Keys of the kingdom and the roots of the Nauvoo endowment

[probablyHagoth7]

11 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

...some burden of proof showing how this is plausible is necessary...

How a Nephite migration to Europe is plausible:

• Boats float.
• Nephites are known to have built *many* boats, migrated in various generations, and crossed many waters.
• For a seafaring people, the Atlantic Ocean is a path to Europe
• A seafaring people with Nephite culture suddenly appeared in Europe w/in 2 years after the beginning of Hagoth's shipbuilding activity.
• Those newcomers arrived with origin accounts that claimed they came across the (western) waters....from a land whose name meant desolation.

(If the newcomers with Nephite traditions/beliefs, laws, measurements, tactics, forms of writing, and other skills weren't Nephites, then who in the Sam Hill were they, and from whence did they come?)

 

How a Nephite migration to Europe is a bulwark for faithful guidance:

• The Book of Mormon foretold Nephite/Israelite migrations spanning the globe. 
• D&C & Book of Mormon also foretold the reception of the Nephite record by many such descendants, who would rediscover their heritage.
• That discovery is a key purpose/intent of the Nephite record.
• We either choose to exercise a wee bit of faith in such recurring promises, or without further thought cast such things out, and trample them underfoot.

Thoughts?

Edited April 15, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[William Jones]

51 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

How a Nephite migration to Europe is plausible:

• Boats float.
• Nephites are known to have built *many* boats, migrated in various generations, and crossed many waters.
• For a seafaring people, the Atlantic Ocean is a path to Europe
• A seafaring people with Nephite culture suddenly appeared in Europe w/in 2 years after the beginning of Hagoth's shipbuilding activity.
• Those newcomers arrived with origin accounts that claimed they came across the (western) waters....from a land whose name meant desolation.

(If the newcomers with Nephite traditions/beliefs, laws, measurements, tactics, forms of writing, and other skills weren't Nephites, then who in the Sam Hill were they, and from whence did they come?)

 

How a Nephite migration to Europe preserves/showcases faithful guidance:

• The Book of Mormon foretold Nephite/Israelite migrations spanning the globe. 
• D&C & Book of Mormon also foretold the reception of the Nephite record by many such descendants, who would rediscover their heritage.
• That discovery is a key purpose/intent of the Nephite record.
• We either choose to exercise a wee bit of faith in such recurring promises, or without further thought cast such things out and trample them underfoot.

Thoughts?

Do you have anything from europe such as a written account to back up your assertion or are you using faith as proof?  Anything is possible but not everything is probable unfortunately.

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, William Jones said:

Do you have anything from europe such as a written account to back up your assertion...

Certainly. 

Over the last decade, I have compared hundreds of European sources, including every available origin account from the related peoples of northern Europe, numerous ancient Roman accounts , Celtic accounts, other Germanic accounts (including Danish, English etc.), archaeology, linguistic studies, religious practices, legends/mythologies, old maps, etc.

They all attest to European culture being a counterpart/sequel to Alma 63 - where on one hand thousands of Nephites sailed off and vanished from then-known Nephite history, and on the other hand a seafaring people landed in Europe and transformed Western civilization.

Although ancient Romans had been invaded by peoples from the north around 100 BC, no ancient reference of any "German" existed in northern Europe until the term was used by Julius Caesar in 58 BC (contemporary w/Hagoth), describing a newly arrived people he encountered during his unprecedented expedition/campaign into the region.

And the core meaning of Ger-man remains embedded in the Spanish words her-man-o & her-man-a (brother/sister)...The same words of egalitarianism/affinity used in church to this day.  

Doesn't matter where we turn for such accounts. Romans, Celts, English, Lombards, Goths, Icelanders, Danes, Germans....the same fractal/message is embedded in almost every facet of each such culture: that a seafaring people arrived in Europe before Christ and rapidly transformed Western Civilization.

