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Why did Jesus revere Abraham?


The Mormonator

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Just thought I would throw in another Prophet for the critics to ignore - Moses. Moses was still married to Jethro's daughter when he married an Ethiopian woman (Num. 12:1). Not only did God not oppose Moses in this action but he cursed Aaron and Miriam for speaking out against it! The irony is that Mose's siblings were probably opposed to the marriage not because it was plural, but because she was not of Israel.

It is still hard for me to see how some claim to believe so strongly in the bible and yet due to cultural bais will do back flips to try and get around the fact that God sanctioned polygamy with many of His prophets.

Abanes, I do not believe that polygamy is to be practiced at all times - this is clear from Jacobs statement (thus your Adam, Jane, Eve, Mary, Bobby Sue, argument does not pass). By ignoring the times it is sanctioned, and saying it is sinfull even in light of all the prophets who practiced it, shows that culture and not scripture dictate your views on this one.

Also your examples of how polygamist families fail ignores those cases where it succeeds (your MO). It would be very easy to do the same with monogamy. There are tons of examples of how monogamy leads to spouse abuse, divorce, child abuse, suicide, finicial ruin - at all depends on which examples you cherry pick to make your case.

P.S. My ancestors were a case of where polygamy had very positive results that go on to this day. I never meet a Maughan I didn't lilke - thank God William followed the consul of the prophet or I, and many other bright, charming, wonderful people would not be here :P .

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It is still hard for me to see how some claim to believe so strongly in the bible and yet due to cultural bais will do back flips to try and get around the fact that God sanctioned polygamy with many of His prophets.

The arguments I gave had nothing to do with the fact that Western society abhors polygamy--they were based upon an analysis of the relevent biblical passages.

Your claim that God sanctioned polygamy is over-stated. He allowed it in specific instances, but never encouraged or supported it in general. Monogamy was the norm.

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emaug: Just thought I would throw in another Prophet for the critics to ignore - Moses. Moses was still married to Jethro's daughter when he married an Ethiopian woman (Num. 12:1).

RA: As always, I find myself trapped in myriad threads trying to keep up. I have not the time or strengh to engage in YET ANOTHER tread on polygamy. But, just quickly, your claim about Moses is flawed.

By the time Scripture mentions this Cushite, Moses

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To say otherwise is an assumption made by polygamy supporters.

Seeing as how Moses gave the law which provided for multiple wives, why is it so objectionable that he would merely have abided by the law which he gave and which carries his name?

In the end, it's okay to admit they practiced polygamy. Now, what creative arguments you use to get around the obvious fact that God sanctioned it...that's up to you. But when the prophet Nathan says that God instructed him to give David those wives, etc., I take his word over yours.

C.I.

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I wouldn't doubt that I have read the BOM more than you and more than most LDS. I know what it says.

You can read it a thousand times and gain nothing if you continue to read it as selectively as you seem . .

PS - Jesus said that the desire (lust) was a sin, call Him on it if you choose.

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In the end, it's okay to admit they practiced polygamy.  Now, what creative arguments you use to get around the obvious fact that God sanctioned it...that's up to you.  But when the prophet Nathan says that God instructed him to give David those wives, etc., I take his word over yours.

There is no need to get creative. The situation with David has been shown to be an exception to the general rule.

God never sanctioned polygamy, he allowed it at times in very specific circumstances.

In the NT Paul makes it clear that the spiritually mature will have only one spouse. Those with more than one wife are not condemned, but they are not held up as the ideal. They are disqualified from church leadership.

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Benjamin McGuire: In practice, however, the brother was often married. This resulted in over 100 clarifications on the practice in the rabbinic legal code dealing specifically with levirate marriage on the issue of polygamy.

I don't see that as relevant. The point is clear, the passage simply cannot be used to positively show a command to practice polygamy. There are reasons to believe that he was not in fact married. Therefore, the passage is neutral.

Benjamin McGuire: Your Western, Christian cultural setting is of course the basis for your bias.

The bias I have against polygamy does not come from a Western or even Christian cultural setting. I have spent considerable time in 3 countries in which the practice is common. I personally know polygamist men and women. I see the how hard it is for them and for the children. It is obviously lust driven for the men, and for the women, usually they are looking for security. Most times, the new wife is happy as she gets all the attention. The problems between Sarah and Hagar are typical of these types of relationships.

