Gervin Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 Another ad hominem by Bowman. He has no counter argument so all he has left is personal attacks.He is upset because he lost.As someone who is simply interested in reading the back and forth exchange - and trying to learn something - the bulk of your "contributions" to this thread consist of personal attacks, SHOUTING, and a black/white viewpoint of creating winners and losers. While I'm not surprised that the moderators don't take you down a notch I don't see much support of your methods from other posters on this board. You obviously have some personal hangup over Mr. Bowman's positions. That you are unable to engage him in a meaningful dialogue reflects poorly on any position you might have.If I'm off base in my assessment of your posts then I hope your supporters will correct me. /G
RickChown Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 If it is by baptism that our sins are remitted, and it is baptism that "doth now also save us", how can anyone hold to the apostate idea that baptism is not required for salvation? Zwingli, like most Evangelical Christians, was absolutely wrong: the Bible evidences this most powerfully. Lehi Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the wordWhom God hath set forth a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Rom 3:25)Here we have a few verses that do not teach baptism is essential for the remission of sins The Acts quote is Peter speaking again, but this time he is teaching that Believe in Christ and receive remission of Sins.. No Baptism. and without being baptized they received the Holy Ghost In John, Jesus Himself teaches that it is belief in Him that saves us to eternal life. Not baptism.That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal lifeFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Not quite an APOSTATE idea is it? You act like it just got made up out of thin air!
Vance Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 As someone who is simply interested in reading the back and forth exchange - and trying to learn something - the bulk of your "contributions" to this thread consist of personal attacks, SHOUTING, and a black/white viewpoint of creating winners and losers. While I'm not surprised that the moderators don't take you down a notch I don't see much support of your methods from other posters on this board. You obviously have some personal hangup over Mr. Bowman's positions. That you are unable to engage him in a meaningful dialogue reflects poorly on any position you might have.If I'm off base in my assessment of your posts then I hope your supporters will correct me. /GSo you have no counter argument either. I get it.
ElfLord Posted December 30, 2010 Posted December 30, 2010 Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word"SHALL receive" is future tense. Which actually happened in verse 4848 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.Not quite an APOSTATE idea is it?Demons believe too (James 2:19) yet why aren't they saved?
Rob Bowman Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 ElfLord,You wrote:"SHALL receive" is future tense. Which actually happened in verse 4848 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.Sorry, no. They had already received remission of sins, as witnessed by the fact that they had already received the gift of the Holy Spirit (verses 44-47).You wrote:Demons believe too (James 2:19) yet why aren't they saved?Because the word "believe" in that context denotes mere intellectual recognition that God exists. No evangelical thinks that believing that God exists will save anyone. The evangelical position is that through believing in Christ (not merely believing that God exists, or even believing that Christ exists) a person is made right with God. What evangelicals mean by this is trusting in Christ as Savior, not merely thinking in one's brain that Christ is the Savior.
ElfLord Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 ElfLord,You wrote:Sorry, no. They had already received remission of sins, as witnessed by the fact that they had already received the gift of the Holy Spirit (verses 44-47).You wrote:Because the word "believe" in that context denotes mere intellectual recognition that God exists. No evangelical thinks that believing that God exists will save anyone. The evangelical position is that through believing in Christ (not merely believing that God exists, or even believing that Christ exists) a person is made right with God. What evangelicals mean by this is trusting in Christ as Savior, not merely thinking in one's brain that Christ is the Savior.Equivocation Rob.King Saul received the Holy Ghost on many ocassions, even Prophecied in the Name of the Lord. Yet his sins were not remmited.
RickChown Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 "SHALL receive" is future tense. Which actually happened in verse 4848 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.Demons believe too (James 2:19) yet why aren't they saved?They believe THERE IS ONE GOD Don't you?
RickChown Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Equivocation Rob.King Saul received the Holy Ghost on many ocassions, even Prophecied in the Name of the Lord. Yet his sins were not remmited.CFR?
Rob Bowman Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 ElfLord,You wrote:Equivocation Rob. King Saul received the Holy Ghost on many ocassions, even Prophecied in the Name of the Lord. Yet his sins were not remmited.Diversionary tactic, ElfLord. Peter stated explicitly in recounting what happened with Cornelius and his family that they were "baptized with the Holy Spirit," that God had given them the same gift that he had given to the apostles "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ," and that God "testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 11:16-17; 15:8-9). Saul's experience of the Spirit was simply not in the same category.
Vance Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 They believe THERE IS ONE GOD Don't you?We are like Paul!1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Thanks for asking.
Vance Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 ElfLord,You wrote:Diversionary tactic, ElfLord. Peter stated explicitly in recounting what happened with Cornelius and his family that they were "baptized with the Holy Spirit," that God had given them the same gift that he had given to the apostles "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ," and that God "testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 11:16-17; 15:8-9). Saul's experience of the Spirit was simply not in the same category.Diversionary tactic, Bowman. You are ASSUMING that having the Holy Ghost means that their sins are remitted.More ASSUMING going on.
