Mortal Man Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 Today in our broadcast stake conference we learned that the prophet predicts the stock market. Elder Erying related a story of a time when he was standing in the presence of the First Presidency and the prophet received a revelation that the stock market was about to crash. His counselors confirmed that they too had received this prompting and felt they should act on it. The prophet then instructed Elder Erying, who was then in charge of the church's financial investments, to sell stocks and move the church's holdings to traditionally conservative investments, which he did. Shortly thereafter, the stock market did indeed tank, but the church's investments were protected due to the prophet's diligence in heeding the promptings of the spirit. Elder Erying was subsequently visited by a chief financial officer of the church's investment firm who expressed wonder at the miraculous nature of the church's massive sell order and declared that the LDS church was the only client of his firm to see the crash coming. He asked Elder Eyring how he foresaw the event. Elder Erying reported that, of course, he could not tell him it was a revelation to the Lord's prophet. Elder Erying then bore his testimony to us that the Lord directs and protects the church's investments through His prophet. He then admonished us to follow the prophet and seek his counsel in all that we do. This left me with the following questions:1) Should the prophet pass along his stock market revelations to the general membership of the church?2) How can we follow the prophet if he keeps his prophecies secret?3) How can we seek out his financial counsel?4) Could the stock market prophecies be put on lds.org?
nicolasconnault Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 1) Should the prophet pass along his stock market revelations to the general membership of the church?2) How can we follow the prophet if he keeps his prophecies secret?3) How can we seek out his financial counsel?4) Could the stock market prophecies be put on lds.org?1) If the Lord tells him to do so, yes2) Does he keep them all secret?3) Do we need our financial counsel to come from the prophet? Are we not entitled to our own revelation for financial matters affecting our family?4) See 1)
Mortal Man Posted January 30, 2011 Author Posted January 30, 2011 2) Does he keep them all secret?I'm unaware of any talk or article in which this "sell now" prophecy was given to the general membership before disaster struck.3) Do we need our financial counsel to come from the prophet?The theme of the conference was to follow the living prophet, who is vastly more important than any dead prophet. Every speaker pounded this home; e.g., the Lord didn't instruct Adam to build an ark etc. I think this makes a lot of sense, since dead prophets can't pick good stocks.
thesometimesaint Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 All I want is tomorrows closing stock numbers, well before the closing bell.
TAO Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 Mortal Man, revelation is to be given as God sees fit. If God didn't see it fit here to distribute the information, that is good enough for me.
Mortal Man Posted January 30, 2011 Author Posted January 30, 2011 Mortal Man, revelation is to be given as God sees fit. If God didn't see it fit here to distribute the information, that is good enough for me.D&C 88:81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.It seems rather unbecoming of the prophet not to warn his neighbors when the Lord warns him about wild swings in the market. I think that a section of the Ensign devoted to stock market prophecies would go a long way toward silencing the critics who claim that the prophet doesn't receive revelations anymore. And that would enable us to follow the prophet more diligently, without all the guesswork.
keithb Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 Today in our broadcast stake conference we learned that the prophet predicts the stock market. Elder Erying related a story of a time when he was standing in the presence of the First Presidency and the prophet received a revelation that the stock market was about to crash. His counselors confirmed that they too had received this prompting and felt they should act on it. The prophet then instructed Elder Erying, who was then in charge of the church's financial investments, to sell stocks and move the church's holdings to traditionally conservative investments, which he did. Shortly thereafter, the stock market did indeed tank, but the church's investments were protected due to the prophet's diligence in heeding the promptings of the spirit. Elder Erying was subsequently visited by a chief financial officer of the church's investment firm who expressed wonder at the miraculous nature of the church's sell order and declared that the LDS church was the only client of his firm to see the crash coming. He expressed wonder at Elder Erying's massive sell order and asked, "How did you know this was coming?" Elder Erying said that, of course he could not tell him it was a revelation to the Lord's prophet. Elder Erying then bore his testimony to us that the Lord directs and protects the church's investments through His prophet. He then admonished us to follow the prophet and seek his counsel in all that we do. This left me with the following questions:1) Should the prophet pass along his stock market revelations to the general membership of the church?2) How can we follow the prophet if he keeps his prophecies secret?3) How can we seek out his financial counsel?4) Could the stock market prophecies be put on lds.org?Huh. It's strange how these stories always surface AFTER the calamity has occurred. Do we have any independent confirmation (perhaps in the form of internal memos or financial documents) that this stock transfer actually took place? I would be curious to see this evidence.
