Is Free Agency Proof Of Our Spirit?

[changed]

People talk about finding proof of God - but I would like to take it down one notch, and instead talk about proof of who we are - of the existence of the spirit. I think one thing leads to another, that we are created in the image of God, and that recognizing who we are and what we are made up of points towards who God is and what He is made up of.

In short, I think our free will is proof of the existence of our Spirit.

What is the difference between something that is alive, and something that isn't? a rock vs. a plant? The difference is the presence of a spirit. "That which acts, and that which is acted upon", rocks are unable to act in and of themselves - they can only react, all of their motions can be traced to outer causes. While some of what we do can be traced to outer causes, there is part of us that acts without coersion, that acts outside of the cause/effect net, or are self-caused.

The only way for an action to escape the cause/effect net that I can see, is if that object is eternal. Only an entity with no beginning - no original cause to trace it all back to - can be said to have true free will.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Am I interpreting this correctly, that our agency is a product of our uncreated nature - yes, God gave us more choices than we would otherwise have had, and can therefore be said to have given us agency too, but the core of it, at least to me, seems to stem from having no beginning - no outer cause. Sort of a robot vs. person kind of a thing - computers will never have true free will because everything they do can be traced back to their creation - to how they were programmed.... but for us, you can't trace it back to how we were created, because we were not ex-nihlo created.

Nature vs. Nurture - this sentimate tries to take away our free agency, but we are more than a product of nature and nurture. Nature - to say we are a product of our DNA is racist - racism is looked down on because we all realize that who we are has nothing to do with the color of our skin or our DNA. Nurture - while our surroundings can influence us, they also do not dictate who we are. I don't hold the same faith as my parents. I know many people who have risen above (or fallen below) who they were raised up to be. ... so if all of our actions (some of them can, but not all) if our actions cannot be traced back to nature/nurture, then what is left but to acknowledge a spirit? Call it conscience/intelligence/mind - call it what you will, but it clearly exists. We have free agency because it exists, we are made up of more than matter and energy.

Edited May 25, 2013 by changed

[Questing Beast]

Existence itself is proof of "God" in endless ways; what existence does not prove is any particular paradigm defining "God".

Free will is evidence for our "spirit" or immortal self. But it isn't proof....

[changed]

Free will is evidence for our "spirit" or immortal self. But it isn't proof....

If you can verify the existence of free will, I think it could be called proof. How else is free will possible? I think the nature of free will requires an eternal entity. Anything with a beginning has no free will because everything it does can be traced back to how it was created. Anything with no beginning (and sentience) has the potential for free will - uncreated/ no beginning - that's how you escape the cause/effect net.

[Robert F. Smith]

Questing Beast, on 25 May 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Free will is evidence for our "spirit" or immortal self. But it isn't proof....

If you can verify the existence of free will, I think it could be called proof. How else is free will possible? I think the nature of free will requires an eternal entity. Anything with a beginning has no free will because everything it does can be traced back to how it was created. Anything with no beginning (and sentience) has the potential for free will - uncreated/ no beginning - that's how you escape the cause/effect net.

Correct, but the Beast is so in love with the Uncaused and Prime Moving God of the Philosophers that he can't see that.

Thus, the OP is misconceived: One must first prove the existence of free will, and how is that possible?

[mfbukowski]

These are complex questions not easily handled since much of the history of philosophy has been dedicated to dealing with them.

In fact, determinism can be see as being compatible with free will.

So these issues are not as simple as what is being said here.

Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem. This philosophical problem concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed in terms of a compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

http://plato.stanfor.../compatibilism/

That being said, I don't think that agency has anything to do with having a spirit.

Any creature which is capable of movement and making a "choice" could be said to have "agency" to some degree even if that choice is programmed into it.

Do amoebas have spirits? Who knows- yet amoebas can "decide" to move in the direction of food or flee from pain sources. Is that "agency"? The problem becomes totally semantic.

What about a robot which is programmed to perform some sets of actions and "choose" between alternatives or which task to perform first? Would such a machine then have a spirit?

Edited May 26, 2013 by mfbukowski

[changed]

One must first prove the existence of free will, and how is that possible?

I agree, as with God, I don't think you can prove the existence of free will, it's something you have to recognize within yourself to believe. I think many atheists might be willing to admit it's existence though, and that a discussion of free will, and of the nature of the mind/conscience/intelligence/agency is a good point to start as an introduction of the spiritual.

Determinism can be see as being compatible with free will.

I believe that not only is determinism compatible with free will, but that it is necessary for free will. I define free will as "determining" one's own action - and it is therefore an act of determinism. (Something that just happens randomly without any cause is not free will - it's just random.... free will is not random or undetermined - quite the oppostie - free will is self-determined, self-caused - but it is most definately pre-determined....)

