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Rajah Manchou

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Posts posted by Rajah Manchou

  1. 11 hours ago, rodheadlee said:


    1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

    I’m pointing out that it could have happened. A lot of people smarter than me think it did. Your assertion in the OP is far from definitive. 
    So we’ve been arguing over nothing.  There are no definite facts. 

    Not sure he's on the board anymore, but we now know that there was likely contact between South Americans and Polynesians previous to the European arrival in the Americas:

    DNA reveals Native American presence in Polynesia centuries before Europeans arrived

    "The researchers found that contact between Polynesian individuals and a Native American group related to present-day Indigenous people in Colombia occurred as early as A.D. 1150—two centuries earlier than indicated by the 2014 DNA study. The place where the researchers could detect the earliest sign of contact was in Fatu Hiva, an island in the South Marquesas. Fatu Hiva is much farther from South America than Rapa Nui, but it could be more easily reached than Rapa Nui due to favorable trade winds and currents, notes archaeologist Paul Wallin of Uppsala University in an editorial accompanying the study in Nature.

    Wallin, who also worked at the Kon-Tiki Museum in Oslo, notes that the new results suggest that South Americans reached eastern Polynesia even before Polynesians from points west arrived, which would prove Heyerdahl “partly right.”

  2. On 9/23/2021 at 10:32 PM, Fair Dinkum said:

    It's long been known that the Islands of the Pacific were populated by a seafaring people migrating out of South East Asia not the America's.  Further studies have only doubled down on this reality.  All scientific specialties including DNA, Archeology, Palaeobotany, Paleolinguistics to name just a few, all support this SE Asian migration.  Other then some South American DNA that was introduced after the Book of Mormon timeline, in approximately 1200 AD and the sweet potato and gord, see here there is little to no reason we should refer to Pacific Islanders as Laminates.

    A new study just released in Nature seen here adds further support for this migration from south east Asia and not from the Americas.

    The evidence seems overwhelming that Pacific Islanders are not descendants of Lehi, in direct conflict with LDS tradition.  The church seems to have supplanted the actual culture of the Pacific Islanders with one found in the Book of Mormon of which this island population had no connection to.

    What if any evidence is there, other than that which I've shared, that would support our LDS tradition? If it exists, I would like to see it.  Otherwise is it time for the church to just admit they were wrong and give these people back their true identity and culture?

    More Here

    Found this article today and was reminded of this thread


    So with all this, are we equipped to say who the first Americans were? I think when all is said and done, we will find that the earliest humans in the New World were more closely related to the Australians and Papuans, rather than modern East Asians. In other words, the first modern humans who were present in the New World did not contribute much ancestry to today’s Native Americans at all. Only the ancestors of today’s indigenous South Americans genetically absorbed these earlier people who preceded the Beringians. This must have occurred more recently than 15,000 years ago when the Beringians arrived, and if the evidence for variation in ancestry in contemporary Amazonians is replicated, pockets of these earliest Americans may have persisted down to the relatively recent past.”

    It’s looking like there were people in the Americas before the ancestors of today’s Native Americans arrived, and those people resembled the present-day inhabitants of the Andaman Islands.  


  3. On 9/23/2021 at 10:32 PM, Fair Dinkum said:

    What if any evidence is there, other than that which I've shared, that would support our LDS tradition? If it exists, I would like to see it.  Otherwise is it time for the church to just admit they were wrong and give these people back their true identity and culture?

    Turns out @Fair Dinkum, that the Book or Mormon is a surprisingly accurate history of Austronesia.

    The SE Asian civilizations of Rahma and Komara rose and fell at the same time as the Land of Ramah and Cumorah in the Book of Mormon. Komara was founded by a warrior named Maroni, and around the close of the Book of Mormon these Komarans sailed into the Indian and Pacific Oceans carrying their genes from as far east as Madagascar and as far west as Brazil.

    The Comoros Islands were named after the Kumr or Komara of Southeast Asia. Here's one reference among many.

    Oh and the geography of ancient Komara and Rahma match the geographies of Cumorah and Rahma in the Book of Mormon.

  4. 9 hours ago, CV75 said:

    Rather, their rights were not honored or protected after the bill of rights ensured the organization of the Church as part of the initiation of the Restoration. 

    That's right, so not much substance to the argument that the Church could not have been established anywhere but the United States in the mid-19th century. The Church as we know it today was practically established in the middle of the desert of Mexico by European immigrants.

  5. On 8/22/2021 at 4:17 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

    Well there was the very creative Zelph (the white Lamanite) story. I would imagine that telling too many stories about the characters would become problematic without significant notes since you wouldn’t want to contradict the revealed text. 

    Or it demonstrates that Jospeh was not the author of the Book of Mormon.

