Sevenbak

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think you have some competing dibs on that one.

For now, just rent something cheaper up in the foothills... then wait until the seas heave themselves beyond their bounds with all the tectonic movements, cleaning out the beach homes in the Malibu district, then swoop in and get something for pennies on the dollar...

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If this annoys you then you are really on the wrong board. A substantial number of the people here are convinced all dead bodies are going to come back to life due to a vile necromantic ritual a Jewish demigod wizard did a few millennia back.

Did you get lost on your way somewhere else and wind up here by accident?

He is kind of on to something.  Just don't tell him that:

Moses's rod acted kind of like a wand.  It even turned into a snake like some possessed horcrux.

Joseph in Egypt gazed into his precious silver cup and practiced divination.

Elisha uttered a curse against young boys and they were torn apart by bears.

Drawing lots with strange markings was a favorite method of divining God's will.

Saul consulted a Urim for guidance.

Paul cursed someone with blindness.

Jesus spat in clay and cured blindness. He changed water to wine, made dead people rise, shriveled plants he didn't like with a curse, disappeared into thin air... etc.

Peter cursed a lying woman and she died.

John said God would give a white stone with secret words written on it to believers...

And that's just a few...

Those pesky prophet and their magic... I'm totally thinking a biblical Harry Potter remake is in order...

12 hours ago, snowflake said:

I was at the cliffs of Moher last spring (not my photo), Just amazing the layers stacked up here, no evidence of erosion between the layers......, strata layed down perfectly symmetrical by water. I'm often amazed the assumptions people make, and simply disregard obvious signs of a global flood. Then replace God's word with lies that they have been taught since pre-school. We see layered strata all over the world as evidence of a global flood. 

 

Nice pic, looks like the Cliffs of Insanity.   Inconceivable.

23 hours ago, sunstoned said:

There is no physical or scientific evidence for any of this.  Any division of the continents happened over 200 million years ago.  There is no physical evidence of a global flood, and a mountain of scientific facts that point to it never happening.  The least of which is that the written history of several nations, like Egypt remain uninterrupted through the time the flood supposedly took place.   

That's the view of some.   Other's look at massive unbroken folded layers of rock along fault lines that would have required intense heat and horizontal thrust to create.  That is not something that happens over 200 million years.

Scientists base their assumptions on current movements and measurements.  I say they are shortsighted.  When God describes the process as the "...^avoice of many waters, and as the voice of a great ^bthunder, which shall ^cbreak down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found." 

...Then I can safely say that I refuse to pray at the alter of science.  I'll respect it, and value it's contributions, but don't accept all as truth, just because society tells me to.

On 4/18/2018 at 3:06 PM, clarkgoble said:

 A good article on the influence of Seventh-day Adventist thinkers on this matter on Joseph Fielding Smith and company is this Dialog article.

Why do you think this teaching originated with Joseph Fielding Smith? 

“The Eternal God hath declared that the great deep shall roll back into the north countries and that the land of Zion and the land of Jerusalem shall be joined together, as they were before they were divided in the days of Peleg. No wonder the mind starts at the sound of the last days!” -Joseph Smith

On 4/18/2018 at 3:06 PM, clarkgoble said:

 

Since Pres. Hinkley became President there's been a move away from such things...

CFR?

On 4/18/2018 at 3:06 PM, clarkgoble said:

 

although I think Pres. Nelson still believes in a young earth and a global flood.

I don't believe Pres. Nelson believes in a young earth.  He does however, teach no death before the fall.  Those are not one and the same, not at all.

On 4/18/2018 at 3:06 PM, clarkgoble said:

It'd be helpful if you could supply references so we know what you're talking about.

Here you go.  These are all current manuals in the curriculum.  All reference a very real and physical separation of the continents post flood as well as point to their return to their original state.

Old Testament Manual, Chapter 4:  https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-4-11-the-patriarchs?lang=eng

Old Testament Manual, Chapter 16:  https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/chapter-16?lang=eng

Old Testament Manual, Chapter 18:  https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/chapter-18?lang=eng

New Testament Manual, Chapter 55: https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/revelation/chapter-55-revelation-12-16?lang=eng

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Section 133: https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-133-the-lords-appendix-to-the-doctrine-and-covenants?lang=eng

Ensign articles:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/03/early-families-of-the-earth?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1971/03/gondwanaland-what-it-means-to-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

Some statements from the prophets:

Joseph Smith

That it comes to open the way for Zion to rise and put on her beautiful garments and become the glory of the earth, that her land may be joined, or married (according to the known translation of Isaiah) to Jerusalem again, and they be one as they were in the days of Peleg.  ¹²

John Taylor

#1: How far the flood may have contributed, to produce the various changes, as to the division of the earth into broken fragments, islands and continents, mountains and valleys, we have not been informed; the change must have been considerable. But after the flood, in the days ofPeleg, the earth was divided.— ¹³,—a short history, to be sure, of so great an event; but still it will account for the mighty revolution, which rolled the sea from its own place in the north, and brought it to interpose between different portions of the earth, which were thus parted asunder, and moved into something near their present form; this, together with the earthquakes, revolutions, and commotions which have since taken place, have all contributed to reduce the face of the earth to its present state; while the great curses which have fallen upon different portions, because of the wickedness of men, will account for the stagnant swamps, the sunken lakes, the dead seas, and great deserts.  ¹⁴

