Predestination. You Asked For It Here It Is.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't believe being deceived is a good thing, but I believe that it brought about God's plan, which I believe was a good plan and not an inferior plan.  So in that regard, I have a hard time saying that bring about God's good plan was a bad thing.

 

Do you believe that satan's influence and Eve's deception thwarted God's plans and forced Him to institute an inferior one for His creations?

I would not even put in the "inferior part. It would seem that a logical conclusion is that Satan at the very least thwarted God's original plan. And God had to come up with a second plan. But I see were you are coming from when you say inferior. Becuase after all the Garden was paradise and we were all going to live in the garden for ever with God but Eve muffed it up. Now we have to go through pain and suffering and a separation from God. I can see no other logical conclusion. Either it was part of the plan or it wasn't. And I am not big for either/or scenarios. But this is the realitly if we choose to view that Eve taking the fruit was not part of the plan.

 

Of crouse the strongest evidence is that it was all part of the plan besides Jesus being forordainded before the foundations of the world to be the Savior I would say is that God allowed Satan into the garden. That right there tells me the fall was part of the plan. Why let Satan in to "thwart" the plan if it was not part of it from the get go. 

[bluebell]

First, you'll notice that it's not I who is calling these things a curse. It is God.

 

I think this is one of those instances where your beliefs are so ingrained into you that you haven't even noticed that it actually is you who is calling most of these things a curse.   Vance has already brought it up but the only things that God cursed after the fall was the ground and the serpent. 

 

Second, we all still die. The negative consequences are still with us.

 

But we are promised resurrection, so death has no sting, no power over us.

 

The fact that Adam and Eve were banished was a negative, not a good thing.

 

I agree.  Banishment from the presence of God is part of the physical and spiritual deaths which I spoke about.

 

God knew all things the moment he decided to create us. There were no surprises to him. However, the fact that Eve was deceived is a negative thing, as you agreed. Hence, the fall wasn't a good thing, but a negative thing because it separated us from God, and cursed us and the Earth.

 

I did agree that being deceived was a negative thing, but that does not mean that the Fall was a negative thing.  The bible explicitly teaches that Adam was not deceived so we cannot use deception as the measuring stick for whether or not the Fall was a positive or a negative for God's creation.

 

And the bible says that God cursed the ground, it does not say that He cursed us.

 

Like I said when we first started down this path. What the BoM states appears to me to be antithetical to the what the Bible says. The fall wasn't a good thing, it was a curse on the whole Universe (All creation groans as a result).

 

I hear you, and I agree that you keep saying that.  My only point is that you have failed to support your opinions with any evidences from the Bible.  

 

More than once you have stated that the bible/God said or did something that's not actually in the bible.   We all have our own beliefs and that's fine, but I think it's fair, when you attempt to tell me that my beliefs are the opposite of what is taught in the bible, to point out the many weaknesses of that statement.

[bluebell]

I would not even put in the "inferior part. It would seem that a logical conclusion is that Satan at the very least thwarted God's original plan. And God had to come up with a second plan. But I see were you are coming from when you say inferior. Becuase after all the Garden was paradise and we were all going to live in the garden for ever with God but Eve muffed it up. Now we have to go through pain and suffering and a separation from God. I can see no other logical conclusion. Either it was part of the plan or it wasn't. And I am not big for either/or scenarios. But this is the realitly if we choose to view that Eve taking the fruit was not part of the plan.

 

Of crouse the strongest evidence is that it was all part of the plan besides Jesus being forordainded before the foundations of the world to be the Savior I would say is that God allowed Satan into the garden. That right there tells me the fall was part of the plan. Why let Satan in to "thwart" the plan if it was not part of it from the get go. 

 

I used the term 'inferior' because that is how danielwoods seems to view our current temporal course compared to what 'would have been' had the Fall never occurred.  Unfortunately, he didn't answer my question on whether or not he believes that satan thwarted God's 'best' plan and forced Him to use an 'inferior' one.

[danielwoods]

This is a shorter answer. I'm in the middle of moving.

I moved this summer, and am finally starting to relax a little... tiring.