Without that people's infusion into Europe, the freedoms that millions have enjoyed for centuries would not have survived the Roman Empire.

So we have a wee bit more to consider/appreciate when encountering the Nephite record.

So with such evidence, Nephites in Europe are more than just possible. And more than just plausible.  

What facet of that cultural infusion (or what kind of such evidence) do you think might initially aid you the most? 

1 hour ago, William Jones said:

...or are you using faith as proof? 

False dichotomy. 

I use both. In almost all things.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Edited April 15, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[William Jones]

4 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Certainly. 

Over the last decade, I have compared hundreds of European sources, including every available origin account from the related peoples of northern Europe, numerous ancient Roman accounts , Celtic accounts, other Germanic accounts (including Danish, English etc.), archaeology, linguistic studies, religious practices, legends/mythologies, old maps, etc.

They all attest to European culture being a counterpart/sequel to Alma 63 - where on one hand thousands of Nephites sailed off and vanished from then-known Nephite history, and on the other hand a seafaring people landed in Europe and transformed Western civilization.

Although ancient Romans had been invaded by peoples from the north around 100 BC, no ancient reference of any "German" existed in northern Europe until the term was used by Julius Caesar in 58 BC (contemporary w/Hagoth), describing a newly arrived people he encountered during his unprecedented expedition/campaign into the region.

And the core meaning of Ger-man remains embedded in the Spanish words her-man-o & her-man-a (brother/sister)...The same words of egalitarianism/affinity used in church to this day.  

Doesn't matter where we turn for such accounts. Romans, Celts, English, Lombards, Goths, Icelanders, Danes, Germans....the same fractal/message is embedded in almost every facet of each such culture: that a seafaring people arrived in Europe before Christ and rapidly transformed Western Civilization.

Without that people's infusion into Europe, the freedoms that millions have enjoyed for centuries would not have survived the Roman Empire.

So we have a wee bit more to consider/appreciate when encountering the Nephite record.

So with such evidence, Nephites in Europe are more than just possible. And more than just plausible.  

What facet of that cultural infusion (or what kind of such evidence) do you think might initially aid you the most? 

False dichotomy. 

I use both. In almost all things.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

If you found something then why don't you share so it can be checked? Bald assertions that you researched something really don't amount to much without something tangible.

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, William Jones said:

If you found something then why don't you share so it can be checked? Bald assertions that you researched something really don't amount to much without something tangible.

Bald? I am beginning to resemble that comment. 

For an initial primer: http://candlestickstudio.com/files/Nephites.pdf

Edited April 15, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[William Jones]

30 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Bald? I am beginning to resemble that comment. 

For an initial primer: http://candlestickstudio.com/files/Nephites.pdf

Do you really believe this stuff?

[probablyHagoth7]

2 hours ago, William Jones said:

Do you really believe this stuff?

Yep.

Among a number of other things.

What do you believe?

[William Jones]

Just now, probablyHagoth7 said:

Yep.

Among a number of other things.

What do you believe?

I don't believe the Nephites were in Europe. I really don't believe they were in America either. Much like a lot of the Biblical stories are myth, I think Joseph Smith, and maybe with the help of others, created the Book of Mormon from his imagination. I don't doubt these books have helped people in their lives. However, I believe they are myth just the same.

[probablyHagoth7]

2 minutes ago, William Jones said:

I don't believe the Nephites were in Europe.

Understood.  Why?

I really don't believe they were in America either....

Understood. Again, why?

[William Jones]

1 hour ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Understood.  Why?

Understood. Again, why?

For me it starts with the seer stone then goes from there.

[probablyHagoth7]

13 hours ago, William Jones said:

For me it starts with the seer stone then goes from there.

In response, for starters:

• Do you believe the message from scores of European texts that attest to the arrival of a patriarch of a still-ruling family that was said to come from an unknown land across the ocean?   
• ...and origin accounts from related peoples that corroborate that same message?