#2: . . . after the flood, in the days of Peleg, the earth was divided.—See Genesis 10:25,—a short history, to be sure, of so great an event; but still it will account for the mighty revolution, which rolled the sea from its own place in the north, and brought it to interpose between different portions of the earth, which were thus parted asunder, and moved into something near their present form . . .” ¹⁵

Joseph Fielding Smith

#2: THE EARTH HAS UNDERGONE MANY CHANGES

It should also be remembered that this good earth has passed through a great many changes since the days of Eden. The Bible teaches us that in the beginning all the water was in one place. Therefore all the land must have been in one place. ¹⁷ Therewere notan Eastern and aWestern Hemisphereat the time of Adam. It is very strange, but nevertheless true, that some of the greatest events that have occurred on the face of the earth have been passed over in the Bible with the slightest mention; for example, in Genesis 10:25 , we read: And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one wasPeleg; for in his day was the earth divided.” This is a very brief statement of one of the greatest events that ever occurred on the face of this terrestrial globe, yet there is scientific evidence that this very thing happened. In the beginning the land surface was one vast continent; there came a time when it was divided, and other continents were formed and theWestern Hemisphere came into existence, but this was long after the time of Adam.

Speaking of this great event Dr. Immanuel Velikovisky, in his book, Earth in Upheaval, makes the following comment:

The theory of drifting continents, debated since the 1920’s has its starting point in the similarity of the shape of the coastlines ofBrazilandAfrica. This similarity (or better, complementation) plus some early fauna and floral affinities suggested to Professor Alfred Wegner of Cruz in the Tyrol that in the early geological age these two continents, South America and Africa, were one land mass. But since animal and vegetable affinities, could also be found in other parts of the world, Wegner conjectured that all continents and islands were once a single land mass that in various epochs divided and drifted apart. Those who do not subscribe to the theory of continental drift continue to explain the affinity of plants and animals by land bridges” or former land connections between continents and also between continents and islands. ¹⁸

#2: This, of course, has little to do with the Garden of Eden, but it does show that there have been great changes on the earth’s surface since the days of Adam. ¹⁹

#3: . . . the Eternal God hath declared that the great deep shall roll back into the north countries and that the land of Zion and the land of Jerusalem shall be joined together, as they were before they were divided in the days of Peleg.No wonder the mind starts at the sound of the last days! ²⁰

#4: THE JEWS ARE TO GATHER ATJERUSALEM

From this and other revelations in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants, we are informed that the Jews are to gather atJerusalem. On this, the American Continent, the converted Israelites and Gentiles are to gather with the Latter-Day Saints and the revelation states that those who come from among the Gentiles are to flee” untoZion. However, they are not to go out in haste,” that is to say, the Latter-day Saints are preparing the way. They are building the temples and the highways and performing the labors which are necessary for the tribes ofIsraelwhen their prophets shall speak to them and they shall receive their call to come toZion. We know very little about the lost tribes,” who they are or whence they will come. For our present needs, it is sufficient to rely on the word of the Lord concerning these tribes and of their coming, and the Lord has revealed the following:

And he shall utter his voice out ofZion, and he shall speak fromJerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;

And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided. ²¹

#5: We read in Genesis that in the beginning all of the land surface was in one place as it was in the days of Peleg, ²² that the earth was divided. Some Bible commentators have concluded that this division was one concerning the migrations of the inhabitants of the earth between them, but this is not the case. While this is but a very brief statement, yet it speaks of a most important event. The dividing of the earth was not an act of division by the inhabitants of the earth by tribes and peoples, but a breaking asunder of the continents, thus dividing the land surface and creating the Eastern Hemisphere and Western Hemisphere. By looking at a wall map of the world, you will discover how the land surface along the northern and southern coast of the American Hemisphere and Europe andAfricahas the appearance of having been together at one time. Of course, there have been many changes on the earth’s surface since the beginning. We are informed by revelation that the time will come when this condition will be changed and that the land surface of the earth will come back again as it was in the beginning and all be in one place. This is definitely stated in the Doctrine and Covenants in the following words:

When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.

For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion. ²³

TIME OF EARTH’S RENEWAL NOT KNOWN

Just when this great change shall come we do not know. If, however, the earth is to be restored as it was in the beginning, then all the land surface will again be in one place as it was before the days ofPeleg, when this great division was accomplished. Europe, Africa, and the islands of the sea includingAustralia,New Zealand, and other places in the Pacific must be brought back and joined together as they were in the beginning.

