Sevenbak
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Posts posted by Sevenbak
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This was a great read, thanks!
I've also heard that the Greek myth of the Golden Fleece might have a connection to the Adamic skin.
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Rather than "other", it would be good to add the hemispheric model, adhered to by the early brethren and most through the 1970's, and by many still. The other models are new to the game.
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I worked on this project with my students and I can tell you this has been something that has been in the works for some time, this isn’t a PR stunt by any means. In fact the university higharchy or the church didn’t even know of our project until the last few weeks. We’ve been planning this for about a year and started traveling and shooting back in early May. The Black 14 were invited to campus at our request, in the school of communications, to coincide with this long planned game against Wyoming, not the university’s invite. I would say the Lord has remarkable timing! The documentary that we did on their story can be seen here.
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On 9/17/2021 at 11:18 PM, rchorse said:
I am seeing this, but I think it's largely a US and maybe European thing. It seems to me that in a lot of other countries, the opposite is happening. It reminds me of the Nephites falling away while the Lamanites grew more righteous, the last shall be first, the first last and all that.
It's just my opinion, but Utah and the US are fading as the core strength of the church, and the decline will only accelerate. But I believe the church elsewhere will grow stronger at an increasing rate that more than compensates.
Agreed. But I think it has been foreseen that this would happen.
3 Nephi 16: 10
And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall asin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be blifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and cmurders, and dpriestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall ereject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
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16 minutes ago, InCognitus said:
I respect that view and certainly understand it. And I don't claim to know for certain how those passages should be interpreted, so I could be wrong. I'm just trying to take a fresh approach to what the text is saying without reading preconceived views into the text.
I appreciate that too. This is one of the reasons I'm grateful for prophets and correlation. I don't know of any that take a modern approach to the text.
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19 minutes ago, InCognitus said:
I understand that some church leaders have interpreted the passages as referring to continental land shifts (and I've read the quotes before), but I also know that some of them have acquired various interpretations from traditional or even Protestant sources (or Seventh Day Adventist sources in the case of Joseph Fielding Smith and his ideas on creationism - see the video I posted previously, and also this source, for example). And as far as I can tell, none of them had any additional revelation to support their views, they were simply explaining the scriptures as they understood them at the time.
This quote from Joseph Smith isn't saying anything different than what it says in the verses, really. What happened "in the days of Peleg" is the issue under interpretation. If we understand that in the full context of Genesis 10, wherein the people were broken apart and went into their own isolated areas in the earth, it seems to me that Joseph is saying exactly the same thing I was trying to say above regarding the people of Zion, where the reverse of Genesis 10 takes place: We all become a Zion people, of one heart, one mind, one language, one people.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I'll stick with the correlation committee and official teachings.
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9 hours ago, InCognitus said:
I think this has already been explained well by OGHoosier above. At the beginning of Ether 13, Moroni is explaining that Ether had told the people everything from the beginning, which I take it to mean that he included the creation. So it's not a set sequence of events in that sentence. He is saying that "this land" had been set aside as a choice land above all other lands since the creation, from the very moment it emerged from the waters of creation.
Doctrine and Covenants section 133 uses a lot of prophetic imagery in describing the gathering of Israel, and it draws upon several ancient prophecies. For example, verse 22 says that the Lamb will speak and his voice will be as a "great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found". Similar verses are found in Isaiah (40:4) and in other prophets, but elsewhere Isaiah also indicates that he's not talking about literal "mountains":
"For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up" (Isaiah 2:12-14)
And the New Testament makes similar comparisons, like in Luke 1:52 "He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree." So I am inclined to take a similar approach to interpreting the rest of the context of section 133.For example, verse 23 states that the "great deep.. shall be driven back into the north countries", but verses 26 and 27 say "they who are in the north countries shall come... And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep". So it's obviously not as simple as saying the oceans are pushed aside and the land masses become one land again.
