Robert F. Smith Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: .....................................Ehrman argues oral traditions of 1st century Christians were not accurate because memory is very fallible and because you get significant changes after many decades. For Ehrman the gospels are what the Christians believed at the time after 70 AD. Making Ehrman your god is probably not too wise, Sam. I have already shown you that his is not the only opinion on the matter of oral tradition, and you fear to respond to those other views. However, it is true that the Gospels do represent the views of various Christian communities in the second half of the 1st century. As Clark Goble suggested, you should have read Greg Boyd, “How Reliable were the Early Church’s Oral Traditions?” Re|Knew, 2008, online at http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-reliable-was-the-early-churchs-oral-traditions/ . Or perhaps “Gospel ‘Contradictions’ and Orality Studies,” Re|Knew, 2008, online at http://reknew.org/2008/12/gospel-contradicitons-and-orality-studies/ . 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Robert, You didn't respond to Frier's research. I know oral traditions could be accurate, but do you have any evidence most New Testament stories were widely circulated by well trained Christians? It is my understanding that was not the case for 1st century Christians. I know, but is there any evidence that most first century Christians used such memory techniques for stories about Jesus? It is my understanding that Jews were very careful with Hebrew scriptures, but it was not the same for stories about Jesus that were not seen as scriptures at the time. The early Christians were all Jews and Jewish tradition was of prime importance. You can disregard that fact, if you wish, but it won't help you understand the Gospels. You might at least consider having a look at a view different from your god Ehrman: G. Boyd & P. Eddy, Lord or Legend? (Baker, 2007). P. Eddy & G. Boyd, The Jesus Legend (Baker, 2007). 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted January 8, 2018 Author Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) 22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Making Ehrman your god is probably not too wise, Sam. Robert. You said "anything written by Ehrman is usually pretty good and thought provoking. " I said Ehrman, Carrier, and Price are anti-Christian socialists. I simply point out what scholars say Robert, I didn't say I believe them. I believe the Book of Mormon when it tells me the scriptures come from the hands of the twelve apostles. 22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I have already shown you that his is not the only opinion on the matter of oral tradition, and you fear to respond to those other views. I know. I suspect most New Testament scholars are Christian. Why? Because New Testament scholarship mostly attracts Christians. 22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: As Clark Goble suggested, you should have read Greg Boyd, “How Reliable were the Early Church’s Oral Traditions?” Re|Knew, 2008, online at http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-reliable-was-the-early-churchs-oral-traditions/ . I am reading it. And you should read John F Kihlstrom. https://web.berkeley.edu/socrates-and-scholar-retired In his book Who Wrote the Gospels? New Testament scholar Randel Helms argues oral traditions are not reliable. For Helms, "We know that by the forties of the first century traditions already existed which we would now label orthodox and traditions coming to be recognized as heretical" Robert, if well trained Christians were very careful in the first century how did we get so many false stories about Jesus? For example the story of Jesus being crucified by demons. Why do we have so many non-canonical gospels with so many weird stories? 22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The early Christians were all Jews and Jewish tradition was of prime importance. You can disregard that fact, if you wish, but it won't help you understand the Gospels. You might at least consider having a look at a view different from your god Ehrman: G. Boyd & P. Eddy, Lord or Legend? (Baker, 2007). P. Eddy & G. Boyd, The Jesus Legend (Baker, 2007). In How the New Testament Came to Be The 35th Annual Brigham Young University Sidney B. Sperry Symposium an author argues Christians were not as careful as non-Christian Jews. Edited January 8, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Robert. You said "anything written by Ehrman is usually pretty good and thought provoking. " I said Ehrman, Carrier, and Price are anti-Christian socialists. I simply point out what scholars say Robert, I didn't say I believe them. I believe the Book of Mormon when it tells me the scriptures come from the hands of the twelve apostles. I like Ehrman and his work, but I don't make him my god, as you do. And I don't spend my time labeling this or that scholar as pro-Christian or anti-Christian, socialist, capitalist, etc. I judge them based on their substantive scholarship. You ought to first learn the basics, then go and do likewise. 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: I know. I suspect most New Testament scholars are Christian. Why? Because New Testament scholarship mostly attracts Christians. I don't really care much whether a NT scholar is an atheist, or some species of so-called "christian," or Jew. The backgrounds of NT scholars run the gamut, and I am concerned with the quality of their scholarship. So should you be. However, since you don't know the basics, you are likely to make a god of some scholar about whom you know nothing. 