If you believe the Spaulding/Ridgon theory

[Uncle Dale]

Uncle Dale:

I sincerely doubt that Joseph Smith, Jr. ever had access to the

biblical urim & thummim -- or even to a Nephite breastplate

with "interpreters" attached -- or the sword of Laban, etc. etc.

So my general train of thought now includes those sorts of things

less and less.

I like the way you put this: "ever had access." I prefer to think that JS at the very least truly believed in the existence of plates and the other artifacts. How many times did treasure diggers come up empty-handed? How many times did the same people return to the fields looking for the same, or another treasure? The inability to retrieve the treasure does not necessarily result in an end to belief in it.

If Joseph Smith, Jr. were around today, he might well be

the sort of guy who drums up financial support for deep-sea

recoveries of sunken ship riches.

And, I'd suppose that rather than being the guy swabbing the

decks or handling the diving apparatus, that he be the fellow

gazing intently into the sonar screen -- hoping against hope

for just one small glimpse of a sunken ship outline on that

glistening, phosphorescent screen.

And when those means failed he might even be the sort of

sunken treasure seeker who would resort to using a dowsing rod,

or in calling the ship's crew together for a prayer meeting, in

hopes of finding the elusive prize.

Were I to script a modern screenplay for the Smith story, I'd

start out with those sorts of scenes, and then gradually give

more and more emphasis to the praying scenes. Soon, about

five minutes into the movie, I'd get away from the diving

equipment and sonar screens altogether.

Thought of in those cinematic terms, perhaps a "peep-stone-using

money-digging promoter" might be put before the public in a

much more reputable manner.

Uncle "I'd leave out the 1836 Salem gold-seeking scene, tho" Dale

[The Mormonator]

Uncle Dale:

I sincerely doubt that Joseph Smith, Jr. ever had access to the

biblical urim & thummim -- or even to a Nephite breastplate

with "interpreters" attached -- or the sword of Laban, etc. etc.

So my general train of thought now includes those sorts of things

less and less.

I like the way you put this: "ever had access." I prefer to think that JS at the very least truly believed in the existence of plates and the other artifacts. How many times did treasure diggers come up empty-handed? How many times did the same people return to the fields looking for the same, or another treasure? The inability to retrieve the treasure does not necessarily result in an end to belief in it.

If Joseph Smith, Jr. were around today, he might well be

the sort of guy who drums up financial support for deep-sea

recoveries of sunken ship riches.

And, I'd suppose that rather than being the guy swabbing the

decks or handling the diving apparatus, that he be the fellow

gazing intently into the sonar screen -- hoping against hope

for just one small glimpse of a sunken ship outline on that

glistening, phosphorescent screen.

And when those means failed he might even be the sort of

sunken treasure seeker who would resort to using a dowsing rod,

or in calling the ship's crew together for a prayer meeting, in

hopes of finding the elusive prize.

Were I to script a modern screenplay for the Smith story, I'd

start out with those sorts of scenes, and then gradually give

more and more emphasis to the praying scenes. Soon, about

five minutes into the movie, I'd get away from the diving

equipment and sonar screens altogether.

Thought of in those cinematic terms, perhaps a "peep-stone-using

money-digging promoter" might be put before the public in a

much more reputable manner.

Uncle "I'd leave out the 1836 Salem gold-seeking scene, tho" Dale

Perhaps the ghosts of Sydney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery can help you write the script.

[charity]

I'm sorry Uncle Dale. This is not fun. I am highly offended at your previous post. I am not joking. I no longer believe you are even civil.

[Uncle Dale]

I'm sorry Uncle Dale.  This is not fun.  I am highly offended at your previous post.  I am not joking.  I no longer believe you are even civil.

Just so long as it is me that you are truly angry with,

and not with our common heritage.

My wife works with special needs children at a local public school

and sees a lot of "anger-transferral." Sometimes she even comes

home and unloads a tiny bit of that pent-up frustration upon me.

As an educational employee, she simply cannot be angry at the

kids' parents. There is no room for that "politically speaking," in her

job description. Nor can much of her frustration be usefully directed

at the school administrators.

So, when she comes home after a disturbing day and sees that I've

neither done the breakfast dishes, nor picked up and dusted off the

beloved old family portraits I'd knocked over the day before ---

well, I know what is coming.