Before this great work will be accomplished, the prophecy in relation to the tribes ofIsraelas recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants must be fulfilled. Through the preaching of the gospel in all parts of the world, the preparatory work is being accomplished. The lost tribes” will be discovered and, as the revelation states, the lost sheep among the gentiles will flee toZionand the Jews toJerusalemas the Lord has decreed. The Redeemer will come to take his place as King of kings, and the great day of the millennial reign will be ushered in. ²⁴

When that day comes great changes shall take place upon the earth. We believe this is a day of restoration, and that the earth is to be renewed. ²⁵ In this renewal we are informed that the Lord shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north country, and the islands shall become one land; and the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.” ²⁶ The notion prevails quite generally that the dividing of the earth in the days ofPelegwas a division politically among the people, but from this word of the Lord we gain the idea that the earth itself was divided and that when Christ comes it will again be brought back to the same conditions physically as prevailed before this division took place. The sea is to be driven back into the north. The land is to be brought back as it was originally and the lands of Zion (America) andJerusalem (Palestine and all the land pertaining unto it) will be restored to their own place as they were in the beginning. The Savior will stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh. We have discovered in our study that the wicked, or all things that are corruptible ²⁷, will be consumed and therefore will not be permitted to be on the earth when this time comes. ²⁸

RESTORATION OF THE EARTH. Joseph Smith gave this inspired summary of latter-day events: There shall be famine, and pestilence, and earthquake in divers places; and the prophets have declared that the valleys should rise; that the mountains should be laid low; that a great earthquake should be, in which the sun should become black as sack-cloth of hair, and the moon turn into blood; yea, the Eternal God hath declared that the great deep shall roll back into the north countries and that the land of Zion and the land of Jerusalem shall be joined together, as they were before they were divided in the days ofPeleg. No wonder the mind starts at the sound of the last days!” ^29 30

CIVILIAZATION BEGAN INAMERICA. Contrary to popular belief the western hemisphere is where civilization began. The Lord revealed that Adam-ondi-Ahman, a place inDaviess County,Missouri, is where Adam dwelt after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden. The scriptures say that Adam journeyed to the East of Eden and at that portion of the garden from whence he was driven the Lord placed Cherubim to prevent Adam returning. The Garden of Eden, then, must have been on the western hemisphere. It stands to reason, this being true, that the antediluvians also dwelt on this western hemisphere before the division of the earth. Just what was the nature of the land surface of the earth when Noah built hisArkmay not be definitely known, but this we know—if we accept the scriptures—that in the beginning all the land surface of the earth was in one place. The dividing of the continents did not take place until after the flood, for it was in the days ofPelegwhen the earth was divided. Some have maintained that this division had reference to the parcelling out of the land surface among the tribes and peoples as they scattered forth over the earth. This interpretation, however, cannot be maintained in the light of what is written. The Lord has promised us that in these last days in the restoration of all things the land surface shall once again be brought back to the condition in which it was before it was divided. This will come at the time of the second advent of Jesus Christ, for he has said:

And he shall utter his voice out ofZion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people.

And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.— ^31 32

Here the Prophet tells us that the dividing of the earth was in the days of Peleg. When Christ comes, it will be brought back again as it was before it was divided. ³³

Harold B. Lee

Some time ago I met a woman in Connecticut, an investigator, who was introduced to me by the missionary who had been teaching her the gospel. I said to her, Tell me, what was it that first attracted you to this church?”

She thought for a moment and then said, Well, I will tell you, Brother Lee. I had been raised in a sectarian church, and when I started coming to this church, there was something about your missionaries that caught my attention. When they stood up to speak, their faces seemed to shine, and that is something I had never seen in the preachers of my church.”

Do you know what that shining was? It was the power of the Holy Ghost, which our teachers are privileged to receive if they will only keep the law that our Heavenly Father has laid down as a requisite for their preparation.

A missionary told how he was cornered by an atheist who ridiculed many of the teachings of the scriptures. The atheist confronted our missionary before the congregation, an untrained, unschooled young man whom we had dared to send out without his having gone to a theological seminary for training and indoctrination in all the teachings of the gospel. Think what a chance we take in sending our missionaries out, unprepared except for the power of the Holy Ghost.

The atheist said, Why, it is preposterous for you to say that you believe in a Bible that teaches about a creation when the land was together and the water was all together.” Then he read to the missionary from the Book of Genesis, and continued, Now look at the earth. Here it is divided into many parts and oceans between. How will you explain the inconsistency in this?”

Well, the missionary did not have the answer, but he bowed his head and silently prayed, Heavenly Father, give me your Spirit to tell me what to say.” Then he raised his tear-stained face, and up above the audience, at the back of the hall, he read these words: Genesis 10:25 . In the days ofPelegthe earth was divided.” Never in the world had he ever read this scripture. He did not know it was in the Bible, but he saw it there on the wall, and he was able to respond, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, to the atheist’s question. ³⁴

On 4/18/2018 at 2:44 PM, The Nehor said:

The downside is that if the scripture does mean Pangea is coming back then there will be a lot less beachside property on the New Earth. This is why I already called dibs on some oceanfront land. Better hurry up and do the same before it is all gone.

Just buy your beachfront on the west coast and you'll be fine... ;-)

On 4/18/2018 at 1:05 PM, Calm said:

"And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided."

As in possibly the people are given the land of their inheritance, they know who they are, their heritage, their place in God's Plan and all are of one nation as it was before competition, hate, pride split the family of man.