Edited April 16, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[William Jones]

58 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

In response, for starters:

• Do you believe the message from scores of European texts that attest to the arrival of a patriarch of a still-ruling family that was said to come from an unknown land across the ocean?   
• ...and origin accounts from related peoples that corroborate that same message?

What are these texts? Where did they come from? How reliable are they? How do know they are talking about nephites and not some other group?

[probablyHagoth7]

21 hours ago, William Jones said:

...why don't you share so it can be checked?...

? What are you checking for. Specifically what are you seeking, wanting, hoping to discover through such a check?

[William Jones]

1 minute ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

? What are you checking for. Specifically what are you seeking, wanting, hoping to discover through such a check?

Assertions need to be verified and backed up with good evidence. People are biased, especially when they are making claims that could supposedly bolster religious claims. Cross checking these claims, as you undoubtedly know, by many independent cross-checkers aids in diminishing error.  If I claim that I stumbled across some ancient writings that predicted a false prophet that would falsely claim to have translated a false book about ancient israelites in america from made-up plates, wouldn't you want to check it out?  Wouldn't you want to verify my claim before you chose to change your religious views?  I would expect you would want to and I would welcome such scrutiny.

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, William Jones said:

...Cross checking these claims, as you undoubtedly know, by many independent cross-checkers aids in diminishing error....

That is only true if the testing methodologies (and the assumptions going into those methodologies) are valid/reliable.

Groupthink is often wrong.   Lemming mode / wide road. 

10,000 people can investigate a matter, and 9,999 can conclude it ain't true...and that doesn't tip the scales to somehow make a true thing false.

The truth or error of something is not manufactured by committee. Something is either true...or it ain't. Independent in its own sphere.

Which is why I request clarification as to your methodology/assumptions/interpretations...as you have rightly done for mine.

Edited April 16, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[William Jones]

2 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

That is only true if the testing methodologies (and the assumptions going into those methodologies) are valid/reliable.

Groupthink is often wrong.   Lemming mode / wide road. 

10,000 people can investigate a matter, and 9,999 can conclude it ain't true...and that doesn't tip the scales to somehow make a true thing false.

The truth or error of something is not manufactured by committee. Something is either true...or it ain't. Independent in its own sphere.

Which is why I request clarification as to your methodology/assumptions/interpretations...as you have rightly done for mine.

You are the one making the claim and not me. So your methodology, etc. is what is important and not mine.

[probablyHagoth7]

5 hours ago, William Jones said:

You are the one making the claim and not me. So your methodology, etc. is what is important and not mine.

To be frank, both my approach and yours are equally important....if there's gonna be any meaningful exchange here.

Presuming otherwise is disingenuous, and could be like being part of a business claiming to accurately gauge whether there's useful energy at a source....equipped with only a bathroom scale and a ruler as measuring devices. One cannot accurately/reliably assess any spiritual claim without a viable methodology. Secular approaches to spiritual content will at best bring you near the door of perceiving/receiving spiritual things....and can more often lead you to false negatives, rejecting a number of things that are actually true. Stepping across such a threshold to fully engage with spiritual claims requires a different set of principles....eventually including a glimmer of hope that such a thing just might be true.

Fair enough?

If you'd like to proceed (I would), how about we move the rest of this discussion to a new thread, rather than derail this one?

Edited April 17, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[clarkgoble]

On 4/15/2017 at 8:40 AM, probablyHagoth7 said:

How a Nephite migration to Europe is plausible:

• Boats float.
• Nephites are known to have built *many* boats, migrated in various generations, and crossed many waters.
• For a seafaring people, the Atlantic Ocean is a path to Europe
• A seafaring people with Nephite culture suddenly appeared in Europe w/in 2 years after the beginning of Hagoth's shipbuilding activity.
• Those newcomers arrived with origin accounts that claimed they came across the (western) waters....from a land whose name meant desolation.