The important thing is that the kids there in her school are at least

receiving good care while in that safe and encouraging environment.

All of which may have nothing at all to do with your own feelings.

But that is what came to my mind, as I read your message.

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that it is OK that she tells me

she is angry or disappointed with me -- our good relationship is

not permanently injured when she honestly expresses such offense,

(at my lack of affection for her aunt's old photo) or such disappointment,

(in my leaving all the dirty dishes out).

Uncle Dale

[charity]

Uncle Dale, you may think I have just been having a bad day and looking for a dog to kick. Do not treat this so lightly.

You insulted Joseph Smith. And not for any legitimate discussion. But just for ridicule. Joseph Smith was not a career treasure hunter. He worked for Josiah Stowell, and he was the one who tried to dissuade the man from continuing in what seemed to be an ill-advised venture.

To chortle with Baeth_Ku that he would likely be gazing into a sonar scope is disgusting. And you did it for sport. It is a good thing that you are not a member of the Church and have a lower level of accountability. I would think this as serious a matter if you ridiculed the Pope or Billy Graham.

[Uncle Dale]

You insulted Joseph Smith. And not for any legitimate discussion.  But just for ridicule...

I may have insulted President Smith, but my purpose was not "for ridicule."

My purpose was to make him relevant to the sort of non-LDS, movie-going

audience that would appreciate the opening scenes in "Titanic," (where using

scientific methods to locate sunken ships is given a very POSITIVE light).

When I viewed the Titanic movie, I was not at all turned off by the fact

that the ship-seekers were very eager to locate the old ocean-liner, or

that they had difficulty in that effort, or that the elderly lady they employed

to help them was able to provide insights that nobody else could provide.

In what way would a youthful Joseph Smith, modernized and placed within

the context of that well-made and well-received movie, be an offense to

anybody? And how on earth could a young man's progression from working

as a ship-recovery promoter and a sonar operator, to a leader of prayer groups

be seen as a bad one?

Allow me to provide some context for what I am here imagining, by going

back in time and leaving the "sonar-operator on the recovery ship" entirely

out of the discussion for most of my current posting.

If anybody has the inclination, please consider the following:

Joseph Smith provided this very short description of one of his early

occupations, calling himself "a money digger," in an 1838 Church article:

In obedience to our promise, we give the following answers to questions,

which were asked in the last number of the Journal....

Question 10th. Was not Jo Smith a money digger?

Answer. Yes, but it was never a very profitable job to him,

as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.

"Elders' Journal" Vol. I. No. 3. (July 1838), pp. 42-43

Edited by Joseph Smith, Jr. and published at Far West, Caldwell, MO

by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/eldjur03.htm

Richard L. Anderson briefly took up this topic in 1984, though his main

object in writing was to address questions concerning Smith's "treasure

seeking" experiences AFTER the Church had been founded:

In an 1859 interview, Martin Harris recalled that Joseph could find a lost object through his stone

and that the older Smith men were involved in a money-digging company. Both Joseph and his mother

refute treasure-searching accusations without total denials, and Lucy Mack Smith comments that

Josiah Stowell came from Pennsylvania to enlist Joseph's help in his excavations because he heard

the youth "possessed certain keys by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye."

[Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet (Liverpool: Orson Pratt, 1853), 92;

compare 106, which identifies the Urim and Thummim as that "which Joseph termed a key." The last

term, applied to the pre-1827 period, suggests the reference quoted in the text refers to the seer

stone. Joseph's refutations are discussed in this section of the paper, whereas his mother's most

direct comment appears in the last section. The Harris interview appears in Tiffany's Monthly 5

(1859): 163-70 and is reproduced in Kirkham, New Witness for Christ, 2:373-83. A related early

document is Isaac Hale's affidavit regarding the Stowell treasure dig. The affidavit appeared in

the Susquehanna Register, 1 May 1834, before E. D. Howe's publication.

http://www.lavazone2.com/dbroadhu/PA/penn1820.htm#050134

Isaac Hale's quotation of the revelation to Martin Harris (D&C 5) shows his mind

at work--accurate in general information but placing details in an unfavorable light)

Yet the extent of such activity is hard to reconstruct, so these particularized reports certainly

do not validate all the tall stories of anti-Mormon folklore or the extensive hearsay in

county histories....

