Rajah Manchou

On 1/31/2021 at 5:04 PM, PacMan said:

Check out 1:07:17. Clearly shows transoceanic voyages were possible and occurred. 

If you look at the map included with the video, you'll see that one of the source locations is a narrow neck of land that matches the geography of the Book of Mormon. It was known as Komara in Book of Mormon times. The DNA of the people who first settled in this narrow neck of land is heavily shifted towards the Middle East, including R1a-M420, R-M479, R-M17, and R-M124. They later traveled east through the Polynesian islands as far as South America and west as far as Madagascar.

Michael Coe himself stated that he believed the Maya of Mesoamerica were culturally connected to the ancient inhabitants of Komara.

7 hours ago, webbles said:

The "Letter of Appointment" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_appointment) is probably the main reason why so many of them accepted Strang.  I'd love to see that letter in the Joseph Smith papers.

I'd like to hear an explanation as to why it might remain excluded.

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure why you think that is difficult?  

We accept the statements of the 11 witnesses to the Book of Mormon. It seems likely those that lived through Joseph Smith's death accepted the claims of James Strang.

It's difficult because none of them accepted the claims of Brigham Young.

On 2/9/2021 at 10:31 PM, bluebell said:

Seeing as how we have quotes from Martin Harris himself about it those primary sources should naturally carry more weight than secondary sources.  

There were several secondary sources giving collective weight to the claims that Harris stated that he saw the plates with "spiritual eyes":

Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 2: 255. The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like." Pomeroy Tucker, Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1867), 71 in EMD, 3: 122. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye." John H. Gilbert, "Memorandum," 8 September 1892, in EMD, 2: 548. Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." Martin Harris interviews with John A. Clark, 1827 & 1828 in EMD, 2: 270; Jesse Townsend to Phineas Stiles, 24 December 1833, in EMD, 3: 22. In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination." Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838 in EMD, 2: 291. A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Reuben P. Harmon statement, c. 1885, in EMD, 2: 385.

The claim is also made, and I'm trying to confirm this, that all but one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon accepted James Strang's claims. 

James Strang was sustained as prophet by two other members of the first presidency, three members of the quorum of twelve, five presidents of the seventies, the president of the high priests quorum and his counselor, four men in presidencies of elders quorums, the president of the priests quorum, and eight bishops at the largest church locations including the bishop over the whole church, the patriarch over the whole church, and seven members of major stake presidencies including the Nauvoo stake president and the Kirtland stake president. He was also sustained by the presidents of the largest branches of the church, including Boston, Chicago, New York City, and Philadelphia. James Strang was believed by at least seventeen people who were personally addressed by name in the Doctrine and Covenants. Strang was supported by all of the family of Joseph Smith. He was joined by the mother, wife, and three sisters of Joseph Smith. He was sustained by the only surviving brother of Joseph Smith, and his brothers-in-law. He was believed by all of the living Book of Mormon witnesses, except one who was no longer a member of the church. http://www.strangite.org/Famous.htm

If true, it becomes difficult to say that all the witnesses to the Gold Plates were deceived by Strang.

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

No I don't agree.  I looked at the Strang-ite official webpage and it doesn't talk about the witnesses at all.  You can't get blood from a turnip.  Likewise, you can't get information about the witnesses to Strang's book from the official web page.  So I had to use other sources that provided actual quotes or other information.  It's not a perfect process, but it's not 'unfair'.  

Remember, all of the early Strangites were followers of Joseph Smith that also believed the gold plates were real. Despite how we might view them today, they were Mormons, followers of Joseph Smith and believers in the Book of Mormon. They didn't instantly become members of some weird cult when they decided Strang's plates were authentic.

As Weebles pointed out, the Voree Plates were on display for all to see. There was no need for witnesses to sign a statement that they saw them, because anybody could see them and hundreds of people did see them. Strang was simply following the precedent set by Joseph in getting signed statements from a set of witnesses.

Imagine if the Golden Plates were available for over a decade for anybody to handle and examine. Then imagine one or two of all those people, after they had a falling out with Joseph Smith, saying that those plates "look like common brass" or that they "helped Joseph make those plates out of a tea pot". You can't always believe the things that people say, when those people have a chip on their shoulders. This is what you are doing when you give weight to the later statements of the witnesses of the Voree Plates. 

