be this demand that we conform ourselves to the fundamentalist mindset, attribuiting inerrantist status to quotes from the past, even when we aren't quite sure who or what is being quoted.

Fortunately, many of those same leaders were not nearly as fundamentalistic in their thinking.

"this alleged 'revelation' has dominated all our thinking, and influenced all our conclusions upon the subject of Book of Mormon geography. Whereas, if this is not a revelation, the physical description relative to the contour of the lands occupied by the Jaredites and Nephites, that being principally that two large bodies of land were joined by a narrow neck of land

[Who Knows]

Of course no one expects prophets to be perfect, have a cure for cancer, explain evolution, etc.

My problem is that this chruch is built on the BOM - it's the keystone of the religion. Thus, when speaking about the BOM, I'd expect prophets to know what they're talking about, and not merely 'guessing'. But maybe that's just me...

[juliann]

Wouldn't it have been wonderful if the LGT had been adopted and promoted regularly back in the 1930's. If it had, many of the questions that arise today in the early 21st century would be mute.

My "if only" was the priesthood ban....it never should have happened and I think that has caused us more grief than anything.

As annoying as it can be (even embarrassing) the more educated antis have actually assisted us in pushing past our preconceived notions that we have so comfortably hung onto...and probably would have continued to do so. When all the dust settles, it will be a plus for us. I love Mormon theology because it is so pliable....we really can make our own if we do not try to gain followings or preach our own nonsense. What I have learned on the message boards is how difficult this is for the unpliable, however. Those who leave angry are those who have close to fundamentalistic expectations and are not willing to move beyond that. I found the thread that asked if we had a low or high view of scripture very instructive. Even a very right wing Mormon that I usually disagree with was right there with the rest of us on middle ground. A not unreasonable but sometimes hostile exmo was close to the inerrant end (as a TBM). So it is always disappointing that the ultra conservative edge of Mormonism continues to drop off (especially as they tend to be the more vocal and angry ones who feel tricked that the church wasn't really Santa Clause) but I'm wondering if it can be avoided.

[Confidential Informant]

Of course no one expects prophets to be perfect, have a cure for cancer, explain evolution, etc.

My problem is that this chruch is built on the BOM - it's the keystone of the religion. Thus, when speaking about the BOM, I'd expect prophets to know what they're talking about, and not merely 'guessing'. But maybe that's just me...

And at what part of the Book of Mormon is geography ever presented as a salvific issue? Certainly if it was so important then Mormon would have made sure we knew exactly where hthey were.

The message of the B of M is spiritual and doctinal not geographical. Those are the teachings that form the cornorstone (the keystone is the D&C) of the Church. Why would God ever bother with revelations about geography that serve no salvific purpose.

You are simply aping the fundamentalist mindset. How many times do you need to be told, MORMONS ARE NOT FUNDAMENTALISTS! So stop acting like we are.

Do you believe Isaiah was a prophet? Do you suppose that because he was a prophet he should have known the world was round and not held up by pillars, etc?

C.I.

[Who Knows]

Do you just not agree with anything the prophets say? Or do you pick and choose?

When did the D&C become the keystone? Joseph Smith said the BOM was the keystone. Are you implying this was his opinion again?

Again, with Isaiah, you're talking about the world being round, evolution, cure for cancer, etc.

I'm talking specifically about the BOM - THE KEYSTONE OF MORMON RELIGION. I assume when prophets talk about, and bear their testimony about it, they know what they're talking about, and they're not merely guessing.

[juliann]

Of course no one expects prophets to be perfect, have a cure for cancer, explain evolution, etc.

My problem is that this chruch is built on the BOM - it's the keystone of the religion. Thus, when speaking about the BOM, I'd expect prophets to know what they're talking about, and not merely 'guessing'. But maybe that's just me...

Explain to me the difference in a prophet being an expert in anthropology, ancient languages, geography, all physical sciences to know "what they are talking about" with the BOM and their being able to explain "evolution".

You are drawing arbitary lines in the sand to suit your idea of what a "prophet" should be.

[juliann]

I'm talking specifically about the BOM - THE KEYSTONE OF MORMON RELIGION. I assume when prophets talk about, and bear their testimony about it, they know what they're talking about, and they're not merely guessing.

So for you a prophet has to know everything from all ages to all ages? Stop avoiding the question.

[Rollo Tomasi]

What year would you like us to go back to,  Rollo?  Can you pick one?  175 years?

No, the current year will suffice. Perhaps you should go read what is in the current curriculum for CES students -- specifically, p. 136 of the CES manual for Religion 121 and 122, which quotes at length the 1975 GC talk by Marion G. Romney (quoted above by another poster) about the NY hill being the BofM Cumorah/Ramah. Or jump over to p. 13, where the current manual quotes McConkie, in reference to 1 Nephi 13 and 3 Nephi 21, for "the United States described as a Gentile Nation." On that same page of the current manual, Joseph F. Smith is quoted, in reference to 1 Nephi 13:15-19, about the establishment of "[t]his great American nation." Of course, the current manual, quoting SWK, also discusses the Pilgrims, U.S. Revolutionary War (referencing Valley Forge), etc. Oh, and don't forget to check out the chart on p. 161 in the current manual, which identifies many of Nephi's visions of the latter days as relating to the U.S.

If you get tired of this, pop over to p. 68 in the current manual called Gospel Principles (used to teach the Sunday School class for ALL investigators and new members), which includes this as a sign of the last days:

The Lamanites Will Become a Great People

The Lord said that when His coming was near, the Lamanites would become a righteous and respected people.

[juliann]

Again, with Isaiah, you're talking about the world being round, evolution, cure for cancer, etc.

I'm talking specifically about the BOM - THE KEYSTONE OF MORMON RELIGION.