Richard Lloyd Anderson,

"The Mature Joseph Smith and Treasure Searching"

BYU Studies,  24:4 (1984), pp. 489ff.

Available in full text, pdf file at:

http://byustudies.byu.edu/index/

For the 1859 Martin Harris interview, see this URL:

http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/185...Tiff.htm#pg163a

Lastly, I would not expect the world-wide type of audience who went to

see "Titanic" on the wide-screen, and who have purchased so many video

copies of that movie in recent years, to be comprised even 1% of LDS.

The imaginary sunken treasure movie I was here describing, would be

intended to an audience 99% non-Mormon. And, the sunken treasure

aspect of the screenplay would be, as I said, over after the first five

minutes of the on-screen action. The remaining 90 minutes would be

essentially a modern RELIGIOUS movie.

Uncle Dale

[Baeth_Ku]

To chortle with Baeth_Ku that he would likely be gazing into a sonar scope is disgusting. And you did it for sport.

Very interesting. Uncle Dale comes up with a film idea as a kind of metaphor for his view of Joseph Smith's transformation from treasure seeker to prophet, and predictably someone out there appears to have taken his idea literally.

I would not presume to read Uncle Dale's mind, but I know how I read his post. I thought he had chosen a cinematic metaphor in order to soften the apparently alien nature of 19th century magical practice for a modern audience. I may be off, but I think I am hitting on at least some of what he was aiming at.

Uncle Dale, I considered your scenario to be reasonable, interesting, and full of the sort of humor a man like Joseph would have enjoyed himself. He was, God love him, a man of good humor and playful nature, among his many other personal characteristics, both good and bad.

I am reminded of the family which saw Joseph Smith playing with children after a full day of translating the scriptures and which was offended because it felt he was not acting like a prophet. I scarcely doubt that those who are so easily offended on behalf of the prophet run the risk of making the same mistake. They expect sterile perfection in a full-blooded human being who served the Lord in his weakness. They expect others to act as though their leaders are bloodless marble statues in a sanctuary and not the human beings they in fact are.

Those of us who see and appreciate the human being are held to be acting offensively when we write about him in anything but the most restrained and worshipful manner. If Joseph were here to witness this hullabaloo on his behalf, I daresay it would make *him* ill.

[Baeth_Ku]

By the way, Uncle Dale, on what basis would you leave out the Salem trip, aesthetic or scholarly reasons?

[Uncle Dale]

Baeth_Ku,Nov 4 2005, 07:54 PM:

[[To chortle with Baeth_Ku that he would likely be gazing into a sonar scope is disgusting. And you did it for sport.]]

Very interesting. Uncle Dale comes up with a film idea as a kind of metaphor for his view of Joseph Smith's transformation from treasure seeker to prophet, and predictably someone out there appears to have taken his idea literally.

I would not presume to read Uncle Dale's mind, but I know how I read his post. I thought he had chosen a cinematic metaphor in order to soften the apparently alien nature of 19th century magical practice for a modern audience. I may be off, but I think I am hitting on at least some of what he was aiming at.

Uncle Dale, I considered your scenario to be reasonable, interesting, and full of the sort of humor a man like Joseph would have enjoyed himself. He was, God love him, a man of good humor and playful nature, among his many other personal characteristics, both good and bad.

I am reminded of the family which saw Joseph Smith playing with children after a full day of translating the scriptures and which was offended because it felt he was not acting like a prophet. I scarcely doubt that those who are so easily offended on behalf of the prophet run the risk of making the same mistake. They expect sterile perfection in a full-blooded human being who served the Lord in his weakness. They expect others to act as though their leaders are bloodless marble statues in a sanctuary and not the human beings they in fact are.

Those of us who see and appreciate the human being are held to be acting offensively when we write about him in anything but the most restrained and worshipful manner. If Joseph were here to witness this hullabaloo on his behalf, I daresay it would make *him* ill.

We seem to overlap in our ideas here, friend. The anti-Mormons

have given the term "money-digger" such a negative meaning,

that many Latter Day Saints I have encountered prefer not to

think about Joseph's early days at all --- thus we have movies

like the made-for-TV "American Prophet," and the films shown

in CoC and LDS visitor centers, where a smiling Joseph romps

with the kids and lends a helping hand in building a house at

Nauvoo, or some such thing. But no Latter Day Saint film-maker

is going to insert the sorts of scenes that Martin Harris describes

in his 1859 interview ----- because "money-digging" has such a

negative sound to it. But that's part of the early story and such

historical matters should not bother the Saints so much -- IMHO.