TAO Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 D&C 88:81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.It seems to me that it's rather unbecoming of the prophet not to warn his neighbors, once the Lord has warned him about the stock market.
keithb Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 D&C 88:81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.It seems to me that it's rather unbecoming of the prophet not to warn his neighbors, once the Lord has warned him about the stock market.Quote
TAO Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I like your quote by TSM. It's exactly the same thing I keep telling people when they ask me about the whole BY Adam-God thing. In any case, it's difficult to know what God thinks of them; I'll ask him next time he comes over for dinner.I seem to remember a quote by the FP saying the Adam-God Theory as it is understood today is incorrect. As understood today being the key exception words. Why? Don't you think that news of an impending natural or financial disaster might be of some use to the church membership?Doesn't matter. When God says you shouldn't do something, you don't do it. Also, if we had a mass withdrawal of stocks by that amount, it would actually effect the market - so even if God didn't give instructions as to whether to tell the church membership or not, it would probably not be a good idea, as it might cause the crash early.See, this is exactly what I tell all of my TBM cronies when they question my belief of the aliens Ron Hubbard wrote about. "You just have to have faith," I tell them.I seem to remember God saying that there are other planets with human-like creatures on them =P. Book of Abraham/Book of Moses/Bible, right?Also... Keithb, I do not appreciate it when you subtly mock my beliefs. Please stop it if you wish to have a conversation.
keithb Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I seem to remember a quote by the FP saying the Adam-God Theory as it is understood today is incorrect. As understood today being the key exception words. CFR. To me, I think the FP generally avoids talking about this subject. They probably wish that it would disappear entirely. Doesn't matter. When God says you shouldn't do something, you don't do it. Also, if we had a mass withdrawal of stocks by that amount, it would actually effect the market - so even if God didn't give instructions as to whether to tell the church membership or not, it would probably not be a good idea, as it might cause the crash early.I know. If God says don't do something, you'd better not do it, I agree. Maybe this is the same reason why the church just won't use the priesthood to cure the world AIDS epidemic: God told them not to, so they won't. However, it does kind of make me think about the type of God that is running our church: he has the opportunity to alleviate a lot of suffering but chooses not to do so. It makes me wonder how the next life is going to be if he acts like that now. Oh well, whatever God commands is right, and I trust God :|I seem to remember God saying that there are other planets with human-like creatures on them =P. Book of Abraham/Book of Moses/Bible, right?Yes, I hear that he has been having a horrible time with Kronos-J5. The whole planet is being sucked into a black hole, and things are just a mess. Also... Keithb, I do not appreciate it when you subtly mock my beliefs. Please stop it if you wish to have a conversation.Mocking? Me? Never!
TAO Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 CFR. To me, I think the FP generally avoids talking about this subject. They probably wish that it would disappear entirely.We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.I know. If God says don't do something, you'd better not do it, I agree. Maybe this is the same reason why the church just won't use the priesthood to cure the world AIDS epidemic: God told them not to, so they won't. However, it does kind of make me think about the type of God that is running our church: he has the opportunity to alleviate a lot of suffering but chooses not to do so. It makes me wonder how the next life is going to be if he acts like that now. Oh well, whatever God commands is right, and I trust God :|Do you not know why we suffer here on Earth, and it's need for a good purpose? There is a good purpose indeed.Yes, I hear that he has been having a horrible time with Kronos-J5. The whole planet is being sucked into a black hole, and things are just a mess.Nah, that's just you having trouble with it. I'm sure he understands it completely.Mocking? Me? Never! I wouldn't have guessed.
Brenda Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 1) If the Lord tells him to do so, yes2) Does he keep them all secret?3) Do we need our financial counsel to come from the prophet? Are we not entitled to our own revelation for financial matters affecting our family?4) See 1)I agree. The Prophet, as president of the Church, is the steward over the Church's finances. He received instructions to safeguard them and did so. We have a stewardship over our own finances, and are entitled to receive similar guidance. So the question is, are we tuned in and listening?
Mortal Man Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 The Prophet, as president of the Church, is the steward over the Church's finances.And those finances depend on tithes and offerings, which, in turn, depend on members' personal finances, including their successes and failures in the stock market.So the question is, are we tuned in and listening?We know that the Lord will never issue personal revelations contradicting the words of His prophet; e.g., if the prophet is selling then we shouldn't be buying. There is safety in following the prophet and heeding his counsel. If only we could find out what that counsel is.
nicolasconnault Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I have this growing feeling that there are big tests of faith coming up for the Church membership, and that most of them will involve trusting the prophets. When I see the cynicism, doubt and ridicule pouring out of many posters on this forum, I worry for them and many other members who think they know better. I wonder if they would be willing to consider whether their doubts and comments are inspired by the Holy Spirit or "some other spirit" (D&C 50).