    My opinion is that the Zelph and Prophet Onandagus story was Joseph trying to expand the Book of Mormon narrative to align with Samuel Mitchell's hypothesis that there was a great battle between a fair skinned race (white Lamanites) and a darker skinned race (Lamanites) in Onondaga County, next to Wayne County.

    Samuel Mitchell had recognized the characters on the Anthon transcript as being an authentic oriental script, so it made sense to align the BOM narrative to Mitchell's theory.

  6. 21 hours ago, InCognitus said:

    Also, there is a book that appears to be on the topic of your question that I have not read, but I have seen it reviewed in BYU Studies.  It is Gerald E. Smith. Schooling the Prophet: How the Book of Mormon Influenced Joseph Smith and the Early Restoration (Provo, Utah: Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, BYU, 2016).  I'd like to hear from anyone who has or has read this book.  The review of the book, by Mark Layman Staker, can be found in BYU Studies Quarterly, 55:3 here or here in PDF.  

    Thanks for these references. I'll have to pick up Schooling the Prophet.

    I'm looking for any references of Joseph discussing any of the stories or characters in the Book of Mormon. Were there any times he, for example, spoke of Nephi breaking his bow, or the Lehites building their ship to cross the waters, or retelling King Benjamin's speech to his followers?

    I don't find anything, and it seems unusual.

  7. 14 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

    If Joseph could inform the family on such issues before the publication of the Book of Mormon, why did not not do the same for his followers ever again? 

    Can anyone point me to examples or references of Joseph speaking publicly to his followers about the characters, geography or events found in the Book of Mormon?

  8. 19 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

    Do we have Dr. John's curriculum so that we can see and compare it?

    Yes. Someone had gone to Dartmouth and scanned them, but I can't find the link at the moment. Another resource is Richard Behrens:
    Dartmouth Arminianism And Its Impact on Hyrum Smith And the Smith Family
    Dreams, Visions, and Visitations: The Genesis of Mormonism

    19 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

    I don't follow, I'm afraid. Are you suggesting that Spaulding's nephew went to India and convinced a tribe that they were Israelites waiting for a golden book? 

    I'm suggesting that the origin story of the Book of Mormon narrative might seem remarkable to us today, but it appears to have been fairly commonplace among those who attended Dartmouth in the late 18th and early 19th century, including Hyrum Smith. For example, Behrens goes into some detail about Levi Spaulding's (Solomon Spaulding's nephew) conversion following a vision of light.

    Like I said earlier, I'm happily on the fence about Book of Mormon origins, and find all hypotheses to be almost equally interesting. I just don't see how it can be argued that the Book of Mormon could not have a natural explanation when there are other stories of such visions and golden books in the same time period told by people from the same school.

  9. 11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:


    Do you think it likely that the Spalding MS was the source of the Book of Mormon, and would it somehow bridge the gap with Early Modern English?

    I've always liked the idea that Asael Smith's cousin Dr. John Smith, who taught Solomon Spaulding and Ethan Smith, was the inspiration (in the prophetic sense) of all three related narratives:

    1. Spaulding's Manuscript
    2. View of the Hebrews
    3. Book of Mormon

    Dr. Smith taught Hebrew and curated the Hebrew collection at Dartmouth Library. He also ran his own bookshop. He wrote the curriculum that was still in place when Solomon Spaulding's nephews, Ehtan Smith's nephew and Hyrum Smith all attended Moor's Academy at Dartmouth together around 1815. 

    Dr. John's curriculum plus the stories about Native Americans (and Asian Indians) receiving the Gospel floating around Dartmouth in 1815 would have been a very likely source of the Book or Mormon narrative. All the elements were there under one roof.

    What's most interesting to me, is that this narrative was also carried by Spaulding's nephew from Dartmouth to India in the 1820s. I've been to the small village in Burma (named Chummerah) where, a year before the publication of the Book of Mormon, American missionaries discovered a tribe of Israelites who were waiting for Americans to return their lost Golden Book (inscribed on gold plates) containing their ancient spiritual history. 

    Considering the timing (1812-1830) and the actors (eg. Spaulding's nephew and Hyrum Smith's classmate), I don't see how this could be a simple coincidence.

  10. 22 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

    As someone who groaned under the burden of an artist's depiction of Captain Moroni riding a tapir, I really have to say the tables have turned.

    As someone who is happily on the fence about Book of Mormon historicity, I don't get the sense the tables have turned at all. Rather the arguments are getting more detailed and mature. instead of memes of Captain Moroni on a tapir people here are discussing the fine details about the hat that hid the light so that Joseph could view the stone.

  11. 7 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

    As a rule, within 10 years I take it at face value, and though details can get fuzzy with time I still generally regard the core material of a firsthand account as essentially reliable unless the person is demonstrably cognitively troubled. Additional witnesses help. 

