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Why did Jesus revere Abraham?


The Mormonator

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Once again, the contradiction is this: Jacob 1:15 and Jacob 2:24, compared with D&C 132. The D&C indicates David took a wife that was not given by God in only one case, the BOM indicates it was a pattern and there were many.

I suppose that LDS will continue to indicate the contradiction has been addressed or "answered" and point to threads like this one.

If you have looked to the answers provided by 1dc and Ben, do you really think they are adequate?

sr

Is that what the BOM text says SR?

Look again, The Book of Mormon subtilely uses "desiring", not "taking", and that's what led to David murdering Uriah wasn't it? His unbridled desire(s). A small nuance perhaps, but nevertheless desiring is not taking.

Nighthawke: Is that what the BOM text says SR?

Yes, that is what the BOM really says:

Jacob 2: 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

"Truly had", not just desired.

Nighthawke: Look again, The Book of Mormon subtilely uses "desiring", not "taking", and that's what led to David murdering Uriah wasn't it? His unbridled desire(s). A small nuance perhaps, but nevertheless desiring is not taking.

Are you aware you appear to looking for a technicality to help you with this? The context would have the desiring and the having of many wives as the same thing.

sr

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Are you aware you appear to looking for a technicality to help you with this? The context would have the desiring and the having of many wives as the same thing.

I'm aware I'm probably too tired to make much sense and shouldn't be posting <_< but can't sleep because I have restless legs syndrome and so I'm just poking away at the keyboard until the pain passes. :P

Now let's see... there's a logical error in your "argument" up there and it is this: The Book of Mormon prophets themselves taught that there may be errors within its pages, for example Moroni writes:

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

- Title Page, The Book of Mormon

I have a very real testimony of The Book of Mormon as scripture and of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. I also know that Jesus is my Lord, my Saviour and Redeemer and that He has led me to His Church and for this I am so very thankful.

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Now let's see... there's a logical error in your "argument" up there and it is this: The Book of Mormon prophets themselves taught that there may be errors within its pages, for example Moroni writes:
And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

- Title Page, The Book of Mormon

I am taking this as an admittance that you see and understand the contradiction and the difficulty. It would appear that you would answer this contradiction by stating that there is an error in the BOM, rather than in the D&C. If so, why do you choose the error to be in the BOM? Why not the D&C?

sr

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Now let's see... there's a logical error in your "argument" up there and it is this: The Book of Mormon prophets themselves taught that there may be errors within its pages, for example Moroni writes:
And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

- Title Page, The Book of Mormon

I am taking this as an admittance that you see and understand the contradiction and the difficulty. It would appear that you would answer this contradiction by stating that there is an error in the BOM, rather than in the D&C. If so, why do you choose the error to be in the BOM? Why not the D&C?

sr

It was an admittance that I was tired and didn't want to bother doing scripture analysis. I had an Ace in my deck and I used it.

You ask "Why not the D&C?"

...Or why not the Bible?

Your question is meant to lead us down another tangential path in your neverending quest to plant doubt in our hearts; ever hopeful that "a particular train of thought can be twisted so as to end in [your] favour." (C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters, p. 14)

I'm not in the mood to wander down your tipsy path and besides, I have a second Ace:

Latter-day Saints do not believe the sriptures (ie. the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price) to be inerrant or closed; and when we read the scriptures the revealer of truth is the Holy Spirit, not some nameless hack on a message board.

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If all of the wives, except Bathsheba, mentioned in Jacob 1:15 and Jacob 2:24 were given by God, where is the wicked practice or abomination?

The exception to wives given in D&C was stated only for David. No exception was given as relates to Solomon. That however does not meant that Solomon was wrong in all of his wives for verse 38 tells us otherwise . . so, it seems the Lord is telling us that David and Solomon were wrong in some of them at some time. Let us ask ourselves why was it wrong at some times and not others? Marriage when undertaken as sacrifice for one's spouse and for God is holy. That is our ideal.

Note we study the references in Jacob 2:24 (copied below) to help understand . . the issue is always the desires or place where one's heart is turned. The practice of polygamy is not the abomination, it is the unholy desires and the turning of the heart from God to self. From a broken heart and contrite spirit to a proud heart and independent spirit. We must remember the two great commandments.