And the Bible is not the "keystone" (whatever you are loading onto that word) of Christianity? Do you want to try for a single standard here?

[Who Knows]

Of course no one expects prophets to be perfect, have a cure for cancer, explain evolution, etc.

My problem is that this chruch is built on the BOM - it's the keystone of the religion.  Thus, when speaking about the BOM, I'd expect prophets to know what they're talking about, and not merely 'guessing'.  But maybe that's just me...

Explain to me the difference in a prophet being an expert in anthropology, ancient languages, geography, all physical sciences to know "what they are talking about" with the BOM and their being able to explain "evolution".

You are drawing arbitary lines in the sand to suit your idea of what a "prophet" should be.

I'm sorry, I'm not really following you.

Again, I'll say this.

The BOM is the keystone of mormonism

The prophet is the president/leader of mormonism

When the prophet talks about the keystone, I would think he should know what he's talking about, and not just guessing.

Example:

Windows is the keystone to Microsoft Inc.

Bill Gates is the leader of Microsoft

When Bill Gates talks about windows, I would think he should know what he's talking about, and not just guessing.

[Rollo Tomasi]

You are the only one concerned about "them".

...

Go back to your comics, Rollo.

Given your rabid reaction to anyone challenging the LGT, it would appear you certainly have serious "problems" on this particular topic.

[juliann]

No, Juliann, we do not need to go back 175 years, or even one year. We can simply look at the official curriculum for this year to see that a hemispheric model for the BofM is being taught in official LDS materials.

I am really going to have to take a nap. Taking a break from Zelph the Red Herring for this one, I see. We will always refer to "Lamanites", Rollo...just as we refer to "Abrahams children" or "Israelites". The definitions and boundaries may change....just as they did in the BOM! wwhooo hoooo! Run, Rollo, run!

[Rollo Tomasi]

Finally, I'll start being a more staunch believer in alleged revelation about B of M geography when Rollo et. al., start acknowledging the section 132 as an actual revelation of which we have actual record.

Your belief is based on my actions? Cool. I'm flattered.

[Who Knows]

I'm talking specifically about the BOM - THE KEYSTONE OF MORMON RELIGION.  I assume when prophets talk about, and bear their testimony about it, they know what they're talking about, and they're not merely guessing.

So for you a prophet has to know everything from all ages to all ages? Stop avoiding the question.

Juliann, I'm losing faith in your ability to read and comprehend.

I just stated in like 3 consecutive posts that I don't expect a prophet to know everything. I do expect that when he talks about the keystone to his religion, he would know what he's talking about, not just guessing.

Or I could just keep copy/pasting what I've typed again and again and again.

[juliann]

Windows is the keystone to Microsoft Inc.

Bill Gates is the leader of Microsoft

When Bill Gates talks about windows, I would think he should know what he's talking about, and not just guessing.

yai yai yai....you just made my point with that example. Gates has never restructured...never does updates to his products....

[charity]

I don't want to be caught in a crossfire between juliann and who knows. However, there are only two things that are importan for the prophets and the world in general to know about the keystone of our religion.

1. The Book of Mormon is an ancient record translated by the power of God. This comes through a spiritual witness.

2. The doctrines that are contained there in. This comes through study, pondering, praying and receiving the assistance of the Spirit to understand.

Notice, nowhere in either of those is anything about external evidences or geography.

[juliann]

I just stated in like 3 consecutive posts that I don't expect a prophet to know everything. I do expect that when he talks about the keystone to his religion, he would know what he's talking about, not just guessing.

You state you don't expect a prophet to know everything right before you demand he know everything about the BOM. (Anything less is "guessing").

So a prophet should know everything about the culture, lives, geography of how many years of several groups of people? (Hint: If he doesn't...he might say something that would be modified when those things are known) Is there any precedent for this in any religious text?

Or I could just keep copy/pasting what I've typed again and again and again.

We have grown to expect that around here.

[Who Knows]

Windows is the keystone to Microsoft Inc.

Bill Gates is the leader of Microsoft

When Bill Gates talks about windows, I would think he should know what he's talking about, and not just guessing.

yai yai yai....you just made my point with that example. Gates has never restructured...never does updates to his products....

Ok, I proved your point, blah blah blah.

You just proved my point by saying i proved your point, the church never does any updates to the BOM, yai yai yai. See how you proved my point by proving your point.

I think i'm getting the swing of this...

[Rollo Tomasi]

And at what part of the Book of Mormon is geography ever presented as a salvific issue? Certainly if it was so important then Mormon would have made sure we knew exactly where hthey were.

The message of the B of M is spiritual and doctinal not geographical. Those are the teachings that form the cornorstone (the keystone is the D&C) of the Church. Why would God ever bother with revelations about geography that serve no salvific purpose.

Sorry, but geography is a big issue in the BofM. Why else would U.S. members feel (as is taught in the current CES manual) that Nephi's prophecies are referring to their nation and its role in bringing the gospel to the descendants of the Lamanites (a purpose of the book, btw, according to its title page)? To say that where the BofM occurred is irrelevant is to ignore the many instances "promised land" is mentioned in the book. If the book is nothing more than words relating to the "spiritual" or "doctrinal," then why do TBM's object at all when some members conclude the BofM is more fiction or allegory than ancient and historic?

[Who Knows]

Juliann wrote:

So a prophet should know everything about the culture, lives, geography of how many years of several groups of people? (Hint: If he doesn't...he might say something that would be modified when those things are known) Is there any precedent for this in any religious text?

No, I never said that either. I said when he talks about it he should know what he's talking about, and not guess. I don't expect him to know what color sandals nephi had. But if he came out and said it, I would think he knew that, and wasn't guessing.

Juliann, you're seriously making my brain hurt. The way you twist and turn and redirect things is amazing...