As for verses 23-24, I do think it is making an allusion to Genesis chapter 10, but not the way you are thinking in a continental shifting kind of way. It could be that the "islands" that become "one land" are the direct undoing of what happened in Genesis 10:5: "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations." In Genesis 10 the people were all scattered and confused by their different languages and different goals, and went off into their own isolated areas (islands). The antithesis of that (as described in D&C 133) is that we all become a Zion people, of one heart, one mind, one language, one people. And the next verse, verse 25, seems to make this very point: "And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh".
I do understand that there will be physical changes in the earth when it becomes terrestialized and celestialized, but I'm not sure that D&C 133 is describing that.
While that is certainly a good alternative explanation, it is a new one, which I don't subscribe to. Joseph Smith, John Taylor, Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, and other prophets all taught specifically about the literal division of the earth shortly after the flood, and it's coming together again at the 2nd coming. It is the unchanged correlated teaching in the institute manuals, and is not figurative.
Joseph Smith:
". . . the Eternal God hath declared that the great deep shall roll back into the north countries and that the land of Zion and the land of Jerusalem shall be joined together, as they were before they were divided in the days of Peleg. No wonder the mind starts at the sound of the last days!"
"...That it comes to open the way for Zion to rise and put on her beautiful garments and become the glory of the earth, that her land may be joined, or married (according to the known translation of Isaiah) to Jerusalem again, and they be one as they were in the days of Peleg."
John Taylor:
"How far the flood may have contributed, to produce the various changes, as to the division of the earth into broken fragments, islands and continents, mountains and valleys, we have not been informed; the change must have been considerable. But after the flood, in the days ofPeleg, the earth was divided.—a short history, to be sure, of so great an event; but still it will account for the mighty revolution, which rolled the sea from its own place in the north, and brought it to interpose between different portions of the earth, which were thus parted asunder, and moved into something near their present form; this, together with the earthquakes, revolutions, and commotions which have since taken place, have all contributed to reduce the face of the earth to its present state; while the great curses which have fallen upon different portions, because of the wickedness of men, will account for the stagnant swamps, the sunken lakes, the dead seas, and great deserts."
" . . . after the flood, in the days of Peleg, the earth was divided.—See Genesis 10:25,—a short history, to be sure, of so great an event; but still it will account for the mighty revolution, which rolled the sea from its own place in the north, and brought it to interpose between different portions of the earth, which were thus parted asunder, and moved into something near their present form . . .”
Joseph Fielding Smith:
"We read in Genesis that in the beginning all of the land surface was in one place as it was in the days of Peleg,22 that the earth was divided. Some Bible commentators have concluded that this division was one concerning the migrations of the inhabitants of the earth between them, but this is not the case. While this is but a very brief statement, yet it speaks of a most important event. The dividing of the earth was not an act of division by the inhabitants of the earth by tribes and peoples, but a breaking asunder of the continents, thus dividing the land surface and creating the Eastern Hemisphere and Western Hemisphere. By looking at a wall map of the world, you will discover how the land surface along the northern and southern coast of the American Hemisphere and Europe and Africa has the appearance of having been together at one time. Of course, there have been many changes on the earth’s surface since the beginning. We are informed by revelation that the time will come when this condition will be changed and that the land surface of the earth will come back again as it was in the beginning and all be in one place. This is definitely stated in the Doctrine and Covenants in the following words:
When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.
For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion."
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19 hours ago, InCognitus said:
Note the context, "from the beginning of man". This is referring to Genesis 1:9 (and the topical guide footnote to Earth, Dividing of, includes this reference) : "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so." (Genesis 1:9)
So it's not talking about the flood of Noah.
I appreciate that, but I'm not following your line of thought. "From the beginning of man" is obviously AFTER the waters were divided in the formation of the earth. Man came after that period of time. The reference made in Ether is exactly what it says, and that the waters receding came after the beginning of man. "For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord.
How does the creation period dividing of the waters happen after the beginning of man?