Benjamin McGuire: This doesn't imply that polygamy as a whole was bad or an abomination (as sr1030 asserts) but rather that the abuse of polygamy which David and Solomon engaged in against the commandments in the Books of Moses was an abomination. The same could be said of those Nephites who were engaging in polygamy since Lehi instituted a ban on polygamy (see Jacob 3) which would affect them, although to apply Lehi's ban backwards onto David and Solomon is clearly ludicrous, as a condemnation of polygamy in general would be a contradiction of Mosaic Law which the Nephite community held in very high esteem.

The BOM is clear. You have yet to deal with the contradiction. Jacob 1:15 and Jacob 2:24, compared with D&C 132. The D&C indicates David took a wife that was not given by God in only one case, the BOM indicates it was a pattern and there were many.

I must assume that LDS cannot adequately address this contradiction.

sr

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SR: The bias I have against polygamy does not come from a Western or even Christian cultural setting.

RA: AGREED AGREED AGREED. Thank you. I agree 100%. Look, I don't really care about polygamy all that much, personally speaking. Of course, my personal feeling is that it just happens to be a convenient way for men to subjugate women and at the same time get as much @#^@#^& as they want in some very interesting ways from teenagers when they are 50-70 years old. But my personal opinion is BESIDE the point. Soooooo . . . . .

1. all I really care about is whether or not God commanded/ordained polygamy.

2. all I really care about is whether the Bible seems to condone it or seems to condemn it.

I agree with David Whitmer (even without the BOM). Polygamy, biblically speaking, was never ordained/commanded by God. He allowed for it, provided for it, tolerated it, out of the hardness of men's hearts, just as he allowed for, provided for, and tolerated divorce and slavery.

My "Western" sensitivities have nothing to do with it. Indeed, I am not even all that "sensitive" about it. Give me a break. I grew up in show business not only with practicing gays and lesbians, but fornicating heteros all around me. Trust me, I am NOT that sensitive. :P

If God had said polygamy is fine, then fine. Ok. Whatever. But he hasn't. Sorry.

RAbanes

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Elihu writes:

QUOTE

1. Christians are to obey the laws of their land out of reverence and respect for Jesus Christ. If it is illegal to have more than one wife at a time in a nation, then that is Gods rule that we obey, as govenments are set up and destroyed according to His good will.

Ben:

But there has to be a caveat of some sort to go along with this statement. If the law is one that requires what a Christian would consider to be a sin, or one that prevents a Christian obligation (or even the practice or public mention of Christianity), do Christians actually beleive that these laws should be embraced and followed? If so, why do we treat those who promote their faith and become criminals as martyrs?

Elihu: Caveat? For what? The commands of Jesus are simple and easy to bear. As for any law that might be in CONFLICT with the commandments of Jesus - He plainly said that we render to God the things that are God's and to the government the things that are the governments'. If a person can't make the distinction, then that is where Joseph Smith's favorite verse of praying for wisdom takes the lead, but only when you do you best to soundly and uprightly follow Gods will and word.

Never has God made marriage or polygamy a standard of righteousness or salvation - except to say it is better to marry than burn with lust or sin. If you have desires to have more than one wife - go do it somewhere else. Don't try to dishonor Jesus with you lust.
Paul nevertheless states he believes that all should be married. Not some, not most, not just those who are susceptible to weakness - every man and every woman.

Nor did Jesus ever say that polygamy was wrong.

Ben

Elihu: Just how do you see the application of what Jesus said to say that He supported any need for a man to have more than one wife? Can you think of any of His teachings that would lead one to see it as Joseph gave us in D&C 132 etc..?

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Well, thanks so much for the decent words Mormonator:-), after all, it was you who invited my comments to your post! As the invited guest I'll just have to make comment.

Those who are of Christ will take what He said on the topic as supreme truth. After all, He often said 'you have heard, but I say to you' on various topics.

"From the beginning it hath not been so".

Well, just how was it from the beginning then?

One man and one woman.

Joseph even changed this to fit his desires, which were certainly not of God.

