Southerton Answers FARMS & FAIR

[Daniel Peterson]

A Message board haiku

Sarcastic rejoinder.

Snide dig.

Appeal to authority.

Evasive reponse.

Sly innuendo.

Regards,

A message board limerick:

There once was a guy called Praetorian

Neither scholar, nor sage, nor scriptorian.

He had nothing of substance

But could not maintain silence,

Thinking cuteness trumps work by historians.

[dacook]

I have always (before FARMS and FAIR) thought that the way their skin color was changed was by intermarrying with the natives.

[Confidential Informant]

Just a few off-the-cuff thoughts on Southerton's response (written when I should be working):

In fact, about 7,300 American Indians have been DNA tested in scientific experiments aimed at discovering where their founding ancestors came from.

Obviously, not being a geneticist, my observations are subject to dismissal, however, according to census data, the population of Guatemala alone is 12,328,453 people. Of that 44% is Indian. Doing very rough math, that means that there are about 5 million indians in Guatemala alone. If all 7300 DNA samples were taken from only indians in Guatemala, that would be a sample size of 0.00146%. But all 7300 samples were taken from different countries, different tribes, etc. So, I am -- in my own ignorant fashion -- at a loss as to how this sample size is even helpful.

The Book of Mormon claims in its introduction that the Book of Mormon people (the Lamanites) "are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

The first fundamentalist argument. The introduction didn't even exist until 1980. How can it have any bearing on the discussion whatsoever except as a reflection of common belief?

Most LDS adherents believe, and all the LDS prophets have taught, that Israelites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

Again, so what? Note how Simon is relying on the unspoken idea of the infallibility of prophets to bolster his arguments. The Book of Mormon itself never makes any claims in this regard.

It is therefore absurd to claim that what the scientists are discovering about Indian heritage is irrelevant.

But it is irrelevant except to correction of erroneous folk belief. Moreover, LDS views on this were changing long before Murphny or Southerton's names were ever known.

Scientists are inadvertently asking the same question posed by the Book of Mormon, and LDS beliefs about Indian ancestry fall squarely into the scientific field of anthropology. Molecular anthropologists are uncovering evidence that is directly relevant to LDS beliefs in this area.

Really? What scientist has ever attempted prove or disprove that the injection of a very limited number of foreigners into the native population should be relected the genetics of the host population?

In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites, say less than thirty, entered such a massive native population, it would be very hard to detect their genes today. However, such a scenario does not square with what the Book of Mormon plainly states and with what the prophets have taught for 175 years.

Fundamentalistic horsehocky. The B of M never states that others were not here and,in fact, appears to be quite clear that other were here. The fact that this point is debatable proves that the B of M does not "plainly state" anything to the contrary. Moreover, his comment about "what the prophets have taught for 175 years" again relies on the idea of prophetic infallibility. To my knowledge, no prophet has ever even speculated as to presense (or lack thereof) of others when the Nephites arrived.

The interesting thing is that Simon's arguments cannot stand on scientific principles alone. They rebut folk beliefs only. They do not address the actual text of the book itself.

If so, why would God change the DNA so it matched Asian DNA? As Latter-day Saints, we have already offended Blacks and the Indians. Are we going to offend Asians now, as well?

Who has ever made this claim? I'm quite certain the neither FARMS nor FAIR has ever fronted this argument or anything like unto it.

These are just a few, quick thoughts and not very indepth. I'm simply struck at how much Simon relies on "what the prophets" said to make his case. At it's heart, that is a "fundamentalistic" argument relying on the concept of prophetic infallibility which Mormons have never held to.

C.I.

[dacook]

I have always (before FARMS and FAIR) thought that the way their skin color was changed was by intermarrying with the natives.

[leeuniverse]

Most LDS adherents believe, and all the LDS prophets have taught, that Israelites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

That's because LDS theology states that the 12 Tribes of Israel is intermixed into all races of the earth.

And Israel being the "chief" founding race of God, that would make Israel "principle ancestors".

[Dan Vogel]

Dan P.,

"BTW, Southerton has viewed this thread and is not impressed with what he saw." -- Dan Vogel

Thanks for helping me get the word out.

[Daniel Peterson]

Thanks for helping me get the word out.

If I could do more, I would. I live for Dr. Southerton's approval.

[Corky Wallace]

Oh, observe the love between the two Dans! We are truly blessed to witness this display of Christian brotherhood. May somebody fetch me a kleenex?

[end of sarcasm]