So -- I tried to transfer that imagery to a modern ship-recovery

promoter and a sonor operator ---- and failed miserably. For I

was "messing" with the sacred image of the man who "mingles

with gods, so he can plan for his brethren."

I've met this sort of angry response before -- teaching Sunday School

for the RLDS. I would bring to class some xerox of mine, taken from

the Nauvoo "Times & Seasons," or a similar source, and show JS's

published words to the class. Certain members would predictably

get angry. Their cherished beliefs were being threatened by the

Church's own history, published in the Church's own periodicals, and

subscribed to by the Church's own topmost leaders.

Because these "additional items" were not in the weekly Sunday

School lesson, the class could get angry at me --- for imposing that

"old stuff" upon a modern study group. I was a safe person for

them to get angry with. Joseph was dead and gone: they could not

work out anger for people from his generation. The RLDS leaders

were too revered to get angry at (though sometimes criticized).

So, class members could transfer their surprise and disappointment

at "money-digging," or "Nauvoo polygamy," or RLDS fibs about

Brigham Young directly to me. I did not blame them then and I do

not blame folks nowadays, for doing the same.

But, I was taught that faith well-tested is made double-strong. I wish

I could find a quote from Joseph saying exactly that, and perhaps I

will. And perhaps somebody, for some unfathomable reason will

become angry for hearing that said as well. If so, I'm more interested

in hearing such persons' thoughts after their anger passes, than in

dwelling upon predictable saintly misunderstandings.

Baeth_Ku,Nov 4 2005, 07:54 PM

By the way, Uncle Dale, on what basis would you leave out the Salem

trip, aesthetic or scholarly reasons?

I was just being mean-spirited. Charity had a right to be upset about

that unnecessay reminder of times long since forgotten by good men.

Uncle Dale

[The Mormonator]

Very interesting. Uncle Dale comes up with a film idea as a kind of metaphor for his view of Joseph Smith's transformation from treasure seeker to prophet, and predictably someone out there appears to have taken his idea literally.

It's funny how you call Joseph a "Treasure Seeker" as if that was his Official Title. Sort of like "Dr.", "Captain" or "CEO". Maybe he wore a little wooden badge that said "Joseph Smith: TREASURE SEEKER".

[Uncle Dale]

Very interesting. Uncle Dale comes up with a film idea as a kind of metaphor for his view of Joseph Smith's transformation from treasure seeker to prophet, and predictably someone out there appears to have taken his idea literally.

It's funny how you call Joseph a "Treasure Seeker" as if that was his Official Title. Sort of like "Dr.", "Captain" or "CEO". Maybe he wore a little wooden badge that said "Joseph Smith: TREASURE SEEKER".

In 1951 Elder John A. Widtsoe wrote a very interesting book,

entitled "Joseph Smith: Seeker After Truth, Prophet of God."

Has it EVER occurred to anybody that JS was not just looking

for GOLD (to pay off the Smith family morgage, and to save his

family from eviction)?

Early newspaper reports say he and one or more of his associates

were also seeking for the riches left in the ground by the ancient Indians.

And what is the greatest of all riches? Might it be Truth?

So, how about if we change words on that little wooden badge to:

"TRUTH SEEKER"

????

Uncle Dale

[Baeth_Ku]

Uncle Dale:

But, I was taught that faith well-tested is made double-strong. I wish

I could find a quote from Joseph saying exactly that, and perhaps I

will. And perhaps somebody, for some unfathomable reason will

become angry for hearing that said as well. If so, I'm more interested

in hearing such persons' thoughts after their anger passes, than in

dwelling upon predictable saintly misunderstandings.

That dictum was well spoken, no matter the source.

A scene from "The Last Temptation of Christ" is brought to mind. Jesus aproaches Paul and demands that Paul stop telling lies about him. Paul replies something to the effect of, "I am glad that I met you so that I can forget you." He then proceeded to tell Jesus that it was Paul's use of his story that was valuable in supplying people hope, not the real history that mattered.