Thereby I can discern Josephs qualification of speaking for God on the matter: You either believe Jesus or Joseph - you really can't do justice to Jesus if you believe Joseph instead.

And how many wives did Adam have before he came to earth instead of being created out of the dust of the earth as Moses said? (and Jesus said we should believe Moses, for Moses spoke of Him)

Even David had the morality to not marry Bathsheba with her husband still alive. Joseph married other mens wives while they were still married to them!!!!! :P

Just for the record, Joseph smith got the revelation and was so abhorred by it that it took him years to reconcile himself with it. The same was true of Brigham young. Brigham and Joseph both stated that it repulsed them and offended them to the very core, but they had to reconcile it in order to be obedient. They themselves did not want to practice it.

It was given by the Lord, and it seems Gods intent on its practice was to increase the seed of certain, not all, lineages.

Solomon did not sin until he chose a woman out of the circle of women allowed by God.

Remember Abraham? Sarah gave Hagar to abraham. She bore ishmael. Sarah then bore Jacob. In fear of Ismael getting the birthright instead of Jacob, she caused hagar to be sent out by Abraham. Abraham gave provisions to hagar and sent them out. When Ishmael was an infant and near death, Hagar, distraught over his suffering, prepared to kill him to spare him. God had compassion and love and didnt wish that ishmael die, so he provided a well so that they had water and would survive.

Polygamy is not a lustful concept. If there is one thing God knows, im sure, is that one is enough for any of us. But it isnt about lust, its purely about lineage.

That is how I see it. Joseph didnt practice it until 1843, when the revelation was written. The revelation had been received years before.

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Well, thanks so much for the decent words Mormonator:-), after all, it was you who invited my comments to your post! As the invited guest I'll just have to make comment.

Those who are of Christ will take what He said on the topic as supreme truth. After all, He often said 'you have heard, but I say to you' on various topics.

"From the beginning it hath not been so".

Well, just how was it from the beginning then?

One man and one woman.

Joseph even changed this to fit his desires, which were certainly not of God.

Thereby I can discern Josephs qualification of speaking for God on the matter: You either believe Jesus or Joseph - you really can't do justice to Jesus if you believe Joseph instead.

And how many wives did Adam have before he came to earth instead of being created out of the dust of the earth as Moses said? (and Jesus said we should believe Moses, for Moses spoke of Him)

Even David had the morality to not marry Bathsheba with her husband still alive. Joseph married other mens wives while they were still married to them!!!!! :P

I have noticed one thing on the issue of the women Joseph was sealed to. Every time I read an article, it is different from all the others as to who he married, when and why. I have not gotten a clear and distinct idea of the "fact" that he married women whose husbands were still alive, married to them or whatever. I have seen so much inconsistency of data on this that I cant place an opinion. Any clue where a reliable source is as to the women and their circumstances.

And please, any one, dont think I would trust an anti mormon source. They are the most inconsistent.

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Of course, my personal feeling is that it just happens to be a convenient way for men to subjugate women and at the same time get as much @#^@#^& as they want in some very interesting ways from teenagers when they are 50-70 years old.

Yes. It was just a convenient way for Abraham and Jacob to subjugate their women and at the same time get as much %(*#$^ as they wanted in some very interesting ways......

Yet Jesus still found them worthy enough to be Prophets and to dwell in the Kingdom of God. Hmmmm. Interesting.

It seems that you believe God has extremely low standards for entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

On the contrary, the LDS perspective on polygamy does not lower the standard to enter God's Kingdom. The standard is kept high, as Jesus taught it:

"strait is the gate, and narrow is the way".

Abraham and Jacob were participating in Polygamy under God's authorization. No sins were committed.

According to you the gait ain't so straight and the way ain't so narrow. After all, "men who subjugate women and at the same time get as much @#^@#^& as they want" have all access to the Kingdom of Heaven.

I agree with David Whitmer (even without the BOM). Polygamy, biblically speaking, was never ordained/commanded by God. He allowed for it, provided for it, tolerated it, out of the hardness of men's hearts, just as he allowed for, provided for, and tolerated divorce and slavery.

I really don't think this has had the "slam dunk" effect you were hoping.

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Caveat? For what? The commands of Jesus are simple and easy to bear.

