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JS DID practice polygamy


Scottie

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Just a thought.

Why would one want to leave the church for this sole reason?

I'd say that all church histories have something in them.

Moses was a murderer. and yet, we still abide by the commandments.

the prophets and the apostles as well as the women who were used in the Kingdom of God were not all perfectly moral people.

Not to mention David the adulturer. Lot the incestious Grandpa. Abraham and Isaac the blackmailers. The list goes on...

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Just a thought.

Why would one want to leave the church for this sole reason?

I'd say that all church histories have something in them.

Moses was a murderer. and yet, we still abide by the commandments.

the prophets and the apostles as well as the women who were used in the Kingdom of God were not all perfectly moral people.

Not to mention David the adulturer. Lot the incestious Grandpa. Abraham and Isaac the blackmailers. The list goes on...

And the list goes on and on and on...

Rahab...wasn't she a harlot...and had to be in the lineage of Jesus?

Keep your faith whoever started this thread and get over some things...

i doubt this person will ever find happiness or the source needed if the focus is on a "minor" detail. people did things for many reasons and we don't have the "whole story" of any practice...only what is told and passed down from the mouths of men.

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My apology if you think I was calling you chicken.  I was talking about order of events and causation:  Chickens lay eggs.

....

As to your sensibility being prissified . . . I was a bit overboard there as well.  Sorry.

Yes, it seemed as though you were calling me a chicken there.

Misunderstanding acknowledged and apology accepted.

Just a thought.

Why would one want to leave the church for this sole reason?

I'd say that all church histories have something in them.

Moses was a murderer. and yet, we still abide by the commandments.

the prophets and the apostles as well as the women who were used in the Kingdom of God were not all perfectly moral people.

I said before that I didn't leave for this SOLE reason. It is a big one. Nobody can give me an acceptable reason for polygamy. I've already posted why I think it is such a big deal to me.

So, does that mean I could claim that I got revelation from God that women should have sex with me...there is precidence in the Bible for it, so it is perfectly valid for ME to do it. I'm sure you would all have no problem with this, huh?

You know what disturbs me more than JS illicit affairs? That none of you think it is a big deal. It is HUGE!! If you were to HONESTLY look at it from an outsiders point of view, you would HAVE to be appaled at it. The threats, the secrecy and the mandate that he HAD to do it or God would destroy him. If any other religious leader made this claim, you guys would be all over him.

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Hmmm... A man takes his son camping and almost kills him because God made him do it.  The authorites would have that kid out of that house faster then you can say "lemony splickets!"

:P

edited by moderator: Do not compare any religion or person to a criminal if you want to stay on this message board.

I hate that argument that it has been done before, therefore it is ok that JS did it.

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I am an "outsider"...looking in and I am able to accept some things in the LDS church, even though they wouldn't appeal to me. The issue here is, that the church is made up of people. The people make mistakes and do stupid things...What is it like overall?

Overall, is the LDS a place you want to live with?

Has the churh been good to you?

beter yet, have you been blessed in the LDS church?

Is your God everything you imagined or can imagine Him to be for you?

I don't think scottie is just looking for a church that gives benefits. Just about any church can bear good fruit. He's searching for the truth.

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I am an "outsider"...looking in and I am able to accept some things in the LDS church, even though they wouldn't appeal to me.  The issue here is, that the church is made up of people.  The people make mistakes and do stupid things...What is it like overall?

Overall, is the LDS a place you want to live with?

Parts of it yes, parts of it no.

Has the churh been good to you?

At times yes, at times no.

beter yet, have you been blessed in the LDS church?

At times yes, at times no.

Is your God everything you imagined or can imagine Him to be for you?

I'm not sure how to answer this question...

If you answered yes to the above...then poligamy is no big deal...because our ways are not as God's ways.

What if mormonism is really a FALSE religion and I am in danger of losing my eternal soul because I belong to the wrong church? What if I needed to find out that JS was a polygamist because it led me to the REAL One True Church on the Earth?

Isn't that what the LDS church teaches everyone else?

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I hate that argument that it has been done before, therefore it is ok that JS did it.

Was that my Argument?

I thought it was...perhaps I misunderstood...

The difference between the Lafertys and JS. Other people saw the Angels too.

Did anyone else hear the voice of God procaliming JS should start polygamy? I didn't think so.

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The difference between the Lafertys and JS. Other people saw the Angels too.

Did anyone else hear the voice of God procaliming JS should start polygamy? I didn't think so.

Actually, quite a few people saw angels in this context, my own paternal Great-Grandparents included among them.

Sorry. Bad argument if you know your history.

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It is interesting to note that Joseph, however, was not the only one who felt that it was the commandment of the Lord to practice polygamy. This is from "Mormon Enigma", p. 99:

"Emma's friend Vilate Kimball came about her knowledge of plural marriage in a different manner. Hber Kimball had honored Joseph's charge to keep the doctrine from his wife but appeared troubled. Helen said her mother began praying to know what was causing so much anxiety in Heber. The plan of celestial marriage was made known to her "in a vision"; she told him she knew about his dilemma and that he should obey. "

So not only did Vilate learn about polygamy through revelation, but she believed that it needed to be obeyed.