That being said, I don't think that agency has anything to do with having a spirit.

Any creature which is capable of movement and making a "choice" could be said to have "agency" to some degree even if that choice is programmed into it.

Do amoebas have spirits? Who knows- yet amoebas can "decide" to move in the direction of food or flee from pain sources. Is that "agency"? The problem becomes totally semantic.

What about a robot which is programmed to perform some sets of actions and "choose" between alternatives or which task to perform first? Would such a machine then have a spirit?

I believe that all living things have a spirit, that their spirit is what makes them alive. There is a difference between "act" vs "react". Most of what we and other life forms do can be classified as "react", but we do have the ability to act.

“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing; the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way” ~ Victor Frankl, concentration camp survivor.

Our ability to imagine, and create something new lies within the realm of "act" I think. ... Heavenly Father's ability to create is one of the ultimate acts of free will.

[Questing Beast]

If you can verify the existence of free will, I think it could be called proof. How else is free will possible?

Because "God" is the Source of free will. I exist. My existence is therefore inarguable. I may be like "God" to Bill Murray in "Groundhog Day", doing this mortality thing over and over again until I get "it" right, whatever "it" is. In fact I am like that. "I AM", that Is. We are all "I AM" manifesting as sovereign, free will possessing entities of endless variety. "God" does not mind read or control the separate manifestations we have been created to be.

I think the nature of free will requires an eternal entity.

Yes.

Anything with a beginning has no free will because everything it does can be traced back to how it was created. Anything with no beginning (and sentience) has the potential for free will - uncreated/ no beginning - that's how you escape the cause/effect net.

The scripture says that even the dust of the earth is more obedient than man because it does all the will of God when commanded. Can dust be sentient to "obey"? Or is Benjamin merely waxing rhetorical to make a point? I believe in "sentient" dust. That is why I can't agree with JS's cosmology, blaming "Abraham" for the idea that intelligences were never created, nor matter, because it has always existed, and GtF is merely "more intelligent than they all", i.e. he's one of us just the greatest of the uncreated intelligences. That's no god worthy of worship, imho. And such a being would not want to be worshiped if he shares my beliefs.

The way of escape from "cause and effect" (aka as "turtles all the way down") is to conceive of "God" as the only uncreated existence, with everything in the world of creation caused by that only Necessary Cause (my use of that term annoys Robert apparently). As "God" creates space-time to define the world of creation, it follows that "God" perceives all within the world of creation, "outside" of the world, as NOW, even though the created world goes on increasing infinitely. We can apprehend such a concept, but finite minds, no matter how immortal, cannot comprehend the reality, the totality, of the existence of Infinity, which is what God Is....

[Questing Beast]

I agree, as with God, I don't think you can prove the existence of free will, it's something you have to recognize within yourself to believe. I think many atheists might be willing to admit it's existence though, and that a discussion of free will, and of the nature of the mind/conscience/intelligence/agency is a good point to start as an introduction of the spiritual.

I believe that not only is determinism compatible with free will, but that it is necessary for free will. I define free will as "determining" one's own action - and it is therefore an act of determinism. (Something that just happens randomly without any cause is not free will - it's just random.... free will is not random or undetermined - quite the oppostie - free will is self-determined, self-caused - but it is most definately pre-determined....)

I believe that all living things have a spirit, that their spirit is what makes them alive. There is a difference between "act" vs "react". Most of what we and other life forms do can be classified as "react", but we do have the ability to act.

“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing; the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way” ~ Victor Frankl, concentration camp survivor.

Our ability to imagine, and create something new lies within the realm of "act" I think. ... Heavenly Father's ability to create is one of the ultimate acts of free will.

Our senses, even augmented infinitely by science, will never reach as far as the infinite scale of the created world extends. That is because the created world is infinitely small and huge. So yes, all matter/"dust'' is part of something sentient, even sapient. There are, for illustration purposes, within each cell of my physical body, whole universes of the created world spinning with countless billions of galaxies and populated worlds. Nothing in science as it stands would define a single cell of my body as something "sentient", even though each cell functions complexly and is alive. Sentience, even more-so sapience, is not detectable merely by function, or being alive. To take this even further, inanimate/dead "dust" is less likely to ever be termed "sentient" in any sense of the word. Yet my paradigm for "God" makes a single subatomic particle composing the most miniscule dust speck contain within itself entire universes of existence. Such is the nature of the "mind" of "God". There is no physical scale or definable concept for Existence In The First Place. Space-time is what defines the created world, and "God" is the author of the concept and its Existence, while being "Void" as well, i.e. the non existence of the created world....

Edited May 26, 2013 by Questing Beast

[changed]

all matter/"dust'' is part of something sentient, even sapient.

part of our dear mother earth, and yes, she is sentient and sapeint.

...And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof ...Moses 7:48