If you believe the Spaulding/Ridgon theory

[charity]

There has been a long discussion on another thread about the idea that Sidney Rigdon got the Spaulding manuscript, and wrote the Book of Mormon.

For those who believe this is a viable theory, how do you/they explain the 90 day translation activities? The scribes. The stones in the hat. The physical object carried around and covered, and finally seen by 11 other people and attested to.

Did Joseph Smith memorize pages of written manuscript overnight and then simply recite them to the various scribes the following day? Did anyone ever report seeing a 500 page manuscript anywhere near where Joseph was?

If you/they believe this, Sidney Rigdon might have some reason to keep his mouth shut to the end of his days, but what was the motive for the others of the 11 particularly who became disaffected to maintain the reality of the plates?

[dimbulb]

I think the theory works on a bunch of levels. It certainly could be an elaborate hoax, with props, such as plates, seer stones, etc. Spending 90 days on a translation process certainly lends legitimacy to the project, so clever hoaxers might fake that. It could be a conspiracy of the people involved, including the scribes, which would explain the differing accounts of the translation process. Or of course, it could have happened just the way Joseph said it did.

[Helorum]

Since witnesses at each stage of the translation process watched Joseph Smith dictate each word of the Book of Mormon (from dawn til dusk as David Whitmer noted) without the presence of ANY manuscripts, while Joseph Smith stared into a hat, it seems pretty ridiculous to believe the Spalding-Rigdon Theory.

Since there were witnesses around Joseph Smith during each stage of the translation process, why didn't anybody ever see him reading from a manuscript at night if he was really preparing for the next day's 'hoax'?

Of course, some people are so desperate to make Joseph Smith out to be a liar they will cling to any old goofy theory so that they won't have to accept the plain truth of the matter.

For further reading about the translation see the following article:

John W. Welch,

[dimbulb]

Since witnesses at each stage of the translation process watched Joseph Smith dictate each word of the Book of Mormon (from dawn til dusk as David Whitmer noted) without the presence of ANY manuscripts, while Joseph Smith stared into a hat, it seems pretty ridiculous to believe the Spalding-Rigdon Theory.

Since there were witnesses around Joseph Smith during each stage of the translation process, why didn't anybody ever see him reading from a manuscript at night if he was really preparing for the next day's 'hoax'?

Of course, some people are so desperate to make Joseph Smith out to be a liar they will cling to any old goofy theory so that they won't have to accept the plain truth of the matter.

I don't know that the Rigdon/Spaulding theory is any goofier than the "rock in the hat" theory. I am not calling Joseph Smith a liar, but I'm suggesting that it's not so outlandish to believe that this was an elaborate hoax. Are you suggesting that it could not possibly have been a hoax?

[charity]

I am asking for evidence of the second part of the hoax. If there was an initial stage, where Sidney Rigdon, in concert with anyone else, wrote the Book of Mormon, how did it get to the second stage where the manuscript which was generated by Joseph and written by the various scribes?

[dimbulb]

I am asking for evidence of the second part of the hoax. If there was an initial stage, where Sidney Rigdon, in concert with anyone else, wrote the Book of Mormon, how did it get to the second stage where the manuscript which was generated by Joseph and written by the various scribes?

Well, you initially asked "for those who believe" the theory to explain the process. For one, I don't believe the Spaulding theory, and I think it's been pretty well put to rest (in my opinion). That said, I'm not sure why a fake translation process is problematic. It becomes more problematic when one assumes that, if it is a fraud, that the scribes weren't in on it. But either way, Joseph's dictation method doesn't preclude fraud.

I agree with you that, if the accounts of the stones in the hat are accurate, it would be very difficult for him to read from a manuscript. But it wouldn't be impossible, I wouldn't think.

[USU78]

Unka Dale at his website has about everything you could ever want to know about the comings and goings of Rigdon, Cowdery, JSJr., and everybody else who could possibly have been in the know on and could have contributed to a hoax. It takes a great deal of effort to buy the numerous coincidences necessary to have the hoax theory of Spaulding -> Rigdon -> JSJr. -> press.

The central issue is:

These items Dale has manfully gathered, collated and organized to create timelines, etc., which of course constitute evidence of a conspiracy, only work if you want them to. They do not deliver any sort of knockout punch. If you want to believe them, you can. It ends up a matter of your own faith, your own evaluation of the evidence, and your own preconceptions, perhaps, whether you accept the Spaulding/Rigdon theory and dismiss the BoM, JSJr. and Mormonism as a hoax.