She's not the only one either: Most who those who left accounts of being commanded to practice polygamy (men and women), after fasting and praying, reported "a compelling personal experience, that brought them to accept plural marriage as a true principle." (that quote is also p. 99 of the same book)

So Joseph was not the only one who felt spiritually convinced that the secret polygamy he had ordered was of God.

(edited for spelling)

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Scottie, You are so far off base when you analyze my motives. (I know you didn't not address me specifically, but you addressed us generally.) You said we all know that Joseph Smith had illicit affairs and it doesn't bother us. You have made a mistaken assumption. I would be upset, although I wouldn't leave the Church, because everyone's repentance is up to the Lord. I have a testimony that Joseph is a prophet, that he restored the Church, and that he died approved of the Lord. What else is in between is up to him and God.

However, I think you have made a mistake. I do not believe he had illicit affairs. You do not know that he did. Your information is based on apostate and enemy accusations, and a very incomplete historical record. When you couldn't reconcile the two, you threw up your hands and gave up and believed the lies by default.

Furthermore, by what you have said, first by saying it was questions about polygamy that has caused you to falter, and then by later posting that there were lots of questions that were coming up contemporaneously, you have shown that you are in the position of someone who has decided on a course of action and then are bolstering your decision. It is my analysis of your behavior, based on your own stated words, that none of the questions you had would be enough to justify leaving the Church. But if you can work up a big enough indignation over the matter of polygamy, you can convince yourself and make your decision sound more reasonble to those you will be explaining it to. For instance, and I am not saying this is your particular situation, a person would not be given much credibility if they said they were leaving the Church because they just could not abide the law of tithing. They would just seem greedy and selfish. But if it was polygamy! That is something different.

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If the church is true, shouldn't we be encouraged to learn the anti-mormon beliefs and counter discussions?

I got a laugh out of that one Scottie.

How effective has learning the "anti-mormon beliefs" and counter discussions been for you or anyone else on this board?

Conversion is based on a spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's NOT based on some back and forth conversation like we're having here about events that occured almost 200 years ago. That is not a testimony. It is not compelling either way (as you should be able to determine by the varying viewpoints you read here - including your own).

A testimony based on historical hearsay will not get you through. Apostasy based on historical hearsay is equally foolish.

So you say JS was a womanizer/con artist. How did he conjure up the Book of Mormon, etc.? You must have a some sort of theory to explain it all away. What is it?

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However, I think you have made a mistake. I do not believe he had illicit affairs. You do not know that he did.

You're right, I don't know that he did. What I DO know is that every other man that practiced polygamy had sex with the extra wives. Why would JS NOT have sex when everyone else did?

I also know that D&C 132 said polygamy had the purpose of raising a righteous generation. If this is the purpose, why would he not try to have children?

As far as I can see, all evidence leads me to believe that he did.

Furthermore, by what you have said, first by saying it was questions about polygamy that has caused you to falter, and then by later posting that there were lots of questions that were coming up contemporaneously, you have shown that you are in the position of someone who has decided on a course of action and then are bolstering your decision.

Polygamy was a big thing, but in a vacuum, I don't think it would have caused me to leave.

That is standard apologist [deleted]. Basically you are saying that the ONLY reason one could have for leaving the church is that they were unhappy and they were looking for a way out. That couldn't be further from the truth. I stumbled upon this information and it tore me up inside. My entire spiritual world had just been ripped out by their roots. It was a painful journey, but I know that I can't go back knowing what I now know.

It is my analysis of your behavior, based on your own stated words, that none of the questions you had would be enough to justify leaving the Church. But if you can work up a big enough indignation over the matter of polygamy, you can convince yourself and make your decision sound more reasonble to those you will be explaining it to.
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It is on you to prove it true, which apologists have failed to do. I have no idea how he did it. I have ALWAYS maintained that JS was a genious.

The Book of Mormon will not be "proven" true in this lifetime, IMHO. Has the Bible been proven true? Even if you could prove that the people in the Book of Mormon were historical figures you'd still find many not willing to accept the teachings of Joseph Smith.

Could I write the BoM? Absolutely not. Could SOMEONE write the BoM, absolutely.

Wow. You have a iron-clad testimony that someone/somehow in 1830 could have written the Book of Mormon from scratch? Have you really looked into how implausible that is?

Anyway, I feel bad that things have turned out so poorly for you regarding your testimony and the church. You say there's no going back based on "what you know." I hope you will have an open mind and will consider that there are other possibilities from what you've concluded.

Good luck to you in your journey...

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However, I think you have made a mistake. I do not believe he had illicit affairs. You do not know that he did.

You're right, I don't know that he did. What I DO know is that every other man that practiced polygamy had sex with the extra wives. Why would JS NOT have sex when everyone else did?

I also know that D&C 132 said polygamy had the purpose of raising a righteous generation. If this is the purpose, why would he not try to have children?

As far as I can see, all evidence leads me to believe that he did.

And why did they feel the need to canonize D&C 101:4 in 1835 denying that polygamy was being practiced?

If all that JS was doing was as innocent as "sealing" then why was Emma so angered by it all?