(If the newcomers with Nephite traditions/beliefs, laws, measurements, tactics, forms of writing, and other skills weren't Nephites, then who in the Sam Hill were they, and from whence did they come?)

I'd say that's less plausible than possible. Pacific journeys are more plausible simply because there's at least rudimentary evidence for cross pacific voyages. So far as I know outside of limited Irish or viking visits to northern Canada there's no evidence for travel from America to the mediterranean region.

The claim that " seafaring people with Nephite culture suddenly appeared in Europe w/in 2 years after the beginning of Hagoth's shipbuilding activity" seems dubious and requires some reasonable level of evidence. I should note that I think the evidence for Nephites at all would be nearly non-existent were it not for the Book of Mormon. So someone of that level is what I'd require.

Quote

How a Nephite migration to Europe is a bulwark for faithful guidance:

• The Book of Mormon foretold Nephite/Israelite migrations spanning the globe. 
• D&C & Book of Mormon also foretold the reception of the Nephite record by many such descendants, who would rediscover their heritage.
• That discovery is a key purpose/intent of the Nephite record.
• We either choose to exercise a wee bit of faith in such recurring promises, or without further thought cast such things out, and trample them underfoot.

Thoughts?

This is the bigger problem. I don't think there's any need to postulate Nephites in Europe. As I said the origins of masonry are reasonably well known and can be explained by hermeticism and particularly Bruno's more magical take on the art of memory. We have a reasonably good understanding of what royal arch masonry consists of. We have a reasonably good understanding of what renaissance esoteric traditions consisted of and what that hermetic tradition likely provided to Joseph Smith. We don't need European Nephites to explain Jospeh's behavior.

Put simply, they offer no explanatory power at all. Further if they existed with this secret knowledge then it would have to be passed down for 1800 years and there's zero evidence of that in the detail needed when Bruno's beliefs can explain most things.

So it's a very implausible theory with no explanatory power. I confess I don't see the point.

[William Jones]

23 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

To be frank, both my approach and yours are equally important....if there's gonna be any meaningful exchange here.

Presuming otherwise is disingenuous, and could be like being part of a business claiming to accurately gauge whether there's useful energy at a source....equipped with only a bathroom scale and a ruler as measuring devices. One cannot accurately/reliably assess any spiritual claim without a viable methodology. Secular approaches to spiritual content will at best bring you near the door of perceiving/receiving spiritual things....and can more often lead you to false negatives, rejecting a number of things that are actually true. Stepping across such a threshold to fully engage with spiritual claims requires a different set of principles....eventually including a glimmer of hope that such a thing just might be true.

Fair enough?

If you'd like to proceed (I would), how about we move the rest of this discussion to a new thread, rather than derail this one?

I don't see how faith or what I believe or don't believe has anything to do with whether or not you can show that there were nephites in europe. Just show your proof. And if your article is all you have, then I have my answer: mere faith based speculation and nothing close to good evidence. Frankly, I'm not surprised given the seer stone origins of the book of mormon.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, William Jones said:

...........................

.......................Frankly, I'm not surprised given the seer stone origins of the book of mormon.

What does this snide remark mean?  And how is it relevant to science or history?

[William Jones]

8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What does this snide remark mean?  And how is it relevant to science or history?

Well I don't think the bible or the book of mormon are relevant to science or history. They are religious stories invented for various purposes but clearly aren't real, historical accounts. Mr. probablyhagoth7's faith based theory of nephites in europe is along the same lines.

[probablyHagoth7]

43 minutes ago, William Jones said:

I don't see how faith or what I believe or don't believe has anything to do with whether or not you can show that there were nephites in europe....Frankly, I'm not surprised given the seer stone origins of the book of mormon.

Frankly?

Um, you have yet to demonstrate that you are being frank. (The word Frank also refers to an early Germanic people, the ones from whom the modern nation of France got its name.)  More than a coincidence.