Or possibly everything gets moved somehow to the identical condition it was at a certain time in the past.

"Turned back into their own place"

Why this phrasing?  Why would one particular geological placement be seen as "their own place" as if the continents don't belong just as much where they are now as where they have ever been?  The crust must have always been moving if basic knowledge of how things work is accurate, why one formation would be preferred to another, not sure.

There is a sense that something must be rigid and unchanging in order to be perfect, that there is only one ideal, perfected condition for anything rather than change being perfect in its own way.

I find it difficult to believe God would have us give up the grandeur of the Alps or stunning ways of the Fjords and beauty of New Zealand and curious islands like Phuket, Thailand.  While beautiful in their own way, endless plains or even rolling hills need variety to achieve full appreciation.

Otoh, "their own place" sounds much like heritage to me...or even social relationship.

The two verses before this are instructive too.

22 And it shall be a voice as the ^avoice of many waters, and as the voice of a great ^bthunder, which shall ^cbreak down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the ^aislands shall become one land;

The returning of the continents at the 2nd Coming to their original state isn't going to be a gradual thing, it will be loud and swift and literal.  This isn't talking about heritage or social relationships.  Is it too hard to believe that God is capable of doing this as he says in the scriptures... 4000 some odd years ago, or reversed in the near future just like he says?

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Thus entire thread makes me chuckle - so many Mormons arguing for sprinkling instead of immersion.

What good Catholics we would make.

Maybe when the earth is baptized by fire and celestialized that will be local too, a local sea of glass.  And some of the earth will be left terrestrial and some telestial.  

Yeah, that's the ticket.  I think Australia can be the terrestrial kingdom, but where shall we put the telestial hell?  New Jersey?

Since Costner said Iowa was heaven, then I think New Jersey might be a little close for Telestial Hell.  

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think that's in any current materials although older materials unfortunately adopted the ideas from a Seventh Day Adventist creationist text - I think they even made it into the D&C Institute manual if I recall.

No, the current manuals teach this...   D&C  manual, old testament manual (multiple times),  bible dictionary, topical guide, all reference the division as a physical separation.   Then there are many prophetic statements sprinkled throughout curriculum as well,  including those by Joseph Smith.

 The argument that this is not a current correlated teaching doesn’t work.

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

...With the Noah story rather than just reject it as a myth you have Noah living in the Carolinas facing a giant hurricane taking Noah across the ocean. Slight errors of the sort you'd find in the New Testament.

My experience is that those who reject everything as myth tend to do so more out of political/cultural inclination. It's not due to fallibilism.

 

 

If you're referring to how people treat LDS teachings, you may want to acknowledge that the church teaches that there was no ocean near North Carolina at the time of Noah. It would have been butted up to N. Africa somewhere. The division of the continents didn't occur until a couple hundred years after Noah, per correlated teachings.

41 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Think about the genocide that would have accompanied such an event, and think about God inflicting that genocide on men, women, children, babes in arms etc. Is that the kind of God you believe in? Really?

Um, yes.  And he's explained himself quite well on the matter.    He didn't do it without weeping, or knowing the cost and consequences.   I don't think anyone thinks he's the kind of God you're making him out to be.  

Moses 7:

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

39 And that which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;

40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I'm a global floodist.  

I'm pretty sure President Nelson is, too.  

President Nelson believes in no-death before the fall, as well as being an anti-evolutionist.  I don't think he would have any issues with his Church's teaching of a global flood.

So while I don't know for sure if he's a global floodist, I do know for sure that right now he's a global tourist.  

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As I frequently tell the evangelicals, Let God be true. Don't hem Him in.  That does in no way discount the prophets, but makes way for them to have full effect.  We are our own worst enemies, constantly shooting ourselves in the foot.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  I understand your position, but think it a dangerous road.

6 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Once again, on the formal declaration of "mine authority, and the authority of my servants" in D&C 1.

Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these ^acommandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their ^blanguage, that they might come to ^cunderstanding.

25 And inasmuch as they ^aerred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought ^awisdom they might be ^binstructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be ^achastened, that they might ^brepent;

28 And inasmuch as they were ^ahumble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive ^bknowledge from time to time.

 

I notice that the passages have never been correlated out of the scriptures.

I also noticed that you didn't include the culminating statement following what you snipped.  Verse 38:

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

The Lord, though his spirit, speaks to his servants to establish his word.  If one thinks His word actually means something else, then I suppose that's a problem... for the individual thinking that.   It's comforting to know that the doctrines don't change via committees of intellectualism.  They tried that with the creeds of early Christendom.  Look where that led.

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I fully understand the theory and practice of Correlation, and I have known some of those doing it at Church HQ.  They do mean well, but their lack of sophistication does hamper their ability to get it "right," for the reasons which I have already stated.  That does not mean that there have not been improvements over the years in the training and quality of some of the scholars writing the manuals.  Yet committee projects have a way of reaching for the lowest common denominator, despite the best of intentions.  The same is true for other insular groups which want to keep the world at bay.  The fear is palpable.