As to your reference in the topical guide of Earth, DIviding of, the very next reference of D&C 133:24 puts it into context. Note that the division cross reference is in the time of Peleg. I've always appreciated the Church's correlated stance on that literal division of the continents shortly after the flood. And that they will be gathered together again at the 2nd coming.
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On 6/22/2021 at 8:52 AM, Fair Dinkum said:
In 3 Nephi 22:9 we read of Jesus speaking to the surviving populations in the America's upon His appearance in America. While most of his comments are merely a duplication of his ministry in the Holy Land one bizarre remark stands out in that it confirms the reality of the Universal Flood Myth.
Why does Jesus mislead His Nephite audience by propagating the flood myth?
Ether and/or Moroni sure taught the flood was global.
Ether 13:2
2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had areceded from off the face of this bland it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should cserve him who dwell upon the face thereof;2 -
1 hour ago, ttribe said:
Yep, I'm seeing that.
Edwin Rushton recorded the WHP about 1900.
The other references to the specific part about the constitution are too numerous and too early to be even lumped into the same category with his version and all the extraneous stuff that is in dispute. The chicken clearly came first and Rushton has egg on his face. :-)1 -
3 minutes ago, ttribe said:
[shrug] Okay. My question was one of curiosity, not the pursuit of some deep knowledge.
Not trying to delve into mysteries. Just trying to answer your question. It would seem the question is best answered with another... which came first, the chicken or the egg? Or in this case, WHP or Constitution/thread...
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21 minutes ago, Duncan said:
This proves nothing, it seems like they just passed on a rumour
My favourite is from Elder Hyde, "it is said" that's the definition of a rumour, and he even knew Joseph Smith and he even said it's dubious
Elder Hyde, from the Ensign article linked above, does not say it's a rumor, he say's that's how he recollected it. You'll have to show me where Hyde said the statement was dubious, because I can't find any such reference. Or is that your idea?
"Orson Hyde recalled that the Prophet predicted that “the time would come that the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow and said he, if the constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language as nearly as I can recollect it.”
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1 hour ago, ttribe said:
...If they all are rooted in White Horse, then that puts them all in that bucket, for example.
If White Horse is rooted in them...
There, fixed it for ya.
The WHP spouts a lot more than just the constitution hanging by as thread. That isn't the part that has been rejected. The constitution hanging by a thread was preached about both before and after the WHP came to surface. Be careful not to confuse the 2...
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22 hours ago, ttribe said:
Is there something other than the White Horse Prophecy that those things would be rooted in?
Lots.
Ensign, Various Authors, June 1976
[T]he time would come when the constitution and government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter-day Saints will step forth and save it. —Recorded by James Burgess
Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction. —Joseph SmithThe government is fallen and needs redeeming. It is guilty of Blood and cannot stand as it now is but will come so near desolation as to hang as it were by a single hair!!!!! Then the servants goes [sic] to the nations of the earth, and gathers the strength of the Lord’s house! A mighty army! And this is the redemption of Zion when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory! —Joseph Smith, recorded by Parley P. Pratt.
The time will come when the government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints–the Elders of Israel–will step forward to its rescue and save it. —Joseph Smith, recorded by Eliza R. Snow.
When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe. —Joseph Smith, recorded by Jedediah M. Grant
Conference Report, Charles W. Nibley, October 1923
Brethren and sisters, let me say in closing that we have it of record, that the prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when, through secret organizations taking the law into their own hands, not being governed by law or by due process of law, but becoming a law unto themselves, when, by those disintegrating activities, the Constitution of the United States would be so torn and rent asunder, and life and property and peace and security would be held of so little value, that the Constitution would, as it were, hang by a thread. But he never said, so far as I have heard, that that thread would be cut. I believe, with Elder Richards, that this Constitution will be preserved, but it will be preserved very largely in consequence of what the Lord has revealed and what this people, through listening to the Lord and being obedient, will help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission. That also is what we are here for. I glory in it. I praise God with all my heart and soul that I am a member of it.