By the way, Martin Harris (one of the three witnesses to the Golden Plates) joined the Strangites and served a mission for the Strangite Church in England. A neighbor of his famously said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Should we believe it?

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“Strangites” are at best misled and thus are not adherents to the restored Church of Jesus Christ. 

You're entitled to your opinion also, not going to agree with it. Moving on.

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m referring to President Nelson when I say “a prophet of God acting under divine inspiration with regard to the name of the Church.” I don’t understand why that wasn’t clear to you. 

Because you could have been referring to Joseph Smith receiving the revelation regarding the name of the Church. I would agree with you in that case. 

In other words, Strangites are also faithful adherents of the restored Church of Jesus Christ, even they don't meet the condition you propose.

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have only said that those who profess to be faithful adherents to the restored Church of Jesus Christ ought to themselves abide by the admonition of a prophet of God acting under divine inspiration with regard to the name of the Church. 

Not sure I understand what you're saying here. I'm reading it as "those who profess to be faithful adherents to the restored Church of Jesus Christ ought to themselves abide by the admonition of President Nelson." Have I misunderstood?

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why do you have to correct people? Just use the proper name yourself and allow them their freedom of choice. 

There's no way to enforce the proper name, because all the off-shoots and branches also claim the proper name. The entity called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was legally dissolved by the US government by ruling of the Supreme Court in 1887. The proper name is now the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints headquartered in SLC is not the only Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

http://www.strangite.org/Name.htm

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I can see this viewpoint on a doctrinal basis but not on a Priesthood basis.  The one man on earth holding the keys is a cornerstone Mormon doctrine.  I don't see how one could claim to follow Mormonism without a priesthood head.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (no hyphen) has a different perspective on priesthood and living prophets:

http://www.strangite.org/Prophets.htm

From Chapter 36 of the Book of the Law of the Lord:

PRIESTHOOD

1. There are two Priesthoods: the Priesthood of an endless life; and the Priesthood of life. (15, 72)

2. In the Priesthood of an endless life are two Orders; that of Apostles, and of Priests. (16, 68)

3. Of Apostles there are four Degrees. (6, 29)

4. The first Degree is that of Lawgiver, and is Apostle, Prophet, Seer, Revelator and Translator. This Degree is sole, and gives the word of God as from his own mouth. (30, 128)

5. The second Degree is that of Counsellor, and is Apostle, Prophet, Seer and King. (14, 63)

6. The third Degree is that of Embassador. Of these there shall be twelve. They shall be Apostles and witnesses to the nations, and Rulers in all places where the Lawgiver shall send them. (33, 149)

7. The fourth Degree is that of Evangelist. Evangelists are Apostles, and witnesses of the Kingdom, to whatever nation they are sent. Seven are a full Quorum; and there shall be but one Quorum to any nation, kindred, tongue or people. (40, 184)

8. Of Priests there are two Degrees. (6, 27)

9. The first Degree is that of High Priests. (8, 33)

10. The second Degree is that of Elders. (7, 29)

11. In the Priesthood of life are three Orders; that of Priest, of Teacher, and of Deacon. (16, 67)

12. Of Priests, of the Priesthood of life, there shall be a Chief Priest, a first and second High Priest, and a Leader of each Course of Priests, to every Temple. (30, 123)

13. This Priesthood shall be divided into Courses, according to the nature of their duties; and officers appointed in the several Courses, to guide and direct in the duties of the Course. In organizing the Courses, those may be included who have been ordained to a higher Priesthood. (47, 227)

14. Of Teachers there are five Degrees; Rabboni, Rabbi, Doctor, Ruler, and Teacher. (12, 62)

15. Of Deacons there are three Degrees; Marshals, Stewards, and Ministers. (10, 57)

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

Any word on what happened to the plates in question?

11 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I was really hoping that wasn't going to be the answer ☹

Depends on which plates. After Strang extracted the plates referred to as The Record of Rajah Manchou of Vorito, they weren't hidden or concealed. Strang carried them around with him and was fond of showing them to everyone he met. There were several people, both Mormon and non-Mormon, who observed and described them. There was no attempt to hide them and they were not returned to an angel. They just went missing after Strang was killed.