 

No not necessarily. Remember that LDS do not view the Fall as a complete negative. But a necessary step in order to fulfill all of God's purposes. For LDS all that God does has greater purpose to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." After all it has to be one of the very few cursings (that was to the earth itself, PS) that is described as for their sake. So I wouldn't describe it as an evil decision....at least the partaking of the fruit in and of itself. 

 

 

Not the most complete thoughts, but I don't have time to say much more. 

 

With luv,

BD

I'm at a quandary here. A choice (made by A&E) which resulted in death, judgement, etc is what? Good or bad?

In the beginning you argued that they weren't capable of comprehending good (moral) so they did "no good". So, the flip side would also be true if that's the case, correct? That they weren't able to comprehend moral evil and not able do evil either. Yet, the basis for all judgment and curses are because, "for the sake of" these decisions that you appear to claim they didn't comprehend.

Is that just? To condemn someone that doesn't fully comprehend what they are doing?

The fact that God has a plan is irrelevant to the question because the question is aimed at A&E specifically.

[Vance]

I'm at a quandary here. A choice (made by A&E) which resulted in death, judgement, etc is what? Good or bad?

The judging and condemning by evil men which resulted in the death of Christ, etc is what?  Good or bad? 

[Vance]

In the beginning you argued that they weren't capable of comprehending good (moral) so they did "no good". So, the flip side would also be true if that's the case, correct? That they weren't able to comprehend moral evil and not able do evil either. Yet, the basis for all judgment and curses are because, "for the sake of" these decisions that you appear to claim they didn't comprehend.

Is that just? To condemn someone that doesn't fully comprehend what they are doing?

Is it just that children that play in the street get run over?

 

Is it just that people die in plane crashes, earthquakes, tidal waves?

[danielwoods]

So, dealing with things "through the grace and power of God" is a negative?

 

Please provide a reference for the "We are cursed as a result of the fall." Chapter and verse please.

 

Since being "banished" was obviously part of God's plan, how can it be a negative?

Let's see. 1 Cor. 15:22, "22 For as in Adam all die," OR Rom. 5:12, "12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people"

Death was the judgement or curse. The day you eat of it you will die. Which isn't a blessing, but a curse.

How can being banished be a negative? The same way that being punished is a negative.

Is it God's plan for us to sin?

[Vance]

Let's see. 1 Cor. 15:22, "22 For as in Adam all die," OR Rom. 5:12, "12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people"

So, you can't provide a verse that shows we are cursed as a result of the fall.

 

You have shown that death is a consequents of sin.  And that sin came into the world as a result of the fall.  But have yet to show that we are cursed as a result of the fall.

 

 

Death was the judgement or curse. The day you eat of it you will die. Which isn't a blessing, but a curse.

How can being banished be a negative? The same way that being punished is a negative.

Is it God's plan for us to sin?

Blah blah blah.  Still waiting for a reference that shows we are cursed as a result of the fall. 

 

You can save yourself some time looking for something that isn't there and just admit that there isn't one, OR you can keep looking in vain.

[Stone holm]

I don't believe being deceived is a good thing, but I believe that it brought about God's plan, which I believe was a good plan and not an inferior plan.  So in that regard, I have a hard time saying that bring about God's good plan was a bad thing.

 

Do you believe that satan's influence and Eve's deception thwarted God's plans and forced Him to institute an inferior one for His creations?

 

There are, are there not, at least a couple times when people according to the plan are sent straight into what appears to be a disaster with the assistance of Satan, but which appear to be essential disasters for the Plan of Salvation.   Adam and Eve had to eat of the fruit, and Christ had to die on the cross.  Does anyone else sometimes wonder if God behaves like Harry Seldon a bit at times, kind of playing Satan like a carom on a board?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is it God's plan for us to sin?

Before I answer, which I will, I want to know what you think. I am betting you think it was not God's plan. If that is the case there are serious ramification for beliving such. One of those would be that acknowledgement that Satan thwarted God's plan and God needed to move to plan B or a back up plan.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, you can't provide a verse that shows we are cursed as a result of the fall.