Conference Report, Ezra Taft Benson, October 1961
In connection with attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” (Journal History, Brigham Young’s Speech, July 4, 1854.) It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.
Conference Report, J. Reuben Clark, October 1942
You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance. I have said to you before, brethren, that to me the Constitution is a part of my religion. In its place it is just as much a part of my religion as any other part. It is a part of my religion because it is one of those institutions which God has set up for His own purposes, and, as one of the brethren said today, set up so that this Church might be established, because under no other government in the world could the Church have been established as it has been established under this Government.
Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 12:43
How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.
Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 2:32
Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. We love the Constitution of our country; it is all we could ask; though in some few instances there might be some amendments made which would better it. We love the Federal Government, and the laws of Congress. There is nothing in those laws that in the least militates against us, not even to our excluding common law from this Territory. I can inform our lawyers who plead at the bar here, that the Congress of the United States have passed laws giving us the privilege of excluding common law at our pleasure, and that too with out any violation of the Constitution, or general statutes. They have also given us privilege to stop drunkenness, swearing, and gambling, and to prevent horse racing, and to punish men for hurting and robbing each other. The Constitution of the United States, and the whole Federal Government, in their acts, have given us this privilege.
Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 7:2
Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It will be so. With regard to the doings of our fathers and the Constitution of the United States, I have to say, they present to us a glorious prospect in the future, but one we cannot attain to until the present abuses in the Government are corrected.
Journal of Discourses, John Taylor 25:41
[I]t looks very much like as though the time was drawing near when this country will tumble to pieces; for if the people of this nation are so blind and in fatuated as to trample under foot the Constitution and other safeguards provided for the liberties of man, we do not propose to assist them in their suicidal and traitorous enterprises; for we have been told by Joseph Smith that when the people of this nation would trample upon the Constitution, the Elders of this Church would rally round the flag and defend it. And it may come to that; we may be nearer to it than some of us think, for the people are not very zealous in the protection of human rights. And when legislators, governors and judges unite in seeking to tear down the temple of liberty and destroy the bulwarks of human freedom, it will be seen by all lovers of liberty, that they are playing a hazardous game and endangering the perpetuity of human rights. For it will not take long for the unthinking to follow their lead, and they may let loose an element that they never can bind again. We seem to be standing on a precipice and the tumultuous passions of men are agitated by political and party strife; the elements of discord are seething and raging as if portending a coming storm; and no man seems competent to take the helm and guide the ship of State through the fearful breakers that threaten on every hand. These are dangerous things, but it becomes our duty as good citizens to obey the law as far as practicable, and be governed by correct principles.
Journal of Discourses, Orson Hyde 6:23
It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he said something like this–that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it.
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In related news, the science keeps changing, and statements made in the past have to be changed to to support the status quo.
Remember that ice age horse discovered a couple years ago in Lehi Utah?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/03/science/horse-skeleton-utah.html
Well... this week they announced that the horse had been ridden, and so naturally could only be a few hundred years old, instead of thousands of years.
Oh the frailties of men. When they are learned they think they are wise...
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On 12/2/2020 at 2:50 PM, ksfisher said:
That's fantastic. I'm glad they were found.
Me too. I love how rich and deep, and how detailed the color and texture is...
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1 hour ago, ksfisher said:
"While the paintings are exposed to the elements, they are protected by overhanging rock, which means they remain in better condition than other rock art found in the Amazon."
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/amazon-rainforest-ice-age-paintings-scli-intl/index.html
Have you seen all the pics? Wide ones too? There are 8 miles of these cliffs, that are full of the art panels. And while some naturally have overhangs, others don't. You can literally see the water marks, and the still clear imagery.
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1 hour ago, katherine the great said:
If these type of ancient pigments were made in even remotely the same way as modern paint I might agree with you. These are mineral paints. They actually become a part of the rock that they are painted on.