The members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strang used the full name before the Brighamite branch adopted it with a hyphenated Latter-day) have a page on the Voree Record.

http://www.strangite.org/Plates.htm

27 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hey, I now see where your name and picture come from. Are you/were you a Strangite?

I looked into affiliating at one point, but at present I guess I'm a "non-denominational Mormon", meaning I adhere to the Mormon faith but I do not follow any single branch of Mormonism.

In my opinion, there was revelation that came through Strang that is relevant to our day, just as there was revelation that came through the Brighamite branch. At some point, I expect all Mormon branches will come together.

9 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Through all my research in the past 2 months this page for some reason has affected me more than anything else. Does anyone no of a good place or book that could help me research the Strangites? Also, does it bother anyone else that 5000 people followed this man?

I had a very similar reaction when I first learned of Strang and his brand of Mormonism.

Many influential members of the early Church were convinced Strang was to be the successor to Joseph:

Strang's letter convinced several eminent Mormons of his claims, including Book of Mormon witnesses John and David Whitmer, Martin Harris and Hiram Page. In addition Apostles John E. Page, William E. M'Lellin, and William Smith, together with Nauvoo Stake President William Marks, and Bishop George Miller,[e] accepted Strang. Joseph Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, and three of his sisters accepted Strang's claims. According to the Voree Herald, Strang's newspaper, Lucy Smith wrote to one Reuben Hedlock: "I am satisfied that Joseph appointed J.J. Strang. It is verily so." According to Joseph Smith's brother William, all of his family (except for Hyrum and Samuel Smith's widows), endorsed Strang. (source)

Although most of them eventually changed their minds.

In my opinion, the revelation of the Rajah Manchou plates and the Plates of Laban to James Strang are the most underestimated events in early Mormon history.

11 hours ago, Ahab said:

Socialism is technically defined as: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.  I think of "we the people"...

Many people think of Socialism as a bad thing because they think that means Government would be deciding everything, but Government is WE THE PEOPLE so I don't see that as a problem, necessarily.

Its always a convenient boogeyman to remove democratic from the term democratic socialism. Makes it sound scarier.

14 hours ago, gav said:

I live in the Africa South East area and Judah is coming out in spades in patriarchal blessings of black africans. This is backed up in some cases by genetic studies 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/zimbabwe-s-quot-black-jews-quot-the-lemba-people

Apologies for bringing this up so often over the past few years, I just find it so fascinating and curious. The Lemba Jews are genetically similar to the native inhabitants of the nearby Comoros Islands, suggesting they both came from across the sea with the migrants that first populated the islands:

Interestingly, there are a number of similarities between the genetic profile of the Comoros islanders and the Lemba of South Africa, a Bantu speaking people whose Semitic origins are evident at both the cultural and genetic level. The Lemba have high frequencies of the Middle Eastern Y-chromosome HgJ-12f2a (25%), a potentially SEA Y, Hg-K(xPQR) (32%) and a Bantu Y, E-PN1 (30%) (similar to E-M2), raising the possibility that the Lemba and Comorian populations are consequences of similar demographic processes. The high-resolution genotyping of the Lemba Y chromosomes and mitochondria will elucidate this question. (source)

I believe the Comoros Islands, with the capital of Moroni, were named by those in Hagoth's ships, and their descendants are the Comorian and Lemba Jews. The native homeland of the Comorians was a peninsula that, during Book of Mormon times, was called Komara.

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

suggest that a 16th or 17th century scholar composed the Book of Mormon based on then available information.

A 16th or 17th century scholar who composed the Book of Mormon, or perhaps translated the text that became the Book of Mormon. Either way, a set of metal plates with that account seemingly end up in the knapsack of a heavy set man, about 5'9, in a brown woolen suit who was hanging out around the house where Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon.

In the earliest accounts, Moroni seems to be a traveller on his way to Cumorah with a package that was delivered to Joseph Smith. It doesn't seem improbable to me that the Book of Mormon was written or translated a few hundred years before 1830.