This is a little too highbrow ark steadying for my taste.  I think there are better ways to err on the side of truth than discounting the prophets and the church's established curriculum.

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I realize that there are people who actually believe that opinions expressed in the manuals constitute official doctrine or canonical revelation.  There are also LDS folks who believe that mere assertion constitutes fact.  For the reasons I have already stated, that ain't necessarily so.  The Guide to Scripture, the Bible Dictionary, introductions, and many other helps and notes are often believed to be part of the Scriptural Canon.  They are not.

A great many people believe that the Great Deluge completely immersed the Earth, arguing that the total immersion is necessary for the baptism of the Earth, never realizing that the complete immersion is not necessary to baptism in such cases.  That Flood is even believed to prefigure baptism into Jesus (I Peter 3:18-21).  Yet Israel passing through the Red Sea dryshod is also a "baptism"  into Jesus (I Cor 10:1-2), even though they didn't get wet.  How can a "baptism" not get us wet?  When it is merely figurative or symbolic, that's how.  We need to carefully think these things through.

It might not be wise to read liturgical texts as narrative history.  We can readily see what that has done to modern evangelicalism.

Danger, Danger Will Robinson...

This is exactly why we have correlation, so that errors don't creep into the Church.  If one dismisses the correlated manuals, GC addresses, etc, as simply opinion, what is the purpose or value of such to an individual seeking truth?

It's really really important that we don't go teaching falsehoods based on our own interpretations and understanding.

This is why we have correlation:

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

I have sometimes wondered if the phrase "whole earth"  refers to the entire planet as we know it or if it only refers to the "whole earth" as they knew it back then; which would not include the entire planet.
Example 
"And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt. . . . For they covered the face of the whole earth, . . . and there remained not any green thing . . . through all the land of Egypt." (Exodus 10:14-15)
Here the phrase whole earth is equated only with the land of Egypt and not the entire planet earth. 

 

I think this is a great example of why we have the law of witnesses, multiple scriptures, correlation, etc., so that no private interpretation of the scriptures defines doctrines for the church. 

Having both the Book of Mormon, PoGP, and Bible say the same thing about every now existing continent being under water during the flood, it's yet further scriptural evidence of the truth as taught.

For example, in Ether 13:2 we read. after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;

And in Abraham 1:24, speaking of the other side of the world... When this woman discovered the land it was under water who afterward settled her sons in it, and thus, from Ham, sprang that race...

And from Genesis 7:4 ...yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Now the last one, Genesis, is really a direct answer to your post, as it's the Lord speaking...  Certainly the Lord's perspective is more than just what man alone can see, it one wants to go down the road of "Silly prophet, Tricks are for kids..."  ;-)

9 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Thank you! I know many LDS think the flood was local, is the global flood ever endorsed officially by a modern Prophet?

YW.  I don't think "many" is a majority, but there are some here on this site that do.  Here's a partial list of modern prophets and church publications that reiterate that the flood was global.

January 1998 Ensign

Still other people accept parts of the Flood story, acknowledging that there may have been a local, charismatic preacher, such as Noah, and a localized flood that covered only a specific area of the world, such as the region of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers or perhaps even the whole of Mesopotamia. Yet these people do not believe in a worldwide or global flood. Both of these groups—those who totally deny the historicity of Noah and the Flood and those who accept parts of the story—are persuaded in their disbelief by the way they interpret modern science. They rely upon geological considerations and theories that postulate it would be impossible for a flood to cover earth's highest mountains, that the geologic evidence (primarily in the fields of stratigraphy and sedimentation) does not indicate a worldwide flood occurred any time during the earth's existence. 

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world's arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God's prophets.

"There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only 'eight souls were saved'" - Gordon B. Hinckley, If We Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear, 175th Semi-Annual General Priesthood Meeting Link is here.

FROM THE LDS WEBSITE: "During Noah's time the earth was completely covered with water. This was the baptism of the earth and symbolized a cleansing (1 Pet. 3: 20-21)." Link is here.

Thus, modern revelation teaches that God indeed suffered great sorrow over the Flood, which served as the baptism of the earth.
—Joseph B. Romney, “Noah, The Great Preacher of Righteousness,” Ensign, Feb 1998

"In the days of Noah the Lord sent a universal flood which completely immersed the whole earth and destroyed all flesh except that preserved on the ark. (Gen. 6; 7; 8; 9; Moses 7:38-45; 8; Ether 13.2.) "Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood." (Teachings, p. 12) This flood was the baptism of the earth; before it occurred the land was all in one place, a condition that will again prevail during the millennial era. (D&C 133:23-24)". (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie, p. 289)

"The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Noah was taken to the Old World by the Flood. This teaching was given by Joseph Smith and is still accepted as true doctrine. Given this teaching, Mormons have to accept the flood as a global phenomenon." (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, "Adam-Ondi-Ahman" p. 19-20)

FLOOD WAS BAPTISM OF EARTH. Now a word as to the reason for the flood. It was the baptism of the earth, and that had to be by immersion. If the water did not cover the entire earth, then it was not baptized, for the baptism of the Lord is not pouring or sprinkling. (Smith, Joseph Fielding, Jr., Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: BookCraft, 1955), Vol.2, p.320)