Obviously the Behr paint reference was in jest, but pointing out how paints and finishes fade. I actually am one that tends to give the ancients a lot of credit they don't normally get from scientific circles. They knew and did a lot more than we typically attribute to them. But I have seen a ton of faded red ochre rock art (My graduate thesis was about documenting So. Utah rock art) dating to much later time periods and milder climates than these in Columbia, which are largely pristine. It needs further study. They look too good to be 12000 years old, exposed in the rainforest.
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24 minutes ago, katherine the great said:
Believe what you like.
If Behr came out with a 12000 year guarantee on an exterior paint, I'd be a believer. As it is, I think they do offer a 15 year Warranty. 😉
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16 minutes ago, katherine the great said:
A worked iron artifact will fall apart over time but mineral based pigments are very durable. They aren’t datable though.
Relative dating based on the fossil record that we have (using index fossils) is probably the only way to really date this. At least that I know of. Sometimes an animal thought to be extinct by such and such a time frame shows up unexpectedly much later. But the odds of all of these creatures in these paintings being wrong are probably pretty slim.Sorry, no sale here. Even with today's highly refined and fortified paints, things out in the open - houses, bridges, etc, MUST be repainted on a regular basis every 10-20 years. 12000 years out in the open in wet and extreme conditions looking clear and sharp is just improbable. I've seen red ochre paint on glyphs in the southwest, where it's dry and enclosed, and have been dated to 1000 years ago using fire hearth charcoal and lithic fragments, that have faded compared to more recent rock art.
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The article states that the age determination was made because those animals didn't exist here prior to accepted theories. Talk about the cart driving the (ahem) horse.
What I would like to know is how does such a massive and broad collection of red ochre paint that is out in the open in a humid tropical rainforest, on exposed clif walls, with runoff etc, survive intact for 12000 years. My son served his mission in the amazon rainforest just south of there. When it rains, as it does often, it's torrential deluge! Something doesn't pass the smell test...
'Some drawings depict long-extinct animals including the mastodon, palaeolama, giant sloths and Ice Age horses, which helped with the dating process, the Guardian reported.'
“We started seeing animals that are now extinct,” team leader and Exeter University archaeology professor José Iriarte told the Guardian. “The pictures are so natural and so well-made that we have few doubts that you’re looking at a horse, for example. The [Ice Age] horse had a wild, heavy face. It’s so detailed, we can even see the horsehair. It’s fascinating.” https://nypost.com/2020/11/30/thousands-of-ice-age-paintings-discovered-in-amazon-rainforest/
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If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that you think Lehi left Jerusalem after it was sacked? Why do you not think it happened before Nebuchadnezzar? There were 2 invasions from him, in 597 BC and 587 BC. Lehi left around 600 BC. In fact, Jacob sees in vision the destruction of Jerusalem and its inhabitants being carried away captive, after they were in the promised land, years later. (2 Nephi 6:8)
Does the references you mentioned happen during the first of 2nd siege from Babylon? If it was in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, then Jerusalem still had a king (albeit appointed by Nebekenezer). I'm guessing the sacking you're referring to happened in 587, long after Lehi was gone. JMHO
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10 minutes ago, Sandra Day OTanner said:
I am pleased that Senator Lee compared Captain Moroni to a great US president.
We are admonished to seek good men to be our leaders, not just good leaders...
D&C 98:
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.2 -
16 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:
He especially hits home with that passage about Captain Moroni Picking up the banner of liberty and then said "Ouch! my bone spurs are acting up....you know I think that Ammonite - who should consider himself lucky we even let him into our Nephite lands - can probably hold this for me while I watch from a distance and work the markets/banks for millions of dollars"
Classic Captain Moroni right there
Millions of Senines perhaps?
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The Girl Who Taught Joseph Smith To Use Magic
in General Discussions
Posted
No thanks. There are enough legitimate sources of this information without having to go to "mormon outreach" sites.