[Uncle Dale]

... It certainly could be an elaborate hoax, with props, such as plates, seer stones, etc....

Throughout four decades of discussing the coming forth of the

Book of Mormon with many, many people,I have only very rarely

heard anybody postulate that Joseph Smith, Jr. actually possessed

FAKE Nephite plates. The Rev. Wm. H. Whitsitt, in his Rigdon

biography, theorizes that Rigdon exhibited such phoney plates

to the Book of Mormon witnesses, etc. etc., but I suppose that

few people today would accept his wild notions about such things.

However, speculation that Smith, Cowdery, et al. did make use of

"prop" plates surfaced early in Mormon history. The fake plates

thus mentioned were copper plates -- of the type printers of that

era used to insert engraved pictures into their newspapers and

pamphlets. Given the fact that some LDS writers have attempted

to account for the relatively light weight of Smith's plates (having

the appearance of gold) by saying the plates may have been a

copper-gold alloy, these early mentions of copper, brass, bronze

or tin "prop" plates may be of interest to readers of this thread.

We might well begin here, with an 1835 newspaper article:

http://www.lavazone2.com/dbroadhu/IL/miscill1.htm

The probability is that Smith, who had been a book-peddler, and was frequently

about printing establishments, had procured some old copper plates for

engravings, which he showed for his golden plates.

In my comments respecting that 1835 "probability," I say this:

Elder Oliver Cowdery chose to respond to the Pioneer article in his April 1835 issue of the Latter Day Saints' Messenger and Advocate. In his response Cowdery chides the Pioneer's correspondent for suggesting "that Smith, who had been a book peddler, and was frequently about printing establishments, had procured some old copper plates for engravings, which he showed for golden plates." The irony of Oliver Cowdery's refutation of this allegation may be found in that fact that Oliver himself had once been a peddler of various publications and in the fact that he himself was prone to spending time "frequently about printing establishments." It remains uncertain whether or not Cowdery and Smith ever made use of copper engraving plates for the purposes suggested by the Pioneer's correspondent; but see the 1988 anniversary issue of Naked Truths About Mormonism for "The Fools' Gold Bible," an article on this very subject.

http://www.lavazone2.com/dbroadhu/CA/natr1988.htm#120088-4a5

The "Fools' Gold Bible" article does not present positive "facts"

about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon -- even its several

assertions in that regard are very much suspect, because they

do not appear in sources contemporary with the publication of that

book. However, merely as an item which may interest Bros. USU

and Bulb, I'll provide a brief extract:

Oliver Cowdery was then a part-time coppermith who possessed considerable skill in preparing copper engraving plates for the old-fashoned hand printing presses of that period.

He had most recently found some employment in this line of work and related tasks in Canadaigua, but, following the untimely death of his employer, young Cowdery lodged first with his brother and then with his cousins (the Joe Smith family of Manchester) and there became a sometime participant in the infamous "Gold Bible Company."

After Joseph Smith, Jr. had his dream about the angel, it was decided in private midnight consultations that the contrived appearance of real metallic plates would be of especial use to the Bible Company. Oliver was dispatched to the Sherman smithy with orders to fabricate a book of plates, held together with rings. Making use of various bits of scrap copper, Cowdery first attempted to forge the necessary production out behind the wagon shop. When that process proved too tedious for his taste, the coppersmith instead beat some worn-out engraving plates into serviceable "ancient sheets," nearly as thin as paper...

I provide the above quotes merely as illustrations of what others

have said in the past, about the possibility that Joseph and Oliver

made use of copper plates as "props." Such plates, burnished with

certain chemicals or clad upon one side in inexpensive gold-leaf

would present metallic objects "having the appearance of gold,"

and which would not be so heavy as to prevent their being carried

about with relative ease. In such a stack of metal, perhaps only

the topmost sheets would have required such golden-hued

burnishing, or gold-leafing, in order to provide the appearance

of a stack of truly golden plates.

Uncle Dale

[dimbulb]

Thanks for the information, Dale. I really don't know what to make of it all. Some days it seems more like a scam than a religion, and of course I keep coming back to your saying years ago that it might have been both.

[Jaybear]

Since witnesses at each stage of the translation process watched Joseph Smith dictate each word of the Book of Mormon (from dawn til dusk as David Whitmer noted) without the presence of ANY manuscripts, while Joseph Smith stared into a hat, it seems pretty ridiculous to believe the Spalding-Rigdon Theory.