THE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation. The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep or deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127].
—Encyclopedia of Mormonism, "Earth"

These people were so wicked that they were no longer allowed to pollute the earth by their presence on it or to bring innocent spirits into its decadent environment. The Lord decreed that all living things would be destroyed by flood, with the exception of a faithful few who would be spared so that God could begin anew his creative work and reestablish his covenant among men.
—Kent P. Jackson, “An Age of Contrasts: From Adam to Abraham,” Ensign, Feb 1986, 28

The worldwide flood of Noah's time has been accepted as a benchmark historical event by Jews and Christians for thousands of years...the worldwide flood of Noah's time, so upsetting to a restricted secular view, fits easily into place. It is the earth's baptism.
—F. Kent Nielsen, “The Gospel and the Scientific View: How Earth Came to Be,” Ensign, Sep 1980, 67

Is not today much like Noah's day when the population of the earth was wiped out in the flood and but eight righteous souls were spared? Some doubt that there was a flood, but by modern revelation we know that it did take place. By modern revelation we know that for more than a century, Noah pleaded with the people to repent, but in their willful stubbornness they would not listen.
—Mark E. Petersen, “Follow the Prophets,” Ensign, Nov 1981, 64

The Lord further indicated that all flesh was corrupt in those days, and so he brought forth the flood and destroyed all flesh except Noah and his family. Therefore, we are all descendants of righteous Noah. But the family concept is under very serious attack today all over the world. 
—Hartman Rector Jr., “Turning the Hearts,” Ensign, May 1981, 73

Two generations later the Lord was so pained by that generation “without affection” (Moses 7:33) that he opened the windows of heaven and cleansed the entire earth with water. Thus, the “everlasting decree” (Ether 2:10) was first taught that he who will not obey the Lord in righteousness will be swept from his sacred land. The lesson would be tragically retaught in dispensations yet to come.
—Jeffrey R. Holland, “A Promised Land,” Ensign, Jun 1976, 23

From the scriptures we can identify some of these chosen individuals, starting with Michael who was referred to as the Archangel, one of high rank in the spirit world. He was chosen to be Adam, the first man, to stand forever under the Father and the Son at the head of the human family. Others of the chosen were Seth, the most faithful of Adam's sons after the death of the righteous Abel, and Enoch, through whose lineage the Lord promised would come Noah and the Messiah, and that his posterity should remain while the earth should stand. Another one was Noah, who was chosen to be the second father of the human race here on earth, after the flood. Another was Shem, the chosen son of Noah; and also Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
—William H. Bennett, “Covenants and Blessings,” Ensign, Nov 1975, 45

The history of the peopling of the earth is really a history of the scattering of the descendants of Noah, who is sometimes referred to as the “second father of mankind.” This general scattering began soon after the Flood when the sons of Noah and their children began to spread forth “in their lands, … after their nations” (see Gen. 10:5, 20, 31)
—Lane Johnson, “Who and Where Are the Lamanites?,” Ensign, Dec 1975, 15

Some people talk very philosophically about tidal waves coming along. But the question is—How could you get a tidal wave out of the Pacific ocean, say, to cover the Sierra Nevadas? But the Bible does not tell us it was a tidal wave. It simply tells us that "all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered. Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered." That is, the earth was immersed. It was a period of baptism.
—John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 26:74-75.

Another great change happened nearly two thousand years after the earth was made. It was baptized by water. A great flow of water come, the great deep was broken up, the windows of heaven were opened from on high, and the waters prevailed upon the face of the earth, sweeping away all wickedness and transgression-a similitude of baptism for the remission of sins. God requires the children of men to be baptized. What for? For the remission of sins. So he required our globe to be baptized by a flow of waters, and all of its sins were washed away, not one sin remaining.
—Orson Pratt, (August 1, 1880) Journal of Discourses 21:323.

By and by we find the people departing from the principles of truth, from the laws of the Gospel, repudiating the fear of God, grieving his Holy Spirit and incurring his displeasure. Then a flood came and the inhabitants of the world, with the exception of a very few, were swept from it, after the Gospel had been preached to all who then lived and all had had an opportunity to believe in and obey it.
—John Taylor, "DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED BY THE FLOOD, etc.," Journal of Discourses 17:205.

This earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon.
—Brigham Young, (June 12, 1860) Journal of Discourses 8:83.

Many prophets from two different continents and different eras have identified Noah as a historical, not a mythical, character. These include Enoch (see Moses 7:42-43), Abraham (see Abr. 1:19-24), Amulek (see Alma 10:22), Moroni (see Ether 6:7), Matthew (see JS-M 1:41-42), Peter (see 2 Pet. 2:5), Joseph Smith (see D&C 84:14-15; D&C 133:54), and Joseph F. Smith (see D&C 138:9, 41). The Lord Jesus Christ himself spoke to the Nephites of the "waters of Noah" (3 Ne. 22:9). Recent latter-day prophets and apostles have similarly spoken of Noah. For example, Elder Howard W. Hunter, then of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, asked, "Because modernists now declare the story of the flood is unreasonable and impossible, should we disbelieve the account of Noah and the flood as related in the Old Testament?"