    What is your opinion of the eight Conneaut witnesses published in 1834? 

  12. 9 hours ago, longview said:

    Pope Francis is well known to have a deep affinity for socialism and various radical causes.  As such, he is susceptible to the excesses of the extremist environmentalists and the false narratives of global warming.

    You're known to have a deep affinity to biased news sources. you are susceptible to their excesses

  13. 10 minutes ago, halconero said:

    My parents lived in Myanmar (Burma) for four years before moving back home last spring due to COVID-19. There were no language branches there, and they attended with the native-Myanmarese members, including the branch president highlighted in the October 2020 conference who learned from the picture Book of Mormon.

    That branch president was woken up a few nights ago by the military, and forced out of his home at gun point to go clean the streets after a demonstration. A young sister, just returned from a mission in Thailand, went from wearing a name tag to wearing a bandana, broke democracy t-shirts, and organizing street marches against the junta. She is currently in hiding, and my mom has been messaging her encouraging words, messages of love, and even Ezra Taft Benson quotes about freedom over Facebook.

    I've been in and out of Burma the past few decades, working with groups on the border. Many of them are also in hiding some have been thrown in prison. Although I agree with you that Oaks' talk will be comfort to the members of the Church in Myanmar, what is really critical at this point is that leaders in Congress condemn the military for not respecting the results of the election.

    Inexplicably 14 members of the House voted against such measures. Presumably to make some political point about election fraud, thinking a vote to condemn the Myanmar military might somehow invalidate their claims of election fraud in the US.

    14 House Republicans vote against a measure condemning military coup in Myanmar

    I don't think those 14 give a rip about the Constitution. 

  14. 3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

    It is a common silliness amongst ‘intellectual’ anarchy types. It wasn’t the main event or the purpose of the protests. There is another autonomous zone in Belgium if I remember right that has gone on for years. They usually collapse in a few months. It did. It was no threat.

    Since we are forever doomed to eternal whataboutism, might as well remind that the CHAZ was not the first occupied zone in the Pacific Northwest. 


    Our church and faith is all over the wikipedia article on that one. If I recall correctly, there was even an armed Captain Moroni defending it.

  15. 1 minute ago, SteveO said:

    You don’t know better.  There’s plenty of whataboutisms I could tick off that you’d probably just shrug your shoulders at.

    You know, his words can just as easily apply to someone like you and how you view members who voted for “R” in November...

    Dunno. Anyway, when I got to the end of Oakes’ talk I wondered if I could bring myself to vote across party lines if there was a more urgent and immediate requirement that took priority over my personal political views. I’m kinda embarrassed to admit that it’d be hard to do, and that’s a problem I should figure out.

  16. 8 minutes ago, SteveO said:

    you just know better.

    If someone I voted for had said the same thing, I probably wouldn’t know better. Party lines can be blinding.

    I am hopeful President Oakes’ comments on not being afraid to jump parties when it’s needed will help us all cut through that.  

  17. 17 minutes ago, SteveO said:

    Gimme a break.  You do know that came out as an outright lie that the Washington Post had to correct?

    Nah, I listened to the recording. I just wanna find 11780 votes is exactly word-for-word quote, but I’ll drop it because when we discuss these things about America the thread gets closed. I’ll stick to talking about nameless countries. 

  18. 27 minutes ago, SteveO said:

    Correct.  Before 2016, this never happened anywhere in the world, at any time, under any circumstance.


    My point being it happens often, even to the most exceptional nations, even as many are in denial that it nearly happened, to us. 

    Have to give credit to our Constitution, it hung by a thread, and got us through. 

  19. 8 hours ago, poptart said:

    Not suprised, I heard stories like this from mom who had them handed down.  Most polynesians who know their roots know the ancients were superb at sea.  While a lot of Europe was scratching things on cave walls and living in huts they were using the stars to navigate the seas.  

    Polynesians were experts, but like you say, they learned it from their ancestors. Their ancestors were the Kumr, the same people who settled (and named) Comoro Island and a likely candidate for the source of the Australasian genetic signal in the Americas.

    What if we're looking at everything backwards?

    The Book of Mormon setting is an island in the sea named Cumorah and Hagoth's ships sailed to South America in the 1st century BC. The Book of Mormon is an account of the former inhabitants of the American Continent and the islands from whence they came.

  20. 7 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

    It depends. Did a character from the book come back from the dead and present the book to someone and claim he abridged the record, 1600 years ago, which talks about his father and ancestors?

    No need for that. 

    It is why I find the History of the Rechabites to be such an interesting text. It's pretty much what the Book of Mormon claims to be. But there's no confusion about its origins and no burden of geography. No anachronisms or supernatural origins.

    It's just simply Another Testament of Jesus Christ, and it doesn't matter if its history or fiction. It does what its meant to do either way.

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