 

You have shown that death is a consequents of sin.  And that sin came into the world as a result of the fall.  But have yet to show that we are cursed as a result of the fall.

 

 

Blah blah blah.  Still waiting for a reference that shows we are cursed as a result of the fall. 

 

You can save yourself some time looking for something that isn't there and just admit that there isn't one, OR you can keep looking in vain.

Vance I don't do this very often but can you tone it down a bit?

[bluebell]

There are, are there not, at least a couple times when people according to the plan are sent straight into what appears to be a disaster with the assistance of Satan, but which appear to be essential disasters for the Plan of Salvation.   Adam and Eve had to eat of the fruit, and Christ had to die on the cross.  Does anyone else sometimes wonder if God behaves like Harry Seldon a bit at times, kind of playing Satan like a carom on a board?

 

I think that God behaves like a parent who knows the bigger picture, and that we are typical children who complain about the day to day stuff because the bigger picture is usually lost on us. 

[Vance]

Vance I don't do this very often but can you tone it down a bit?

I will try.  I just don't have much patience with claims about what is Biblical that can't actually be supported by the text.  And I don't like letting such claims go unchallenged.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Vance

[danielwoods]

 

I think this is one of those instances where your beliefs are so ingrained into you that you haven't even noticed that it actually is you who is calling most of these things a curse.   Vance has already brought it up but the only things that God cursed after the fall was the ground and the serpent. 

 

 

But we are promised resurrection, so death has no sting, no power over us.

 

 

I agree.  Banishment from the presence of God is part of the physical and spiritual deaths which I spoke about.

 

 

I did agree that being deceived was a negative thing, but that does not mean that the Fall was a negative thing.  The bible explicitly teaches that Adam was not deceived so we cannot use deception as the measuring stick for whether or not the Fall was a positive or a negative for God's creation.

 

And the bible says that God cursed the ground, it does not say that He cursed us.

 

 

I hear you, and I agree that you keep saying that.  My only point is that you have failed to support your opinions with any evidences from the Bible.  

 

More than once you have stated that the bible/God said or did something that's not actually in the bible.   We all have our own beliefs and that's fine, but I think it's fair, when you attempt to tell me that my beliefs are the opposite of what is taught in the bible, to point out the many weaknesses of that statement.

 

My goal is to not beat the same dead horse. One way I do that is to try and simplify things to get to the most basic points of our differences. I'm ok with differences, I'm just interested to know where they are, and why. 

 

The claim that I hear from the LDS is that the fall was a good thing. 

 

I say, ok, look at this negative consequence, and you point out that God is our redeemer. 

 

I guess my simplification of it is this. 

 

If the fall is seen as a good thing, then stealing money from a store must also be good, as it also incurs a debt that has to be paid. 

 

The point is that saying that the fall was good because God swooped in and saved us, is missing the point. The point is, we put ourselves in this position (of needing to be saved) and that isn't good. 

[danielwoods]

I used the term 'inferior' because that is how danielwoods seems to view our current temporal course compared to what 'would have been' had the Fall never occurred.  Unfortunately, he didn't answer my question on whether or not he believes that satan thwarted God's 'best' plan and forced Him to use an 'inferior' one.

 

 

Before I answer, which I will, I want to know what you think. I am betting you think it was not God's plan. If that is the case there are serious ramification for beliving such. One of those would be that acknowledgement that Satan thwarted God's plan and God needed to move to plan B or a back up plan.

 

The question of did Satan thwart God's plan (in my view). 

 

No. In reality there is no "plan" as you and I make plans. OR as the LDS teach that there were two competing plans. Nope. No plan in that sense. Why is that? 

 

God is all knowing, so the moment he decided to create us (free-willed beings), he knew in that moment all of what would happen (down to every finite little detail of every nano second), and how it would play out. In my view Satan is a created being, similar to us (created free willed beings) Unlike Jesus/God/Spirit who are not created, but are the only infinite, all knowing, all powerful being. 