The Book of Ether mentions 'and that after the waters had receded from off the face of the land it became a choice land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof'. (see Ether 13:2).

Alma 10:22 Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword.

The Book of Abraham (Abr. 1:19-24) teaches the land of Egypt was discovered by the daughter in law of Noah after the flood, that Egypt was under water (implying it was the global flood) when she found it.

The most voluminous scriptural witness to Noah and the Flood is recorded in the writings of Moses, who dedicated a total of 57 verses in the King James Version to the account (Gen. 6:9-8:19). It is instructive to note that some of Noah's actual words are preserved in the Book of Moses, which introduces them with "And it came to pass that Noah continued his preaching unto the people, saying"-followed by his words: "Hearken, and give heed unto my words; Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you" (Moses 8:23-24). This text is significant in that it confirms that Noah, like his predecessors, understood the gospel covenant, including the baptismal ordinance and Jesus Christ's role as Savior.

Moses may have received his information about Noah through direct revelation, or perhaps he used ancient records that were written by one of the eyewitnesses to the Flood, such as Noah himself or one of his sons. Such records, presuming they once existed, are now lost to the world. In the book of Genesis, Moses clearly states that a flood occurred, and the terminology definitely refers to a worldwide flood, as opposed to a localized flood. The Joseph Smith Translation backs up the Genesis account, modifying the wording only slightly.

Said the Lord, "I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die" (Gen. 6:17; emphasis added in this and other scriptures in this article). The phrases "all flesh . from under heaven" and "every thing that is in the earth" indicate a worldwide destruction of all creatures that lived on land. Note that the Inspired Version, translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith, changes "in the earth" to "on the earth" (JST, Gen. 8:22).

Genesis 7:19-20 [Gen. 7:19-20] states, "All the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered . ; and the mountains were covered." These verses explicitly state that all of earth's high mountains ("hills" should read "mountains" here; Hebrew harim) were covered by the waters. Lest one believe that the statement "under the whole heaven" is figurative and can be read or interpreted in different ways, a scriptural search through the entire Old Testament reveals that the phrase is used elsewhere only in a universal sense, as it is here; the phrase does not refer to a geographically restricted area (see Deut. 2:25; Deut. 4:19; Job 28:24; Job 37:3; Dan. 9:12). For instance, Job 28:24 also uses the phrase when referring to God's omniscience, which is certainly not restricted to a specific geographical region on the earth.

Genesis 7:21 [Gen. 7:21] states, "All flesh died that moved upon the earth, . every creeping thing . every man." The phrase "all flesh" refers to all land animals, creeping things, and fowls and all of humanity, with the exception of those in the ark (see Gen. 7:23). The entry every in the Oxford American Dictionary reads: "each single one, without exception." Moses is clearly trying to let us understand that the Flood was universal.

Verse 22 [Gen. 7:22] states, "All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died." Again the term "all" expresses a sum total. The term "dry land" should be read literally here, having reference to the land masses of our planet.

Verse 23 [Gen. 7:23] states, "Every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl." Moses' list of those destroyed by the Flood is inclusive; only Noah "remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."

Genesis 8:5 [Gen. 8:5] states, "In the tenth month . were the tops of the mountains seen." After the flood, the "waters decreased" until Noah and his group were able to once again see mountaintops.

Verse 9 states, "The waters were on the face of the whole earth." The phrase "on the face of the whole earth" refers to a worldwide flood (see Gen. 1:29; Gen. 11:4, 8, 9).

Taken altogether, these statements should convince every believer in the Bible that the great deluge was a worldwide event, 4 not a localized flood that filled only the Mesopotamian or some other region.

[And then further down Parry states]

...4. Latter-day prophets teach that the Flood or the total immersion of the earth in water represents the earth's required baptism. Elder John A. Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: "Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling 'the measure of its creation.' They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water." He writes that the removal of earth's wicked inhabitants in the Flood represents that which occurs in our own baptism for the remission of sins.

13. Evidences and Reconciliations (1960), 127-28; see also Doctrines of Salvation, 2:320-21."

2014 - Still taught as literal: Ensign, February 2014

Topics section of LDS.org: As of 4/24/14, in the topical guide of the LDS.org website, there is a topic called Noah. The discussion confirms that Noah was real and it was a global flood:

Just as the earth was immersed in water, so we must be baptized by water and by the Spirit before we can enter the celestial kingdom.

Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and their wives were the only people on the whole earth saved from the flood.

Noah was the Angel Gabriel.

From link here.

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Whether written by Hugh Nibley, you, or some other assigned person (or group), these LDS Church manuals are intended to do the same job done by similar manuals in Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches.  In some cases, the manuals are written by scholars who have extensive training in Hebrew, Greek, theology, and history.  In other cases, they are heedless of the best and latest information -- perhaps even fearful of it.  It is very odd, for example, to find an LDS manual quoting at length from Clarke's Bible Commentary, which has no place in modern biblical study.  It is as if we have become contemptuous of Joseph Smith's effort to study Hebrew., while at the same time giving high respect to some absurd etiological folklore.  Mere opinion is confused with doctrine, and liturgical accounts are treated as actual historical narrative.  Category mistakes abound, and the consequences are real.  That is what we should worry about, not rep points.