Naturally all of this was highly fictional, and only written to make a point, among other things. [i am waiting for someone to criticize me for having watched the movie and then having relayed some of its contents which concern people about whom one should not attribute such "blasphemies."]

What I take from this is that a figure like Joseph Smith at some point ceases to be a real human being and becomes the idealization of every virtue and the fulfillment of every spiritual desire for those who need him to act as such. For this I blame the followers as much as the leaders. Many followers demand that their leaders be flawless, and they are so determined to render them thus that they fictionalize or heavily edit the lives of these people to make them the idols that are sought.

And, while I take your point about transference, I also think that it is the nearly overwhelming bottom-up pressure for perfect, mortal gods in charge that brings this about. People are as angry that others (leaders or anyone) don't go along with the idolatry they practice as they are angry with anything like oppression or disempowerment. It is said that people collude in their oppression. I hate to go to the chicken and egg problem, but there are times when I truly wonder which comes first. Is it the desire to rule absolutely or the demand to be ruled absolutely?

The deification of these human beings is the fruit of the desire to abandon faith and embrace tyranny. For some, delf-deception is easier to endure than doubt, in spite of the fact that a doubt faced maturely can be a faith strengthened almost immeasurably. For this reason, I repudiate all attempts to guilt others into ignoring the past, into ignoring the facts, into deifying leaders past and present, and into declaring subjects or lines of inquiry taboo.

[Baeth_Ku]

Has it EVER occurred to anybody that JS was not just looking

for GOLD (to pay off the Smith family morgage, and to save his

family from eviction)?

I know I may live to regret this, but isn't this one of the premises underpinning alchemy? Didn't the alchemist's search for gold go hand in hand with the search for spiritual refinement? I don't think we have to agree with Brooke's "Refiner's Fire" to concede that these kinds of enterprises need not have been so one-sided.

I have encountered stories about treasure-seeking in an interesting source: Gregory of Tours' History of the Franks. Here Gregory comments that certain Roman emperors were blessed by God for their righteousness to find treasure.

[Uncle Dale]

Has it EVER occurred to anybody that JS was not just looking

for GOLD (to pay off the Smith family morgage, and to save his

family from eviction)?

I know I may live to regret this, but isn't this one of the premises underpinning alchemy? Didn't the alchemist's search for gold go hand in hand with the search for spiritual refinement?...

The Philospher's Stone and the Submarine Barge (er,... Barque)

On pages 106 & 269 of his 1805 "Madoc" epic, British Poet Laureate, Robert

Southey speaks poetically of the magical "one emerald light" that through

"the green element for ever shines." In his own notes to his poetic epic,

Southey eventually explains that this seemingly cryptic passage is an indirect

reference leading to a precursor magical light, that is, to the alchemists' famous

"Philospher's Stone," a rare, wondrous thing, as mystical as the Holy Grail

(and about as frequently discovered in the mundane world).

In alchemical lore, the Philospher's Stone, once discovered (or, perhaps even

re-created) and put to good use, could turn base metals into gold --- but it also

could provide a heavenly light -- it thus stood as a metaphor for that

"pearl of great price" type of knowledge (or realization, or revelation) which is

spiritual Truth -- the great divine power or miracle which transforms the souls

of fallen mankind back to the pristine state of Adam's soul, before his fall.

The analogy is found in the concept that gold might deteriorate into a base metal

and that divinely perfected truth and light * can subsequently return the metal

(or the human soul) to its golden purity.

This magical, light-emitting stone (or set of two stones) of alchemical lore is also

called "the urim and thummim." When Merlin with his band of Bards sought

passage to the transatlantic "Green Islands" he took them to sea in his

submarine-barque, the "crystal Ark," a submersible ship, able to plunge down

to the "secret depths of Ocean." To light the interior of Merlin's submarine barque,

(my word -- the author calls the vessel an "ark") Southey says that he needed

invent no new source of radiance to meet his fictional great sage Merlin's needs,

for the explanations of Paracelsus ** had already provided for this need --

in revealing that the Urim and Thummim was the Philosopher's stone; and it was

this radiant stone which gave light inside the Ark of Noah (and then again in

Merlin's fictional submarine, during its voyage to the Western Hemisphere). If

any legendary magician had the necessary (tho fictional) knowledge to procure

the urim and thummim, it would have been Merlin, of course

__________

* Urim and Thummim is the transliteration of two Hebrew words meaning, respectively,