Elihu,

I don't know if you have any children, but I am just going to assume that you do, for the sake of this question I want to ask you.

Assuming you had a son:

If God commanded you to take a stake knife and to slay him, would you do it?

Of course I am alluding to Abraham's experience. Supposed God wanted to test your faith too.

I am not being facetious here. It's a serious question.

In case your wondering. Personally, I do not think I could do it. I do not think my faith is nearly that strong. But what about you???

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Val: Just for the record, Joseph smith got the revelation and was so abhorred by it that it took him years to reconcile himself with it. . . . Joseph didnt practice it until 1843, when the revelation was written. The revelation had been received years before.

RA: Uhm, er, Val, I hate to tell you this, but your history is off.

One of Joseph

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M: It was just a convenient way for Abraham and Jacob to subjugate their women and at the same time get as much %(*#$^ as they wanted in some very interesting ways......

RA: Agreed . . . except, of course, I notice that you deleted the bit about teenage girls, which of course, would apply to Joseph, Brigham, and other early LDS, but not to Abraham. Good place to edit.

M: Yet Jesus still found them worthy enough to be Prophets and to dwell in the Kingdom of God. Hmmmm. Interesting.

RA: Not really. Since Abraham, et al. also lied and were generally sinners

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That's a great question we could all ask ourselves Mormonator. God requires each one of us to do pretty much the same thing. We have to deny everything to find our lives in Him - Jesus said so anyway.

God has told me to do things that were absolutely against what I wanted, but I have to obey. It's in His hands anyway - every aspect of our life or any blessing we have, so yes, when He directs and then I must obey at whatever the cost.

Getting back to the topic, here's a great quote from Jesus about marriage being between two people:

Matt. 19:4-6;

"And He answered and sid to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said 'For this reason a man sahll leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.?' So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no man separate."

Jesus, as God manifest in the flesh, surely knows the intent of the Eternal Father.

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Elihu:

God requires each one of us to do pretty much the same thing. We have to deny everything to find our lives in Him

No. Wrong. God does not require us to do pretty much the same thing.

Do you really think that something God has asked you to do is tantamount to slaughtering your own son with a knife??

I'd really like to know what that was.

God has told me to do things that were absolutely against what I wanted, but I have to obey. It's in His hands anyway - every aspect of our life or any blessing we have, so yes, when He directs and then I must obey at whatever the cost.
--emphasis added

I am impressed. I doubt I would have the faith to do that. I would expect at least some sort of an explanation. Even with an explanation I doubt I could get myself to do something that horrific. Abraham did not get any explanation. Just a command. And he jumped to it.

But you realize that if you actually did something like that you would be automatically branded as a crazy, fanatical lunatic. You would be right up there next to Andrea Yates who killed all her kids. Nobody would see you as someone who was righteously obeying the command of a righteous God.

You think Joseph Smith was a bad guy?? If you were to actually do something like that, people would think even worse of you. Far far worse. You would be like Jeffery Dommor, Timmothy Mcvey, or Ted Bundy (sp). You would be a crazy freak in everyones eyes.

Why is it that God can command a person to horrificly slaughter an innocent human being like with Abraham and Isaac, but it is out of the question that God would command a person like Joseph Smith to practice polygamy

Is polygamy worse than strapping an innocent human being down and slaughtering him with a knife???

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The BOM is clear. You have yet to deal with the contradiction. Jacob 1:15 and Jacob 2:24, compared with D&C 132. The D&C indicates David took a wife that was not given by God in only one case, the BOM indicates it was a pattern and there were many.

I must assume that LDS cannot adequately address this contradiction.

It has been over 24 hours and no one has attempted to adequately address this contradiction. Therefore I have to conclude that LDS have not yet developed a defense to this contradiction. I will say that I fully expect someone to be clever enough to develop a defense that will allow faithful LDS to continue in their faith. A defense to allow this only has to be developed to the point that it remains a possibility that Joseph Smith could still be a true prophet. It does not have to be developed to a point where it is a probability. In other words, the defense doesn't have to be good or a probable correct answer. Just to the point where it is a possible correct answer. For reasons that I do not fully understand, most LDS seem to be okay with that.

sr

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The BOM is clear. You have yet to deal with the contradiction. Jacob 1:15 and Jacob 2:24, compared with D&C 132. The D&C indicates David took a wife that was not given by God in only one case, the BOM indicates it was a pattern and there were many.