If it was written by me or Hugh Nibley, I woudn't be objecting, as it wouldn't be doctrine.  But Hugh or I aren't the issue, doctrine is.  The Church manuals are correlated for a reason, very carefully, in fact.  They say the same thing that numerous prophets and scripture, modern as well as ancient have said, since the foundation of the Church.  The flood was global.  That is the position of the church.  

The Guide to the Scriptures is a good example of this.  Even its introduction states its purpose includes defining doctrines.  That's a good place to start.  Here's what it has to say about Noah's Flood:  "During Noah’s time the earth was completely covered with water. This was the baptism of the earth and symbolized a cleansing."

7 hours ago, snowflake said:

Interesting take on Gen 10:25, i had never noticed that line before thank you. 

It's the only way the LDS doctrine of the global flood works.  Without the LDS view of Peleg, the flood doesn't cover the earth, nor do the animals get to the different continents.  The high mountains and separated continents formed within 200 years after Noah.

The Institute and Seminary manual has some good insights, among others.  https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-133-the-lords-appendix-to-the-doctrine-and-covenants?lang=eng

Here's a snip:

D&C 133:23–24. Will the Continents Be Rejoined?

Genesis indicates that in the early history of the world the land masses were united. Moses recorded that one of the great-great-grandsons of Shem was named Peleg (a Hebrew word meaning division) because “in his days was the earth divided” (Genesis 10:25). Many scholars have passed this reference off as meaning some sort of cultural or political division, but modern prophets have taught that this statement should be taken literally.

An article published early in the history of the Church under the direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith stated: “The Eternal God hath declared that the great deep shall roll back into the north countries and that the land of Zion and the land of Jerusalem shall be joined together, as they were before they were divided in the days of Peleg. No wonder the mind starts at the sound of the last days!” (“The Last Days,” Evening and Morning Star, Feb. 1833, p. 1.)

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The "unless" is inescapable based solely on the tendency in Scripture (and in interpretations of Scripture) to employ hyperbole, as well as to ignore the full semantic range of words used in the original accounts.  Since ancient accounts are not made by professional historiographers, one must not measure them by the standards of such historiography. All this quite aside from the fact of Joseph being an ordinary, ignorant man like ourselves.

Yes we’re all ignorant and ordinary.  Nevertheless, the prophets and teachings of the church are clear on the matter, no matter how many rep points you may gather saying otherwise.  

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-4-11-the-patriarchs?lang=eng

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don’t believe we’re entitled to change doctrine and teachings to fit our accepted norms.  

57 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Adam-ondi-Ahman is ante-Diluvian.  Even if there were MSS from that period, they would presumably have been destroyed.  Unless the Flood was only local or regional, then it becomes a question of extent.

Masonic lore holds that Enoch made two records, one of stone and one of brass, to survive the foreseen deluge.

Also, the “unless” scenario shouldn’t be an issue if judged on equal ground.  If one believes Adam-ondi-Ahman and its historicity through the words of JS, wouldn’t one also be obliged to believe his teachings about a global flood?

2 hours ago, DJBrown said:

As far as LDS beliefs, look no further than the Book of Mormon.  It took time and very close examination of the text to refine our understanding of the geographic claims of the book.  The movement from a hemispheric model to a limited geographic model is the result of actually paying attention to the text and examining some fundamental assumptions.  

Are you trying to state that the church has adopted an official (or unofficial) limited geography model?

On 3/3/2018 at 3:02 PM, Calm said:

It is not just the current rate that is at issue, it is what will happen to the material being moved and deformed at higher speeds, such as greater melting.

What catalyst might have changed the rate without producing evidence of the change?  One would have to assume a fundamental change in the laws of  physics, chemistry, etc. that affected the geological earth in major ways, but had no effect on biological life without leaving traces of the anomaly

Greater melting due to higher speeds could certainly be indicative evidence of a rapid continental separation, but not necessarily required.  We just don't know how fast it happened, only that it happened during Peleg's lifetime.  That said, however, folded rock layers (with no breakage) along fault lines is an all too common occurance, and would need additional heat to stay malleable.  

The bottom line for me, however is not to place the arm of flesh above what the scriptures and the church teaches about both these events. 

Science doesn't accept a global flood, yet that is what the church teaches. 

Science doesn't accept a division of the continents post-flood, yet that is what the church teaches.

On 2/27/2018 at 10:45 AM, cinepro said:

This runs into the same problems as the "global flood" theory.  Sure, God could "govern and control these things" so that the continents drifted from Pangaea to their current position overnight if He wanted to.

 

Frankly, I find the global flood story much much easier to understand by accepting the Peleg divisions as taught.  fI the flood occurred prior to division, then the extreme high mountain ranges wouldn't need to be covered, neither would there be a big problem of animal dispersement after the flood.