 

So the supposed "fight" between Satan and his followers and God is really God allowing Satan to do his thing for a while. When God is done allowing it, it will be done. It's sort of similar to a Father playing with a bunch of 2 year olds. The 2 year olds might think they are getting the upper hand in the fight, and "thwarting" the Fathers plan, and they might tell each other this. But the reality is the Father is in control the whole time and at no time is out of control. In essence, Satan is infinitely outmatched on every level.

 

So, the plan, if you want to call it that, is exactly how God expected it to work out, and is reaching his ultimate goal in the end. 

[kassie]

I'm wondering about some things. It appears there are several  basic positions here.

 

1)  The Fall had to take place, for without it, there would have been no chance for a Savior to come and no chance for man to obtain free agency. 

 

Doctrines of Salvation 1:121; “By many he (Adam)  has been severely criticized because of his fall, but Latter-day Saints, through modern revelation, have learned that such was necessary in order that man should have his agency and, through the various vicissitudes he has to pass, receive a knowledge of both good and evil, without which it would be impossible for him to gain the exaltation prepared for him." 

 

There is  also the verse 

 

 

Moses 5:11; “And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”

 

To those who do not accept "The Quad" of course, their response to this verse in Moses would most likely be something along the lines of "Since when do we praise God when we sin?"  

 

2)  Another position seems to be that the Fall was a direct result of choices Adam and Eve made on their own, when they were tempted by Satan. And that BECAUSE of that choice that they made of their own volition, Heavenly Father had to send a Savior after the fact. Or as someone called it, "A Back Up Plan." The problem with this viewpoint is that it implies God "tempted" Adam and Eve for no reason. And James says:

 

James 1:13; “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man.”

 

Well, if He doesn't tempt any man, then was he really "tempting" Adam and Eve in the garden? Hmmmm. Maybe He was TESTING them. He already had the plan. He already knew exactly what would happen. He did it so that they could "see" what was necessary.  My opinions.

Clarification requested if I am missing something!!!!!

[Vance]

The question of did Satan thwart God's plan (in my view). 

 

No. In reality there is no "plan" as you and I make plans. OR as the LDS teach that there were two competing plans. Nope. No plan in that sense. Why is that? 

This is just anti-LDS drivel.

God is all knowing, so the moment he decided to create us (free-willed beings), he knew in that moment all of what would happen (down to every finite little detail of every nano second), and how it would play out. In my view Satan is a created being, similar to us (created free willed beings) Unlike Jesus/God/Spirit who are not created, but are the only infinite, all knowing, all powerful being. 

This is just a repeat of the same tripe.  BTW did you know that the Bible tells us that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God", and "the firstborn of every creature", which sure indicates that he was "created", at least according to your creator/creature false dichotomy.

 

So the supposed "fight" between Satan and his followers and God is really God allowing Satan to do his thing for a while. When God is done allowing it, it will be done. It's sort of similar to a Father playing with a bunch of 2 year olds. The 2 year olds might think they are getting the upper hand in the fight, and "thwarting" the Fathers plan, and they might tell each other this. But the reality is the Father is in control the whole time and at no time is out of control. In essence, Satan is infinitely outmatched on every level.

And this is totally in line with the LDS position.

 

 

So, the plan, if you want to call it that, is exactly how God expected it to work out, and is reaching his ultimate goal in the end. 

As well as in the LDS position.  God's Plan, IS working out just has He planned it and it is reaching his ultimate goal. 

 

So, you really haven't provided any basis for the plan not really being a plan, other than YOU don't want to admit that it is a plan because the LDS say there was a plan.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Vance

[danielwoods]

This is just anti-LDS drivel.

This is just a repeat of the same tripe.  BTW did you know that the Bible tells us that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God", and "the firstborn of every creature", which sure indicates that he was "created", at least according to your creator/creature false dichotomy.

 

And this is totally in line with the LDS position.

 

 

As well as in the LDS position.  God's Plan, IS working out just has He planned it and it is reaching his ultimate goal. 

 

So, you really haven't provided any basis for the plan not really being a plan, other than YOU don't want to admit that it is a plan because the LDS say there was a plan.

 

I answered the question as to what my view is. 