I must assume that LDS cannot adequately address this contradiction.

It has been over 24 hours and no one has attempted to adequately address this contradiction. Therefore I have to conclude that LDS have not yet developed a defense to this contradiction. I will say that I fully expect someone to be clever enough to develop a defense that will allow faithful LDS to continue in their faith. A defense to allow this only has to be developed to the point that it remains a possibility that Joseph Smith could still be a true prophet. It does not have to be developed to a point where it is a probability. In other words, the defense doesn't have to be good or a probable correct answer. Just to the point where it is a possible correct answer. For reasons that I do not fully understand, most LDS seem to be okay with that.

sr

This was explained before . . that your reading is different is between you and God, as others claim that same privilege.

Fornication is cursed . . Marriage outside of God's everlasting covenant is allowed but limited to mortality . . . Marriage/sealing under the authority of the covenant by authority is blessed as eternal, assuming those sealed continue in righteousness.

When such a polygamous union is sealed by the everlasting covenant (with God's true authority), it is blessed. When such is not under completely under His authority it is cursed.

Though men may allow their desires to make excuses for accepting God's true authority and the full requirements of the covenant, God can distinguish between the righteous acts and unrighteous actions even when learned and otherwise good men cannot.

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This was explained before . . that your reading is different is between you and God, as others claim that same privilege.

Fornication is cursed . . Marriage outside of God's everlasting covenant is allowed but limited to mortality . . . Marriage/sealing under the authority of the covenant by authority is blessed as eternal, assuming those sealed continue in righteousness.

When such a polygamous union is sealed by the everlasting covenant (with God's true authority), it is blessed.  When such is not under completely under His authority it is cursed.

Though men may allow their desires to make excuses for accepting God's true authority and the full requirements of the covenant, God can distinguish between the righteous acts and unrighteous actions even when learned and otherwise good men cannot.

Your explanation does not relate to the contradiction. If you believe it does, please try to show how it does. The problem again is this; "Jacob 1:15 and Jacob 2:24, compared with D&C 132. The D&C indicates David took a wife that was not given by God in only one case, the BOM indicates it was a pattern and there were many."

sr

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Your explanation does not relate to the contradiction. If you believe it does, please try to show how it does. The problem again is this; "Jacob 1:15 and Jacob 2:24, compared with D&C 132. The D&C indicates David took a wife that was not given by God in only one case, the BOM indicates it was a pattern and there were many."

sr

J 1:15 doesn't say he took many wives outside of the covenant, it says he desired them. You are reading more into it than it says. I explained this earlier and you rejected it.

J 2:24 references both men and is not specific as to David only. Again you read more into it. We could speculate on whether David took his covenants in true faith or not-even whether he made true covenants at all--but that would just be speculation without considering more than just this verse.

I understand you infer a pattern, but such is not clearly implied or stated.

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1dc: J 1:15 doesn't say he took many wives outside of the covenant, it says he desired them. You are reading more into it than it says. I explained this earlier and you rejected it.

It should be rejected, the intent of the passage is clear. It also doesn't say he desired to take many wives "outside of the covenant". There is no inside or outside of a covenant inferred, you are adding that to the text for your convenience, which btw did not even exist at that time. This is obvious by the statement of 2:24.

1dc: J 2:24 references both men and is not specific as to David only. Again you read more into it. We could speculate on whether David took his covenants in true faith or not-even whether he made true covenants at all--but that would just be speculation without considering more than just this verse.

Yes, it references both men. I also mentioned this fact. Are you trying to indicate that this, for David, only involved Bathsheba, and Solomon made up the "many"? The fact is clear, the BOM indicates many for David as well as Solomon. The D&C indicates only one for David.

1dc: I understand you infer a pattern, but such is not clearly implied or stated.

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. If you don't see the pattern suggested by the BOM, then there is nothing I can do about it. What is really happening here, I believe, is that you are finally understanding how serious the contradiction is and attempting to compensate by offering non-related answers. It really is simple, the BOM indicates many offenses for David, the D&C indicates just one.

sr

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