There is no contradiction if one studies and believes the Lord and asks for understanding. If there was a mistake by a writer of scripture, it was in not helping us to more easily understand. But then some would say God is wrong in letting us learn by faith. And others would say that those who do not want to understand will not. So perhaps there is no mistake at all.

Sincere best wishes for your study.

Footnotes

-----------

24a 1 Kgs. 11: 1.

1 BUT king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;

Neh. 13: 26 (25-27).

26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin.

b Deut. 17: 17 (14-17).

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

2 Sam. 5: 13.

13 And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David.

D&C 132: 39 (38-39).

39 David

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1dc, if that is the case (post on previous page to me), then how do you reconsile the fact that Joseph married the wives of others in his church while they were still married to their husbands? According to my take on the teachings of Jesus that was adultery. If you don't agree, could you furnish a scripture for my consideration?

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1dc: so, it seems the Lord is telling us that David and Solomon were wrong in some of them at some time.

It seems that the BOM is telling you one thing, while the D&C is telling you something else. That is the point, and you (and others) have not adequately addressed this.

1dc: The practice of polygamy is not the abomination, it is the unholy desires and the turning of the heart from God to self.

Your statement here is also a direct contradiction to Jacob 2:24. The things abominable were polygamy, concubinage and whoredoms.

Jacob 2: 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

You are not in the position to try and explain something so easy to understand and lead people away from what the text actually states. You don't have that influence. You don't have any more right than non-LDS to interpret what the passage means.

1dc: Sincere best wishes for your study.

Thank you.

sr

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1dc, if that is the case (post on previous page to me), then how do you reconsile the fact that Joseph married the wives of others in his church while they were still married to their husbands? According to my take on the teachings of Jesus that was adultery. If you don't agree, could you furnish a scripture for my consideration?

I will assume for the moment that your understanding of Jesus' teachings includes full knowledge of all His restored teachings contained in LDS scripture . .

1st, I dont know what the exact facts on the JS marriages are, but I'm aware some of those probably existed and will assume for your question the facts you've stated are true. 2nd, one can operate on either the premise that JS was commanded of God in all of them, or that he was not. 3rd adultery would not technically be correct for the marriage unless God did not recognize the marriage and if sexual relations did exist. Having read journals of people who were his contemporaries for nearly 15 years and who willingly sufferred greatly (far in excess of what I would be prepared to do without extreme faith in the restoration) while following JS through nearly all of the early Church's history, and in whom I believe were exceptionally decent people with their own independent spiritual confirmation, I operate on the 1st premise.

This leaves us with the question of why would God command it. 1st I accept that God is good and would know why He would do that. 2nd, I accept that while the term marriage is commonly used, it is technically a sealing of lineages and as children are also sealed to parents I don't know how the actual ordinance was done and intended. 3rd, I accept that eternal marriage is a privilege predicated on living worthily. We are all tested as to our worthiness . . some more than others. 4th, I believe the bible when it says that ultimately there will be more worthy women than worthy men and they deserve a full measure of joy.

I also recognize that JS could have beem wrong on some or of all of the sealings and his relationships, this would mean JS was a man who sinned (which I also assume) and who may or may not have repented. God is his judge as to those sins. So in that case I'd be back to what do I do about it. My testimony is not based on JS as a perfect man, but rather on all of the scriptures and doctrines as being true to Jesus Christ's Gospel in which I have faith. So I can accept the alternative if it turns out that JS was wrong on any count. But the totality of witnesses to JS life suggests the probability of serious error on speculation of his failings is far more likely than the seriousness of any failings themselves.

Now, 3rd time . . will you answered my questions about your comments on JS and how they fall withing Christ's teachings?

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1dc: so, it seems the Lord is telling us that David and Solomon were wrong in some of them at some time.

It seems that the BOM is telling you one thing, while the D&C is telling you something else. That is the point, and you (and others) have not adequately addressed this.

Therein is a difference in perhaps reading styles and goals. I do not read scripture assuming each compilation, author, or verse must stand individually in representing the full Gospel. All scripture is from God. Each verse tells us a part of what we need to understand, based on reading and studying them together and with other related scripture . . not assuming each verse always stands individually and literally. I read them together for understanding, much as we must interpret literal from figurative when comparing teachings from the OT and NT, or even between different books within the NT.

1dc: The practice of polygamy is not the abomination, it is the unholy desires and the turning of the heart from God to self.