If you opt to approach such things sincerely/frankly, you would actually need to humbly drop the belief/assertion/insistence that any use (or non-use) of a seer stone, or a plastic decoder ring, or a bobbing-head John Stockton doll...somehow equips a historian to determine whether something actually happened or not. Because it doesn't.

Do your best to enter this discussion unarmed of as much arrogance, snideness and preconception as you can muster. If you're willing/able, I'll do my best to do the same.

No blades, no bows. Just two guys havin' a chat.

Is that an option for you? If not, we would simply be wasting one another's valuable time.

Edited April 17, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[probablyHagoth7]

35 minutes ago, William Jones said:

I don't see how faith or what I believe or don't believe has anything to do with whether or not you can show that there were nephites in europe...

Your beliefs very much determine whether you would benefit from such a discussion.

If you both believed and adamantly insisted that Christopher Columbus was a dill pickle, never existed as a man, and never sailed the ocean blue, we would be wasting each other's time...and the forum's bandwidth... discussing one of the most important things he wrote. If you're not open to the premise that Christopher actually might have lived...the discussion is over before it began.

Ditto with Nephites.

[William Jones]

8 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Your beliefs very much determine whether you would benefit from such a discussion.

If you both believed and adamantly insisted that Christopher Columbus was a dill pickle, never existed as a man, and never sailed the ocean blue, we would be wasting each other's time...and the forum's bandwidth... discussing one of the most important things he wrote. If you're not open to the premise that Christopher actually might have lived...the discussion is over before it began.

Ditto with Nephites.

I'm sorry clark gobel didn't value your theory. Maybe you could benefit from some advice I received from a current G.A. when I was active and in his ward. He said that spiritual reasoning doesn't work well outside of church. It is meant for the for a certain space only. In nephites in europe case, I think you relied too much on faith and wishful thinking and not enough on reason. Have you ever seen someone who wants to believe something so badly that they shut their eyes to contrary evidence? Back in the last real estate bubble people thought land values would continue higher and higher. The same thing happened in the nasdaq bubble of the late 90's. You couldn't tell the "believers" anything contrary. Do you think your nephites in europe theory might suffer from your wanting to believe too much?

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Pacific journeys are more plausible simply because there's at least rudimentary evidence for cross pacific voyages. So far as I know outside of limited Irish or viking visits to northern Canada there's no evidence for travel from America to the mediterranean region.

1. Strawman. I never claimed (nor do I believe) that Nephites sailed from America to the Mediterranean. 
2. Bizarre mental gymnastics to exclude transatlantic Nephite travel. Water is water. If people can use stars, currents, winds, sails, and paddles to navigate the Pacific, or Lake Superior, or Aunt Bertha's pond, what holds them from doing something similar in the Atlantic, or your bathtub? And then right after citing Irish and Viking transatlantic voyages (both directions)...which clearly demonstrate the viability of early transatlantic travel...you then suggest it's unreasonable that Nephites did likewise? (In this matter, you have a dizzying intellect.) If you simply prefer to have your Masonic theories undisturbed, have a great week.

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

The claim that seafaring people with Nephite culture suddenly appeared in Europe w/in 2 years after the beginning of Hagoth's shipbuilding activity" seems dubious.

? If you don't want to believe it, then don't, and simply move on to other matters you deem to be more pressing.

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

This is the bigger problem. I don't think there's any need to postulate Nephites in Europe....So it's a very implausible theory with no explanatory power. I confess I don't see the point.

And some would say that they have a Bible, and have no need for any other Bible. If you're fully satisfied with what's on your plate, I bid you adieu and wish you an awesome week. 

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

The claim that " seafaring people with Nephite culture...if they existed with this secret knowledge then it would have to be passed down for 1800 years and there's zero evidence of that in the detail needed when Bruno's beliefs can explain most things.

Then I suggest that you and Bruno become fast friends. Meanwhile, as to your assertion that there is no evidence for early masonic activity, I'd suggest doing a careful recheck on that theory with masonic friends. I look forward to hearing what you find.