Balzer Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 You guys are pulling my leg with this stuff right? The prophet predicts the stock market? Thats just awesome. Just a thought, but maybe what was meant to be observed was the stuff about always following your prohpet. This would be one heck of a lesson tool on that score! Btw, that quote from the Book of Mormon saying something about sharing info with neighbors, is that all neighbors? Cause I want in!Respectfully,Balzer
nicolasconnault Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 You guys are pulling my leg with this stuff right? The prophet predicts the stock market? Thats just awesome. Just a thought, but maybe what was meant to be observed was the stuff about always following your prohpet. This would be one heck of a lesson tool on that score! Btw, that quote from the Book of Mormon saying something about sharing info with neighbors, is that all neighbors? Cause I want in!Respectfully,BalzerYeah, thanks for demonstrating exactly why the prophet shouldn't be sharing this type of prophecy with everyone
Questing Beast Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I wouldn't seek investment advice from "the prophet". They have never offered any to the general membership of the Church. So I don't even believe this story is for real. And I won't check it because I don't care if Eyring said something of the sort or not. Joseph Smith nearly got lynched for making his financial predilections public; and the anti-trust bank of Kirtland went bust in 1837 during the general crash. He had not warned anyone that the crash was coming; but he did pull his money out before the crash, giving as his reason that the Saints were not entering into the investment business with the proper spirit; but rather with an intention to get personal gain. He did predict (or said later that he had) that the Kirtland bank would fail because of the spirit of speculation that had taken hold of the investors.But back then the prophet was more intimately associated with the members. Today the prophet would have to announce his financial advice via a "letter from the First Presidency" to be read in wards from the pulpit. What a change in sacrament meeting atmosphere that would create!...
Balzer Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Yeah, thanks for demonstrating exactly why the prophet shouldn't be sharing this type of prophecy with everyone Funny! Not very neighborly, but funny.On a slightly more serious note, why wouldn't the prophet be expected to share this information with everyone? Put another way, why would he want to keep it a secret? Respectfully,Balzer
nicolasconnault Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Funny! Not very neighborly, but funny.On a slightly more serious note, why wouldn't the prophet be expected to share this information with everyone? Put another way, why would he want to keep it a secret? Oh I included LDS members in "everyone", don't worry Why wouldn't the prophet share this with everyone? Why did Jesus tell some of the recipients of his miracles not to tell anyone? What happened when he fed the 5,000? The purpose of the Church is to bring souls unto Christ. The prophets share the same purpose. They are not there to make life easier for people by telling them how to make a buck. If the prophets started making public accurate prophecies about financial matters, on a consistent basis, what would happen to global economy? Have you thought of the ramifications? I don't want to go into a slippery slope fallacy here, but this kind of argument warrants a bit more thought, in my opinion, before jumping to conclusions such as "they did it for personal gain".
TAO Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Balzer, in the market, if somebody has an overall gain in ownership (factoring in inflation and all other factors), another must take a drop.If the prophet made public this revelation before it happened, it might as well cause the economy to tank on itself even worse. Economics is a mucky business like that, I guess.
LeSellers Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Balzer, in the market, if somebody has an overall gain in ownership (factoring in inflation and all other factors), another must take a drop.This is completely wrong. In the market, both parties must come out a head, or there will be no trade between them. It is true that one of them may lose money, but money is not the ultimate measure. That measure is the satisfaction derived from having a new position (owning something new, getting rid of something less desirable, etc.). If either of the parties actually saw himself a loser from the transaction, he would not trade at all. Lehi
nicolasconnault Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 This is completely wrong. In the market, both parties must come out a head, or there will be no trade between them. It is true that one of them may lose money, but money is not the ultimate measure. That measure is the satisfaction derived from having a new position (owning something new, getting rid of something less desirable, etc.). If either of the parties actually saw himself a loser from the transaction, he would not trade at all. Lehi, with your knowledge of economics, what would likely happen if the prophet began making accurate, regular predictions about the stock market, and made them public in time for people to act on them?
CA Steve Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Sometimes the financial advice has not been very good. "Now brethren, it is a good time to get property; now is the time for you to get rich."Joseph Smith Jr. just before the collapse of Kirtland's economy.
keithb Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I have this growing feeling that there are big tests of faith coming up for the Church membership, and that most of them will involve trusting the prophets. When I see the cynicism, doubt and ridicule pouring out of many posters on this forum, I worry for them and many other members who think they know better. I wonder if they would be willing to consider whether their doubts and comments are inspired by the Holy Spirit or "some other spirit" (D&C 50).I think that there is more of a debate going on in the church about the extent of a prophet's abilities to predict future events. Time and again, members are told that a prophet has a direct conduit from heaven and hears the voice of the Lord speak for the church on matters large and small. However, it seems that, whenever this ability is put to the test, the prophetic abilities of the FP seem to only show up after the fact -- very similar to the prophetic abilities of Nostradamus. So, I guess one has to wonder, as Mortal Man pointed out, whether some of these prophecies should have been released ahead of time. Specifically, I would have been impressed if ETB had predicted the 2008 stock market collapse. TBM "prediciting" it and the church only finding out a couple of years after the fact (with no independent evidence to corroborate the existence of the prophecy in 2008) -- not so much.
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