Your statement here is also a direct contradiction to Jacob 2:24. The things abominable were polygamy, concubinage and whoredoms.

Jacob 2: 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

You are not in the position to try and explain something so easy to understand and lead people away from what the text actually states. You don't have that influence. You don't have any more right than non-LDS to interpret what the passage means.

Your reading is literal while incomplete, and does not include the LDS footnotes as consideration for your conclusion. I'm not aware of what position are you in to argue for a selective, literal text interpretation of LDS scripture while ignoring the other LDS recommended scriptures, but in any case I never suggested I have more right to an interpretation and so no such explanation is necessary on my behalf.

However, please remember it was your assertion about a contradiction in LDS scripture that we have reviewed together here in this forum. You've presented a less than full perspective for whatever reasons or motives you may have, and for which I do not ask.

You know nothing of what my position is, so you do not know what teaching rights I either have, or do not. For you to assert such before either asking or I declare it for you is as presumptive as your reading and interpretation of LDS scripture to date. But to clarify my current position for you, I've simply taught from what anyone can easily read if they honestly review the full LDS scriptural presentation at www.lds.org for themselves instead of your less than complete presentation. In any case, I have nothing but regards for your continued studies.

Thank you.

You're quite welcome.

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1dc, it is not based upon whether Joseph sinned or not, but upon whether he has given LDS doctrines which are sin (not of Jesus Christ). It is an easy matter to discern whether what Joseph taught was what Jesus taught, as we can all go to the written record of what He taught while on earth and the OT scriptures He refered to in His teachings to see if there is a pobable link of doctrine that can be Scripturally supported.

To help you see my point: If the woman was one with the other man in Gods eyes, and Joseph violated that oneness, it was adultery in the name of God - hardly a sin that God would wink at.

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Jullian,

When this subject comes up in the future, you would do well to avoid saying that the contradiction has been adequately addressed. You would do well to avoid recommending the search feature to find where it was addressed. See how Ben and 1dc have attempted this and obviously failed?

Jacob 2: 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

sr

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Jullian,

When this subject comes up in the future, you would do well to avoid saying that the contradiction has been adequately addressed. You would do well to avoid recommending the search feature to find where it was addressed. See how Ben and 1dc have attempted this and obviously failed?

Jacob 2: 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

sr

The taking of unauthonzed wives, was the sin and abomination Jacob warned of, not the marrying of additional wives given by the Lord's prophets.

Does the Doctrine and Covenants Contradict It?

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Hello all Here in this Thread,

Ben and I have debated about Jacob Chapter 2 on the Zion Lighthouse Board. Here is the URL to the thread where Ben, a few other people and I debated about the correct context of Jacob Chapter 2:

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm...picID=436.topic

I believe that Jacob Chapter 2 is a full blanket condemnation of Polygamy. The LDS Apologists who disagree with me and some other People on this quote Jacob 2:30 to try to demonstrate that the Lord God allows for the exception of allowing Plural Marriage. Here is the Scriptural Passage of Jacob 2:30:

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

I maintain that "these things" refers to the Polygamous Practices that some of the men of the Nephites were doing. Let us start at Jacob 2:23 and then let us go all the way down to Jacob 2:35. Here is Scriptural Passages Jacob 2:23-35:

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

I bolded where the words "the things" "thing," and the words "these things" occur throughout the Passage of Jacob 2:23-35. The first part where I bolded the word "the things" was in Jacob 2:23. That is referring to the Polygamous Practices that were written about concerning King David and King Solomon. The second part where I bolded was the word "thing" in Jacob 2:24. That is referring to the Polygamous Practices of David and Solomon being abominable before the Lord. The third part I bolded was the words "theses things" in Jacob 2:30. I will get back to that in a couple of sentences later. The fourth part that I bold-ed was the words "these things" in Jacob 2:34. The words "these things" in Jacob 2:34 refer to the Polygamous sins that some of the Nephite men ended up doing which, they should Not have done. Now going back to Jacob 2:30. The words "these things" in Jacob 2:30, must be referring to the sins of Polygamy since the word "the things" "thing," and the words "these things" all referred to the sins associated with Polygamy throughout Jacob 2:23-35.

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Jullian,

When this subject comes up in the future, you would do well to avoid saying that the contradiction has been adequately addressed. You would do well to avoid recommending the search feature to find where it was addressed. See how Ben and 1dc have attempted this and obviously failed? 