RickChown Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 We are like Paul!1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Thanks for asking.Non answer Let me make this clear Do you believe in the existence of more than one God who is deity on or about the level with God the Father? Sorry I had to make this so long, but getting a straight answer here is not always easy. Please answer with yes or no.
RickChown Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Diversionary tactic, Bowman. You are ASSUMING that having the Holy Ghost means that their sins are remitted.More ASSUMING going on.Saul was not given the gift of the Holy Ghost The Spirit of God came upon him strongly and suddenly. Not so as to rest and abide with him. That is the way God often worked in the OT Since Jesus had not yet been crucified, the gift of the Holy Ghost had not yet been given .
Nathair/|\ Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Saul was not given the gift of the Holy Ghost The Spirit of God came upon him strongly and suddenly. Not so as to rest and abide with him. That is the way God often worked in the OT Since Jesus had not yet been crucified, the gift of the Holy Ghost had not yet been given .CFR
RickChown Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 CFRJhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) The Holy Ghost is not even mentioned in the OT KJV
Vance Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Non answer Let me make this clear Do you believe in the existence of more than one God who is deity on or about the level with God the Father? Sorry I had to make this so long, but getting a straight answer here is not always easy. Please answer with yes or no.I believe these verses. Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,) Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. John 1:1c clearly attributes divinity or godhood to "the word" or Jesus Christ. Emphatic Diaglott1864, NEW YORK, LONDON (by Benjamin Wilson)Rendering: "...and a god was the Word"The Bible - An American Translation1935, CHICAGO (by J.M.P. Smith and E.J. Goodspeed)Rendering: "...and the Word was divine"New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures1950, BROOKLYN (by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.)Rendering: "...and the Word was a god"Das Evangelium nach Johannes1975, GOTTINGEN (GERMANY) (by Sigfried Schulz)"...und ein Gott (oder, Gott von Art) war das Wort"Rendering: "...and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word"Das Evangelium nach Johannes1978, BERLIN (GERMANY)(by Johannes Schneider)"...und goettlichen Wesens war das Wort"Rendering: "...and god-like sort was the Word"Das Evangelium nach Johannes1979, WURZBURG (GERMANY) (by Johannes Schneider)"...und ein Gott war das Wort"Rendering: "...and a god was the Word" John 1:1b clearly separates "the word" from "the God"."kai ho logos en pros ton theon"And the word was toward the god"Therefore John 1:1 clearly describes two separate divine beings or Gods.
RickChown Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 LOL Are you going to answer my question? And NO you haven't answered it yet. Yes or No? Simple question . Simple Answer
RickChown Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the wordWhom God hath set forth a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Rom 3:25)Here we have a few verses that do not teach baptism is essential for the remission of sins The Acts quote is Peter speaking again, but this time he is teaching that Believe in Christ and receive remission of Sins.. No Baptism. and without being baptized they received the Holy Ghost In John, Jesus Himself teaches that it is belief in Him that saves us to eternal life. Not baptism.That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal lifeFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.No one has yet offered a rebuttal to these verses which do NOT teach one must be baptized to receive eternal life.
ElfLord Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Saul was not given the gift of the Holy GhostThe Spirit of God came upon him strongly and suddenly. Not so as to rest and abide with him. That is the way God often worked in the OTSince Jesus had not yet been crucified, the gift of the Holy Ghost had not yet been given .CFRJhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)The Holy Ghost is not even mentioned in the OT KJVNot according to Peter.2 Peter 1:21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.According to him the Spirit of the OT is the Holy Ghost.And I'm not sure how Saul was "turned into another man" without receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost and being Born Again.1 Sam 106 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
Zakuska Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 They believe THERE IS ONE GOD Don't you?Not according to Jesus.John 1034 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Or perhaps your scriptures are broken?
Vance Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 No one has yet offered a rebuttal to these verses which do NOT teach one must be baptized to receive eternal life.No need to rebutt. You haven't supported your position. Showing that other things are required for remission of sin doesn't of necessity eliminate baptism as also being a requirement.There are 10 incidents of "remission" in the KJV. They are,Matt. 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb. 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Can you show me where it says baptism isn't required?
evangelist Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 We'll leave the BOM out if you agree to leave the New Testament out. How does that sound?How about a beter agreement, to leave the Old testament out with the BOOK of Mormon, and just stick with the new testament??one love
bluebell Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 How about a beter agreement, to leave the Old testament out with the BOOK of Mormon, and just stick with the new testament??one loveIf you were having a conversation with a Jewish person, and they went off on how needless the New Testament was and said they would only discuss religion with you if you agreed to completely ignore the New Testament, would that be alright with you? Would you agree to those terms? Could you explain our faith completely without using the New Testament?
evangelist Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 88. Water baptism is like the ring in a wedding. We use the term
Nathair/|\ Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 88. Water baptism is like the ring in a wedding. We use the term
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