 

The difference so far as I have seen is that the LDS claim that the fall was a good and necessary thing. In as much as we might end up with similar conclusions, I disagree that it was good or necessary. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I answered the question as to what my view is. 

 I disagree that it was good or necessary. 

With that there comes some baggage that it seems you are unwilling to admit to. I mean I am not going to force you to acknowledge it. And I doubt me repeating it will change things.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

So, the plan, if you want to call it that, is exactly how God expected it to work out, and is reaching his ultimate goal in the end. 

I cannot accpet that there was not a plan. That doesn't even make sense. I mean if there is no plan what is the point to us? And this gets back to the notion that God was bored and lacked something so he created us to share in his love, because that would do what for God? I just see no reason to create us if there was no plan. What is the purpose of this life? To share in God's love? Why? What is the point in that? Seriously. I really can't see any value in creating a thing just so it can share your love.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is it God's plan for us to sin?

Yes it is part of the plan for us to Sin. That was the whole point in having a Savoir. It provided a way for us to return to God. What is the point of fore ordaining a Savoir before the creation of this world (and Adam and Eve) of there was nothing that we were going to need saving from? 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I will try.  I just don't have much patience with claims about what is Biblical that can't actually be supported by the text.  And I don't like letting such claims go unchallenged.

I understand. I only bring it up because so far all or most (I only say most as I am leaving it open that some may have been rude) is that this has been a respectful discussion. If this were Paul D we were dealing with be rude to that guy he deserves no respect.

[Vance]

The difference so far as I have seen is that the LDS claim that the fall was a good and necessary thing. In as much as we might end up with similar conclusions, I disagree that it was good or necessary. 

That is fair. 

[danielwoods]

I cannot accpet that there was not a plan. That doesn't even make sense. I mean if there is no plan what is the point to us? And this gets back to the notion that God was bored and lacked something so he created us to share in his love, because that would do what for God? I just see no reason to create us if there was no plan. What is the purpose of this life? To share in God's love? Why? What is the point in that? Seriously. I really can't see any value in creating a thing just so it can share your love.

Well, like I said, call it a plan if you want. If that makes it sound better. The reason I don't really call it a plan per se is because it's not like a plan that we make. 

 

We make plans and hope things turn out this way or that. He makes decisions, and knows the outcome as if they already occurred, because he is all knowing. 

 

The greater question you posed is why share his love? What is the point in that? "Because that would do what for God?"

 

If you're a parent, you will have at least a glimpse into why he wanted to share his love with us. Being a parent changes our outlook on life, like no other life event. As a parent, we want the best for our children. The desire to share the best of what we have experienced with them is a self-less love, that parents have. 

 

What does it do for God? It gives him glory. He's in need of nothing, being infinite, so it's not out of need that he desires to share, but out of an understanding that shared love increases it's dynamic. 

 

For example. Why is it fun for us to watch a child explore it's new world? We already know what the world looks like, however when we watch them we see the wonder in their eyes, as they discover for themselves this wonderful world. I think this is a small glimpse of what is happening with God. He get's to enjoy us, enjoying his love and life he's created. If that makes sense. Ravi Zacharizus says that there's only one thing that will create wonder in the heart of a grown man/woman. And that is an infinite God. 

[bluebell]

My goal is to not beat the same dead horse. One way I do that is to try and simplify things to get to the most basic points of our differences. I'm ok with differences, I'm just interested to know where they are, and why. 

 

The claim that I hear from the LDS is that the fall was a good thing. 

 

I say, ok, look at this negative consequence, and you point out that God is our redeemer. 

 

I guess my simplification of it is this. 

 

If the fall is seen as a good thing, then stealing money from a store must also be good, as it also incurs a debt that has to be paid. 

 

The point is that saying that the fall was good because God swooped in and saved us, is missing the point. The point is, we put ourselves in this position (of needing to be saved) and that isn't good. 

I hear you.

 

My point is that the Fall was absolutely necessary for our salvation (as in, it was necessary for Adam and Eve to fall so that Eve could have children, and so that we could learn knowledge of good and evil and learn to choose the good), and since salvation is good, so must the fall be considered good.