Why would anyone be in the same room from dusk till dawn, witnessesing this translation performance? Didnt they have jobs, chores or family matters to attend to?

Lets assume for the sake of argument, that from time to time during the "translation process" visitors would drop by to watch. How do we know that that the manuscript that was presented to the publisher included the portions that were "dictated" in the presence of third parties?

USU:

These items Dale has manfully gathered, collated and organized to create timelines, etc., which of course constitute evidence of a conspiracy, only work if you want them to. They do not deliver any sort of knockout punch. If you want to believe them, you can. It ends up a matter of your own faith, your own evaluation of the evidence, and your own preconceptions, perhaps, whether you accept the Spaulding/Rigdon theory and dismiss the BoM, JSJr. and Mormonism as a hoax.

I agree. If you evaluate the historical evidence with the preconception that that JS was a con man, your nontestimony will not be shaken by questions posed by the faithful highlighting the "rediculous" assumptions one must make to conclude that the BOM was not the product of divine intervention. The airtight translation process showing the book coming from the bottom of a hat, is just one of those things we have to put on our book shelf of nonfaith, right along side the refusal of the witnesses to publically acknowlege that they were either simpleminded dupes or were part of a fraudulent conspiracy.

[charity]

Uncle Dale, thanks for contributing. Can you answer a couple of questions?

I clicked on the link. I see nothing except some speculation from a 1998 publication. No sources. No citations. If the Oliver Cowdery and the copper plates story did not originate in 1998, there is no evidence proffered.

Also, do you have any theories about how a faked Rigdon/Spaulding manuscript was transcribbed by the various scribes onto what was laboriously prepared over the translation period of time?

[charity]

Jaybear, there were people around. Farmers come and go. They don't head off to the city for a 9 - 5. Joseph was not in his own isolated home, but in the house of others. Emma was around. Obvioulsy there were people there because we have all the stories about the stones in the hat.

And as mentioned before, the different witnesses had very little motive for keeping their mouths shut once they had become disaffected. A hoax on the scale that is suggested has so many people involved, it would really strain the imagination if not one single person were to blab.

[dimbulb]

And as mentioned before, the different witnesses had very little motive for keeping their mouths shut once they had become disaffected. A hoax on the scale that is suggested has so many people involved, it would really strain the imagination if not one single person were to blab.

It wasn't that big a scale. The Strang folks never "blabbed" about their witness. It doesn't strain my imagination to think Strang made it up.

[USU78]

Unka Dale's quote:  Oliver Cowdery was then a part-time coppermith who possessed considerable skill in preparing copper engraving plates for the old-fashoned hand printing presses of that period.

He had most recently found some employment in this line of work and related tasks in Canadaigua, but, following the untimely death of his employer, young Cowdery lodged first with his brother and then with his cousins (the Joe Smith family of Manchester) and there became a sometime participant in the infamous "Gold Bible Company."

After Joseph Smith, Jr. had his dream about the angel, it was decided in private midnight consultations that the contrived appearance of real metallic plates would be of especial use to the Bible Company. Oliver was dispatched to the Sherman smithy with orders to fabricate a book of plates, held together with rings. Making use of various bits of scrap copper, Cowdery first attempted to forge the necessary production out behind the wagon shop. When that process proved too tedious for his taste, the coppersmith instead beat some worn-out engraving plates into serviceable "ancient sheets," nearly as thin as paper...

And thus we see that certain more recent critics are in good company, as they fit right well with the more contemporaneous speculations like that above.

I am particularly fond of "infamous 'Gold Bible Company'," a very sweet turn of phrase, as well as the the mental image of Oliver slaving away to make copper plates at the forge behind the wagon shop.

I can just imagine old man Sherman, the smith, being more than forgiving of that rascally Oliver for ripping off the valuable scrap copper for his own use. Smiths have ever been known to be generous souls, as illustrated here:

Jack the Blacksmith

[Jaybear]

Jaybear, there were people around. Farmers come and go. They don't head off to the city for a 9 - 5. Joseph was not in his own isolated home, but in the house of others. Emma was around. Obvioulsy there were people there because we have all the stories about the stones in the hat.

And as mentioned before, the different witnesses had very little motive for keeping their mouths shut once they had become disaffected. A hoax on the scale that is suggested has so many people involved, it would really strain the imagination if not one single person were to blab.

Yes, people were around, but the question remains, do you know for certain, or are you simply assuming that the portions of the manuscript transcribed in the presense of others, were delivered for publication.