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: I am reading it. And you should read John F Kihlstrom. https://web.berkeley.edu/socrates-and-scholar-retired In his book Who Wrote the Gospels? New Testament scholar Randel Helms argues oral traditions are not reliable. For Helms, "We know that by the forties of the first century traditions already existed which we would now label orthodox and traditions coming to be recognized as heretical" Would you know the difference between an "orthodox" belief and a "heretical" belief? And, since Helms (a professor of English Literature) is speaking of opinions today, what do you imagine his notions would be on defining those beliefs? Is Helms a NT scholar, and does he have anything meaningful to say? What would he say of the Book of Mormon? 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Robert, if well trained Christians were very careful in the first century how did we get so many false stories about Jesus? For example the story of Jesus being crucified by demons. Why do we have so many non-canonical gospels with so many weird stories? We probably have so many works of fiction (including Helm's favorite author Tolkien) because children like to read fiction. Helms thinks that the Gospels are paganized fiction. Do you believe him? 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: In How the New Testament Came to Be The 35th Annual Brigham Young University Sidney B. Sperry Symposium an author argues Christians were not as careful as non-Christian Jews. Why are you afraid to name that author, and to quote what he actually said? Did you bother to read that 2006 compilation? If so, that is good. It means that you are beginning to read a variety of opinions on the NT, instead of just watching videos. You may be getting down to basics. 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted January 9, 2018 Author Posted January 9, 2018 On 1/8/2018 at 5:12 AM, Robert F. Smith said: Would you know the difference between an "orthodox" belief and a "heretical" belief? And, since Helms (a professor of English Literature) is speaking of opinions today, what do you imagine his notions would be on defining those beliefs? Is Helms a NT scholar, and does he have anything meaningful to say? What would he say of the Book of Mormon? Helms doesn't have an opinion about "orthodox" or "heretical" doctrines because he is not a Christian. He "teaches courses in Bible as Literature". There are plenty of scholars that argue oral traditions are not reliable, but we don't have to appeal to authority. Just like me know why there are so many false stories about Jesus outside the canonical gospels.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 7 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Helms doesn't have an opinion about "orthodox" or "heretical" doctrines because he is not a Christian. False. Any scholar (Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, atheist, etc.) can determine whether a particular POV is heretical or orthodox. 7 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: He "teaches courses in Bible as Literature". There are plenty of scholars that argue oral traditions are not reliable, but we don't have to appeal to authority. Just like me know why there are so many false stories about Jesus outside the canonical gospels. So, in essence, you are not able to distinguish between children playing "telephone" and serious tradents passing on oral traditions, and you have no idea what I am talking about. 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) On 1/10/2018 at 12:52 AM, Robert F. Smith said: So, in essence, you are not able to distinguish between children playing "telephone" and serious tradents passing on oral traditions, and you have no idea what I am talking about. Robert. It is possible oral traditions before 70 AD were passed by well trained Christians, but there is no way to confirm that. Most oral traditions in history have not been accurate read John F Kihlstrom. https://web.berkeley.edu/socrates-and-scholar-retired. If the oral traditions are accurate then why do we have so many different stories about Jesus? If you don't have the answer it is okay Robert, I will not judge you. Edited January 11, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
SamuelTheLamanite Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 On 1/8/2018 at 5:12 AM, Robert F. Smith said: I like Ehrman and his work, but I don't make him my god, as you do. And I don't spend my time labeling this or that scholar as pro-Christian or anti-Christian, socialist, capitalist, etc. I judge them based on their substantive scholarship. You ought to first learn the basics, then go and do likewise. You still think I don't know the basics
SamuelTheLamanite Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 Robert, I think we are not going to get anywhere. Let's just agree to disagree. For you early Christians oral traditions could be accurate. For me, well I have my doubts.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 58 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: You still think I don't know the basics You have proven that you don't. However, if you are sincere, you could certainly learn the basics. 17 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Robert, I think we are not going to get anywhere. Let's just agree to disagree. For you early Christians oral traditions could be accurate. For me, well I have my doubts. There is nothing wrong with having doubts, Sam. In fact doubts and questions are always a good place to begin learning. Since you are a beginner, that would be a good place for you to start. Try one or two of the courses I have recommended. It will open a whole new world for you. That is how I started over a half-century ago. Maybe in 2065 you'll be giving the same advice to some brash young guy who thinks that he knows it all. Hopefully he will listen to you. 1
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