Further, why did the Lord have to THREATEN EMMA WITH DEATH(D&C 132) to get her to allow JS to have more fun little sweet and innocent sealings?

Nice try apologists. JS had sex with these women. Granted, not all of them, but many of them.

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Scottie, you condemn yourself out of your own mouth. No documentation and you read beween the lines. This is the way to "convict" a person of a heinous crime?

I am sorry you seem to be taking the path you are. If you were a member of the Church in the last dispensation, you were one of the great ones. When you leave, the loss of a great one is a terrible sadness. If you take others with you, or by your leaving others who would have been valiant in the truth do not, then the sadness is multiplied. I cannot be angry at the way you are twisting the truth. I am only be very, very sad.

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Scottie, You are so far off base when you analyze my motives. (I know you didn't not address me specifically, but you addressed us generally.) You said we all know that Joseph Smith had illicit affairs and it doesn't bother us. You have made a mistaken assumption. I would be upset, although I wouldn't leave the Church, because everyone's repentance is up to the Lord. I have a testimony that Joseph is a prophet, that he restored the Church, and that he died approved of the Lord. What else is in between is up to him and God.

However, I think you have made a mistake. I do not believe he had illicit affairs. You do not know that he did. Your information is based on apostate and enemy accusations, and a very incomplete historical record. When you couldn't reconcile the two, you threw up your hands and gave up and believed the lies by default.

Furthermore, by what you have said, first by saying it was questions about polygamy that has caused you to falter, and then by later posting that there were lots of questions that were coming up contemporaneously, you have shown that you are in the position of someone who has decided on a course of action and then are bolstering your decision. It is my analysis of your behavior, based on your own stated words, that none of the questions you had would be enough to justify leaving the Church. But if you can work up a big enough indignation over the matter of polygamy, you can convince yourself and make your decision sound more reasonble to those you will be explaining it to. For instance, and I am not saying this is your particular situation, a person would not be given much credibility if they said they were leaving the Church because they just could not abide the law of tithing. They would just seem greedy and selfish. But if it was polygamy! That is something different.

I have to ask...

Is any fact that could be right, even in the eyes of the believers, only brought up by "antis", the enemy, or the apostate???.

good words=believers or non-antis

bad words=antis, apostate, enemy

?????????????????????

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Alpha, I think (but I am not sure) that you are asking if a "fact" is brought up that maybe shows Joseph Smith in a bad light, that means the person bringing up the "fact" has to be considered anti-.

You have probably seen by now, that there is nothing new that has been brought up here on the board. Everything has been published, circulated, discussed, etc. So when someone starts a thread with indignation, pretended ignorance, etc. I generally tend to think they are leaning toward the anti- side and not being honest about it.

Was that what you asked?

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The Book of Mormon will not be "proven" true in this lifetime, IMHO. Has the Bible been proven true? Even if you could prove that the people in the Book of Mormon were historical figures you'd still find many not willing to accept the teachings of Joseph Smith.

Nor in any other lifetime, IMHO...

Could I write the BoM? Absolutely not. Could SOMEONE write the BoM, absolutely.

Wow. You have a iron-clad testimony that someone/somehow in 1830 could have written the Book of Mormon from scratch? Have you really looked into how implausible that is?

No, I really don't know how implausible that is. Enlighten me.

To me, it is more plausible than the current story, however.

Maybe he plagerized most of it. Maybe he and Martin Harris were in on it together and with their collaboration wrote it. I don't know.

Anyway, I feel bad that things have turned out so poorly for you regarding your testimony and the church. You say there's no going back based on "what you know." I hope you will have an open mind and will consider that there are other possibilities from what you've concluded.

You're right...I broke my own rules. I don't "know" anything, and to say there is absolutely no going back...well, I never say never. I still have an open mind and I am still researching. I still find new evidences.

For example, pneal's account about how Vilate Kimball got her testimony of polygamy...I had never heard that before. That is something I will need to research and add into the quagmire.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you really want the truth?

Of course.

If yes, then you will find it, but not by having discussions on a board...Making claims and trying to defend your position will only make you upset and it only justifies your questions in the first place...

No, but it gives me a lot of other opinions and educates me on points that I may have misinterpreted.

When one wants to find truth. The best way I believe is to seek God for yourself.

We had a couple of big threads about this a couple of weeks ago. I have SERIOUSLY tried to find the truth by asking God. I have never received what I believe to be an answer.

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So, why hide the fact that JS did? If they are going to teach the history of the church, then teach the WHOLE history. Doesn't it bother you that they pick and choose?

History is inherently reductionist. It's part of the territory.

Also, I don't believe "The Church" is concealing anything, but remember that "The Church" is out to teach the gospel, not sppon feed details of Church history to members. Polygamy does get talked about in the Institute Hurch History manual, and there are mentions of it in the Ensign, but anyoen who expects to see some 15 page spread devoted to it is not clear on what the Church's goals are...

I heard a talk recently in which Elder Holland mentioned polygamy AND mountain meadows, so I would humbly suggest that most Mormons don't read anything but Deseret Book and maybe the Ensign...with teh result that they really don't know much except Gospel basics.

:P

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