Additionally, I recall that at some points during the process, JS was dictating from behind a curtain. I also recall some apologist that suggest that JS copied portion from the KJ version of the bible as a shortcut. There are also some apologist that reject the notion that JS simply read, word for word, the contents of the BoM as Whitmer suggests. How can you expect critics to explain how the translation process was a sham, if there is no consensus among LDS on how this process came about.

As for motive in keeping quiet, prisons are full of men claiming to be innocent even after being caught and convicted, and they have as you put it "very little motive for keeping their mouths shut." While it may be true that confession is good for soul, some people actually value their reputation more than their soul.

You are welcome to draw your own inferences from their silence, but don't expect your infernence to be universally accepted.

[Uncle Dale]

Uncle Dale, thanks for contributing. Can you answer a couple of questions?

I clicked on the link. I see nothing except some speculation from a 1998 publication. No sources. No citations. If the Oliver Cowdery and the copper plates story did not originate in 1998, there is no evidence proffered.

Also, do you have any theories about how a faked Rigdon/Spaulding manuscript was transcribbed by the various scribes onto what was laboriously prepared over the translation period of time?

Your are correct, friend -- the 1988 article purports

to reproduce recollections of a person who lived in

or near Palmyra during the late 1820s. Unless some

other researcher has located evidence pro or con

regarding that person, his alleged presence in the

area, and the availablity of supporting source materials,

I do not think we can accept that account as anything

more than an imaginative fantasy. That is why I

specified that I was providing it merely for the possible

interest of Bros. USU and Bulb. The account presents

an "idea" of what some might believe "could" have

happened, but I hope nobody here cites it as evidence,

(let alone proof) of anything.

I do not have any particular theories that I would care

to try and offer in support of the notion that Spalding's

writings ended up in the Book of Mormon. Even if I said

that Spalding merely had some dreams and visions of

America's Nephite past, that corresponded in some small

way with parts of the Book of Mormon, some reader here

would demand that I "prove" my speculation.

I will, however, provide the jist of a discussion that I once

participated in, while attending RLDS Sunday School some

years back.

A person asked how the Book of Mormon translation could

possibly have been a fraud, when Mrs. Emma Hale Smith

testified that she sat with Joseph, as he dictated several

pages of the Nephite Record, while she herself wrote them

down and witnessed the process first-hand.

One member of the class asked "Did Emma ever say that

the words she wrote down for Joseph actually ended up

in the published Book of Mormon?" Another lady asked,

"Don't the Mormons say Emma lied about polygamy --

could she have lied about her experience as a scribe?"

And on, and on, and on.

If we look at what Rigdon biographer Wm. H. Whitsitt had

to say, in his biography, it appears that he believed that

Joseph obtained a text in Rigdon's handwriting (or in

Spalding's handwriting with Rigdon's lengthy insertions)

and that Joseph's task was to get that text reproduced

in some other person's handwriting. In doing this, with

Hale, Whitmer, Harris and Cowdery scribes, Joseph would

have presumably destroyed each of Rigdon's incriminating

pages as his scribe(s) turned out a dictated reproduction

of that particular page. With the loss of the approx. 116

initial pages of that work, Smith was forced to go back

to Rigdon to get a replacement text, thus interrupting the

"translation process." While waiting for Rigdon to supply

the "small plates of Nephi" account, Joseph eventually

resumed his work, at or near the beginning of Mosiah,

and then continued forward to Moroni, at which time the

Rigdon "replacement text" was made available to him

and Moroni, 1st & 2nd Nephi, and Jacob, etc. were then

completely "translated" and added to stack of pages.

This was more or less Whitsitt's theory, and it has been

recently taken up by Rev. Ready and summarized here

in the FAIR message boards by Prof. Criddle.

I wish to stress that it is not MY theory. It is but one

possible historical reconstruction and it may be wrong

in many (or even most) of its assumptions. It interests

me, but I have yet to see compelling evidence (let

alone solid proof) that this is more or less what occured.

Best wishes,

Uncle Dale

[charity]

So, to offer some credibility to the theory, you are now resorting to offering "fantasy" as some kind of rationale or evidence? And that Emma and Oliver didn't say that what they actually spent hours writing out by hand actually made it to the printer? They just did it for fun? Oh really.

[Sput]

Im waiting for someone to put 1 and 1 together to conjour up a whole new theory. That while looking in his hat Joseph was reading the manuscripts written by rigdon or spaulding while being lit with pinholes in his hat.