Jacob 2: 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

sr

The taking of unauthonzed wives, was the sin and abomination Jacob warned of, not the marrying of additional wives given by the Lord's prophets.

Does the Doctrine and Covenants Contradict It?

Nighthawke: The taking of unauthonzed wives, was the sin and abomination Jacob warned of, not the marrying of additional wives given by the Lord's prophets.

It doesn't matter if it refers to authorized or unauthorized wives. Either would still contradict the D&C. The fact is, whether authorized or unauthorized, there were many wives and concubines that were an abomination, according to the BOM. In contrast, the D&C indicates only one case that was an abomination, all others were justified and in nothing did they do wrong.

sr

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Jullian,

When this subject comes up in the future, you would do well to avoid saying that the contradiction has been adequately addressed. You would do well to avoid recommending the search feature to find where it was addressed. See how Ben and 1dc have attempted this and obviously failed?

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A reminder: the reports in the books of Kings and Chronicles are likely to have a Davidic bent to them. 1 Samuel certainly does not, and may reflect the attitude of those in the Northern Kingdom (from which the Lehites descended) via the Brass Plates of Laban. I remind all of: 1 Sam. 8:7-18, where YHWH vis Samuel warns Israel of the practical and inevitable effect of appointment of a king, which YHWH says is a rejectment of Him as their true King (verses 7-9). Is this not the tenor of what Nephi's baby brother was getting at with the polygamy thing?

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Brackite -

What limits the antecedent of "thing" in your interpretation? Could we use the instance of "thing" in verse 7 as the antecedent? Your reading removes "these things" from any natural reading of an antecedent.

As an aside, a quick quote from something I was reading recently for USU78:

We know that Samuel is accurate because it is nothing but lies.
(Bruce Halpern in his book David's Secret Demons: Messiah, Murderer, Traitor, King, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2001, p. 100)

Ben

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Hi Ben,

Brackite -

What limits the antecedent of "thing" in your interpretation? Could we use the instance of "thing" in verse 7 as the antecedent? Your reading removes "these things" from any natural reading of an antecedent.

I don't think so. Anyway not only do we have the words these "things pointing" out in Jacob 2:30 about what should be the correct interpretation of Jacob 2:30, but we also have the word "command" in Jacob 2:30. Here are the Scriptural Passages of Jacob 2:29-35; and 3:6:

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father -- that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

6 And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people.

I bolded where the words

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Nighthawke: Am I understanding you correctly sr, are you saying there is no contradiction then between authorized or unauthorized wives?

Apparently you are not understanding something. I said the contradiction with the D&C would exist in either case.

Nighthawke:

"Either would still contradict the D&C." Um, I don't think so: D&C 132:39 David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord

Um, then you should offer a reason why there would not be a contradiction rather than offer something that supports a contradiction.

Where is the abomination? The D&C indicates David did not sin except in the case of Uriah. So, where is the abomination of Jacob 2:24?

sr

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Nighthawke: Am I understanding you correctly sr, are you saying there is no contradiction then between authorized or unauthorized wives?

Apparently you are not understanding something. I said the contradiction with the D&C would exist in either case.

Nighthawke:

"Either would still contradict the D&C." Um, I don't think so: D&C 132:39 David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord

Um, then you should offer a reason why there would not be a contradiction rather than offer something that supports a contradiction.

Where is the abomination? The D&C indicates David did not sin except in the case of Uriah. So, where is the abomination of Jacob 2:24?

sr

I though it was in the taking of unauthorized wives.

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I though it was in the taking of unauthorized wives.

That is not what the text states. It clearly states the abomination was in having many wives and concubines.

If it were referring to any unauthorized wives, this would contradict the D&C which states that there was only one case in which David sinned.

If it were referring to authorized wives, this would contradict the D&C which states that there was only one case in which David sinned.

sr

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I though it was in the taking of unauthorized wives.

That is not what the text states. It clearly states the abomination was in having many wives and concubines.

desiring/taking = unauthorized

receiving/commanded/given by God or authorized priesthood with the keys = authorized

BoM

-----

544 AD - Jacob 1

"people . . began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son"

544-421 AD Jacob 2

"This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."

D&C

-----

1831-1843 AD Section 132

"Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation . .

David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

David

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