Source: Mary Whitmer and Moroni: Experiences of an Artist in Creating a Historical Painting

2 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

We haven't even attempted a discussion about the unusual logic of some translator a hundred years before Joseph. That couldn't have been done on earth,

Why could it not have been done on Earth a hundred years before Joseph?

There were plenty of 'ancient texts' being translated a hundred or so years before Joseph. There was a case of such a text being discovered in Detroit by the business partner of Joseph's Uncle. A similar text (later determined to be a translation of ancient Irish history) was discovered in a cave in Sandusky New York. I find it interesting that Carmack has found commonalities between the Book of Mormon and northern histories like Macpherson's Ossian 

It would only take an elderly Scottish trader, a wandering Swedenborgian minister, or an Old Believer (let's call him Moroni) with such a text in his rucksack to cross paths with Joseph. This Moroni could have communicated the core narrative of that text to Joseph, and Joseph then 'translated' the dictation he received from Moroni. 

This is not too far from the accounts of Moroni given by Leman Copely, Mary Whitmer and David Whitmer:

"When I was returning to Fayette with Joseph and Oliver all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us, while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon who saluted us with, “good morning, it is very warm,” at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and by a sign from Joseph I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, “No, I am going to Cumorah.” This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked round enquiringly of Joseph the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again."

46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

As we have sadly seen in Seattle, whoever holds the camera and the editing button controls the material we see. When the Seattle mayor described the CHOP/CHAZ debacle on Capitol Hill as “the summer of love,” the media’s coverage made it look like a farmers market/street fair with entertainers, free food and water, hugs all around. The reality was that it was a planned and armed insurrection that drove the police out of their precinct building while the city surrendered to a bunch of hoodlums. The result was mayhem, anarchy, and eventually death. But it was portrayed as just “peaceful protest.”

The good thing is we, left or right, don't have to defend any of them.

Quote

By comparison, the breach at the Capitol had the feel of a frat party.  

A frat party? Are we watching the same footage? Probably not. Our preferred media outlets have their biases too.

1 hour ago, longview said:

I am shocked at your perspective.

And I'm shocked at yours. Bias will do that to us.

6 hours ago, longview said:

Regardless of what may have transpired, the fact that 25,000 national guardsmen were brought in is considered to be an appalling over-reaction.  It is chilling how we have been turned into thuggish repressive banana regime.  The sea of flags covering the mall is evocative of the Red Square propaganda military marches orchestrated in the old Soviet Union.

If you thought the government didn't do enough when rioters stormed the Embassy in Benghazi to murder our Ambassador, but think they've over-reacted after rioters stormed the Halls of Government to hang the Vice President of the United States, you might have a political bias that needs to be checked

26 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

It was a caricature of conservative thought. I do not know any conservatives that match the description in that video. And that is one thing wrong with such dismissal. It does nothing to bring people together but is rather is a continuation of polarization efforts that are having deleterious effects on our society.

I think the question captures the tension between progressives and conservatives. You could just as easily whip up a video with a list of things progressives say they love about America, but moan about on social media.

But I'm genuinely curious how you and others who embrace American Exceptionalism answer the question. What aspects of America today (not 1776, or the Reagan Years or the Millenium) do you love? What about America right now is exceptional?

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

A caricature.

What aspects of America today, right now, do you love?

I'm not asking which decade was the best, or which American ideals, aspirations or concepts you love, but what is happening in the country right this moment that you hope other countries might emulate?

What about America today is exceptional?

35 minutes ago, Douglas Avans said:

You've put your finger right on it, Rajah.  Remember that Bicentennial address that Spenser W. Kimball gave, "The False Gods We Worship"?   I think his words still stand today.  

His monkey and the box analogy does communicate well the though I've struggled to form the past few weeks. It sometimes feels like we're so attracted to the idea of America that we stubbornly refuse to let go of tradition. We're going bankrupt. We're literally fighting in the streets and storming the halls of government. Our two-party political system and electoral process has flaws. The Constitution requires a few updates. Treating it like some infallible stone tablet etched by the finger of God isn't going to carry us through to the Kingdom of God.