[Matt Andrews]

First, I don't think the Spaulding/Rigdon theory requires that Joseph read directly from the manuscript to the scribes. He could have read it beforehand and recited it back.

(side-note: If Rigdon's grammar was much better than the grammar of the BoM, pre-corrections, then this would seem inconsistent with JS reading it word for word from Rigdon's writing.)

Second, it isn't just over 90 days. If I recall correctly, there is a long period of time in between the 116 pages fiasco and the rest of the 'translation'. Lots of time for Joseph to keep reading and becoming familiar with a manuscript.

-----------------------------------

As a small digression,

David Copperfield has made entire buildings seem to vanish. I'm not sure exactly how he does it, but I recognize it as a trick without being able to say with certainty how he did it.

Similarly, I don't know exactly who wrote the Book of Mormon, but I (personally) recognize it as a trick, without being able to say with certainty how it came about.

[charity]

Matt, I can see you were never a transcriber! While, as listeners, we are very forgiving about vagaries in human speech, as readers, we are not.

I worked for BYU publications as a transcriber. Talks by well known public speakers and General Authorities went through our office. I listened to tapes of the talks, and typed them. Then tidied them up. We sent the tidied up transcription to the speaker for approval. They always came back with corrections. Not of what had been said by the speaker, but of what they had meant to say instead.

The different scribes reported that Joseph never backtracked, never had to ask where he had been when they started after a break. That is impossible to do if you are speaking without something written in front of you. I typed up speeches of talks which were up to 45 minutes long. Not days and days. Hours and hours.

No matter how many days he had to memorize, he could not have produced a 500 page length work by learning and reciting something that someone else had written. And he could not have dictated something straight out of his own mind.

I understand Dr. Nibley challenged students to write a 500 page "novel" themselves and none ever did it. I don't have a 3 college credit course to offer as incentive, but I would say that a challenge to learn a 500 page novel, and then dictate it without narrative error, would similarly find no takers.

[USU78]

So, to offer some credibility to the theory, you are now resorting to offering "fantasy" as some kind of rationale or evidence? And that Emma and Oliver didn't say that what they actually spent hours writing out by hand actually made it to the printer? They just did it for fun? Oh really.

I think you're missing Unka Dale's point, my friend.

He specifically eschewed telling us his own thoughts on the subject, and properly attributed the "fantasy" you point out to the person who came up with it.

[Uncle Dale]

So, to offer some credibility to the theory, you are now resorting to offering "fantasy" as some kind of rationale or evidence? And that Emma and Oliver didn't say that what they actually spent hours writing out by hand actually made it to the printer? They just did it for fun? Oh really.

I apologize, if I have made that impression upon anybody.

My purpose was merely to say that very few people ever

conjectured that Smith and Cowdery might have used

"prop" copper plates --- and that the only lengthy accounts

of such things I can locate are Whitsitt (who is generally

disbelieved) and Deming's associates or advocates (who

are, if anything, less believed even than Rev. Whitsitt).

Perhaps I should have just stayed mum and said nothing.

Should anybody wish to provide some reasonable

conclusions about the various scribes' dictated pages,

I think they could well expand upon what you have

just said ---

If their scribal contributions did NOT end up in the Book of

Mormon, exactly as they wrote down the words, why did

they never say that --- Or, more specifically, in the case

of Martin Harris, if the "Book of Lehi" did not generally

tell the same story as the "Small Plates of Nephi," why

did Harris not report that?

Then again, was it not Brigham Young who said words

to the effect that Emma Hale Smith was one of the

most damnable liars who ever walked the face of the

earth --- and are not several published Martin Harris

statements (in Tiffiny's Monthly, etc.) denied in part

or in whole by the LDS leaders and historians?

Uncle Dale

[charity]

Why stick a fantasy in to a serious discussion? If you want to bring up a topic, I am not going to start telling you the Cinderella story.

[Uncle Dale]

Why stick a fantasy in to a serious discussion?

If you want to bring up a topic, I am not going to

start telling you the Cinderella story.

Gee -- I almost wish you would, to cover over

my bad choice of on-line Gold Bible stories.

I'd guess that most everybody here will agree

that you are right. So, if that is true, what might

I now do to regain your good will?

Your faithful servant,

Dale in Hilo

[charity]

Uncle Dale, how about telling me how you think Joseph Smith could have taken a Rigdon/Spaulding manuscript (whether or not you think there was one) and dictated it to the scribes? Then we are friends again.