"light(s)"... or "perfection(s)." -- "Encyclopedia of Mormonism"

** "Paracelsus": Julius Auroleus Phillipus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim,

author of books such as Of the Chymical Transmutation, Genealogy and

Generation of Metals & Minerals: Also, Of the Urim and Thummim

The relevant (revelant?) excerpt from Southey's poem:

Where are the sons of Gavran? where his tribe

The faithful? Following their beloved Chief,

They the Green Islands of the Ocean sought;

Nor human tongue hath told, nor human ear,

Since from the silver shores they went their way,

Hath heard, their fortunes. In his crystal Ark,

Whither sailed Merlin with his band of Bards,

Old Merlin, master of the mystic lore?

Belike his crystal Ark, instinct with life,

Obedient to the mighty Master, reach'd

The Land of the Departed; there, belike,

They in the clime of immortality,

Themselves immortal, drink the gales of bliss,

Which o'er Flathinnis breathe eternal spring,

Blending whatever odours make the gale

Of evening sweet, whatever melody

Charms the wood-traveller. In their high-roofed halls,

There, with the Chiefs of other days, feel they

The mingled joy pervade them? .. Or beneath

The mid-sea waters, did that crystal Ark

Down to the secret depths of Ocean plunge

Its fated crew? Dwell they in coral bowers

With Mermaid loves, teaching their paramours

The songs that stir the sea, or make the winds

Hush, and the waves be still? In fields of joy

Have they their home, where central fires maintain

Perpetual summer, where one emerald light

Through the green element for ever flows?

http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1805sout.htm#pg106

In Southey's own notes on this mystical passage, he says: "The Welsh traditions

say that Merddin made a House of Glass, in which he went to sea, accompanied by

the Nine Cylveirdd Bards, and was never heard of more..."

His very interesting explanation of these things, I have placed on-line, here:

http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1805sout.htm#pg269

I have supplied Merlin with light when he arrived at his world of mermankind,

but not for his submarine voyage; let Paracelsus do this.

"Urim and Thummim were the Philosopher's stone; and it was this which gave light in the Ark.

"For God commanded Noah to make a clear light in the Ark, which some take for a window; but since the text saith, Day and night shall no more cease; it seems it did then cease; and therefore there could be no exterior light.

"The Rabbis say that the Hebrew word Zohar, which the Chaldees translate Neher, is only to be found in this place. Other Hebrew Doctors believe it to have been a precious stone hung up in the Ark, which gave light to all living creatures therein. This the greatest Carbuncle could not do, nor any precious stone which is only natural. But the Universal Spirit, fixed in a transparent body, shines like the sun in glory; and this was the light which God commanded Noah to make." -- Paracelsus' Urim and Thummim.

What appears to be an English language extract from the "Urim & Thummim"

chapter in Paracelsus' book, "Of the Chymical Transmutation..." may be read in

Adam McLean's transcription of a short 17th century manuscript, located at

Oxford University, in the Bodleian Library's Ashmole manuscripts collection,

(in box 1415, folders 61-70). This text, entitled "The Glory of Light," may be

found on-line, here:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/glory_of_light.html

My own comments on Southey's epic poem, wherein Merlin's ancient undersea

voyage to the undiscovered Land of Promise (the Green Isles) prefigures

Madoc's own preColumbian voyage to the Americas, may be found here:

http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1805sout.htm#comments

Prince Madoc's two-masted barque (fanciful re-creation)

Early 19th cent. U. S. & U. K. Naval barques were 3-masted

Enjoy,

U. D.

[The Mormonator]

...I wish I could find a quote from Joseph saying exactly that, and perhaps I will. And perhaps somebody, for some unfathomable reason will become angry for hearing that said as well. If so, I'm more interested in hearing such persons' thoughts after their anger passes, than in dwelling upon predictable saintly misunderstandings.

...I wish you could find a quote of some nature, with references and such, that substantiates your thus far unsubstantiated claims about the Strangite Witnesses.

For some "unfathonable reason" you think you can make such prodigious assertions without a lick of substantiation. This sort of behavior is not so "saintly" in my opinion.

[Uncle Dale]

...I wish I could find a quote from Joseph saying exactly that, and perhaps I will. And perhaps somebody, for some unfathomable reason will become angry for hearing that said as well. If so, I'm more interested in hearing such persons' thoughts after their anger passes, than in dwelling upon predictable saintly misunderstandings.

...I wish you could find a quote of some nature, with references and such, that substantiates your thus far unsubstantiated claims about the Strangite Witnesses.

For some "unfathonable reason" you think you can make such prodigious assertions without a lick of substantiation. This sort of behavior is not so "saintly" in my opinion.

I thought we had agreed that I would leave your

Oliver Cowdery polling thread, -- because you had

there complained of just such things. ???

My reference to the Strangite witnesses and their

testimony was made only as an off-handed remark

of the sorts of "details" of non-LDS claims that I there

supposed you and I would NOT be interested in.

I regret now that I ever mentioned the Strangite witnesses.

I spoke of the four I had heard of, and another poster showed

my off-handed reference was incorrect -- that there were

more than four.

So I was wrong and it appears that you are right.

I can go back and delete my off-hand remark from my original

posting, in your polling thread if you request that I do that.

Or -- you can go to the FAIR moderators and ask them to review

the matter, and perhaps remove ALL of my postings here at FAIR.

Or -- you can accept my admission of making an off-handed

remark not at all germaine to the topic of your polling thread,

and move on to other things more useful to you.

The choice is in your hands.

Uncle Dale

[The Mormonator]

My reference to the Strangite witnesses and their

testimony was made only as an off-handed remark

of the sorts of "details" of non-LDS claims that I there

supposed you and I would NOT be interested in.

I am interested in both LDS claims and Non-LDS claim.

Why would I not be?

It is slightly annoying when when people "assume" that because I am a TBM I must have tunnel vision.

I regret now that I ever mentioned the Strangite witnesses.

I spoke of the four I had heard of, and another poster showed

my off-handed reference was incorrect -- that there were

more than four.

Well, You may have been both right and wrong. I have just discovered this myself about 10 minutes ago. Though the Strangite website lists seven Witnesses, I have found in the online book "The Assassination of a Michigan King: The Life of James Jesse Strang" at http://www.print.google.com/ that there were four witnesses who accompanied Strang to the oak tree under which they found the Brass Plates of Rajah Manchou Vorito. So, according to this book, there were four witnesses at the place of the digging. Where the other three come into the picture I haven't yet determined. I was unable to check the sources in the book because of the whole copyright thing in Google.

So I was wrong and it appears that you are right.

I can go back and delete my off-hand remark from my original

posting, in your polling thread if you request that I do that.

Or -- you can go to the FAIR moderators and ask them to review

the matter, and perhaps remove ALL of my postings here at FAIR.

Or -- you can accept my admission of making an off-handed

remark not at all germaine to the topic of your polling thread,

and move on to other things more useful to you.

The choice is in your hands.

I accept your admission.

I think it is perfectly fine to make off-handed remarks here on FAIR, just so long as they are clearly labeled as such. I think one can make this clear by attaching phrases such as these: "in my opinion", "these are just my personal thoughts on the matter. I cannot provide substantiation".

Of course I would not quibble if somebody were to state a commonly known fact without providing substantiatioin. For example, if you were to say, "Joseph Smith was born in Vermont." I would not have a problem with that because it can be reasonably assumed that everybody already knows that and knows it has been substantiated.

But in other cases, such as the Strangite Witnesses, I think it can be reasonably assumed that there are many people who do not know of such things and do not know of any substantiation.

[Uncle Dale]

I accept your admission.

I think it is perfectly fine to make off-handed remarks here on FAIR, just so long as they are clearly labeled as such...

Of course I would not quibble if somebody were to state a commonly known fact without providing substantiatioin. For example, if you were to say, "Joseph Smith was born in Vermont." I would not have a problem with that because it can be reasonably assumed that everybody already knows that and knows it has been substantiated. ...

I appreciate your gentlemanly answer and my estimation

of the value of your postings to the FAIR Message Boards

is likewise enhanced.

I have posted a note in your Strangite Witnesses thread,

and the whole matter can henceforth be addressed there,

to whatever extent it really need be pursued (perhaps not

too much, since authorities at levels higher than ours have

seemingly decided not to spend much effort in publishing a

great deal on this obscure topic, for the benefit of the general

readerships of the LDS and RLDS [CoC] churches).

Uncle Dale