New Piece On Interpreter Web Site: "The Spectacles, The Stone, The Hat, And The Book"

[Wiki Wonka]

On what do you base your statement that Emma observed the stone in the hat translation method prior to the loss of the 116 pages? I'm not saying she didn't, but does any source actually say this?

Good question. She definitely states that she saw the stone in the hat. I believe that the time period is simply inferred since Oliver is believed to have been the only scribe after the resumption of translation. I have always been under the impression that it was prior to the loss of the 116 pages.

Here is what Emma said:

Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim, and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly, black, but was rather a dark color.

The "Spectacles" article doesn't take a position on when Emma assisted with the translation, however, she did say this:

In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.

That seems to imply that she acted as scribe after the loss of the 116 pages.

WW

[tagriffy]

Yes, since Emma observed the stone in the hat translation method, and this was prior to the loss of the 116 pages, it does raise the possibility that the curtain was exclusively for Martin's benefit. It seems that Martin is the source of all of the "you will die if you view the plates" statements that made their way into various newspaper accounts.

WW

If we accept this possibility, where does that take us? Does it help us understand the translation method any better? (My first thought is no, not really). Does it help us understand Martin any better? Joseph? The loss of the 116 pages?

What think ye?

[Wiki Wonka]

If we accept this possibility, where does that take us? Does it help us understand the translation method any better? (My first thought is no, not really). Does it help us understand Martin any better? Joseph? The loss of the 116 pages?

What think ye?

I don't think that it says anything about the method. Knowing whether Emma assisted before or after the loss of the pages doesn't seem to me that it would affect the overall process very much. Emma was clearly aware of the distinction between the Nephite interpreters and the stone, and she says that she transcribed while Joseph used the stone, but the mechanism appears to be the same as that reported by other witnesses to the process.

Martin Harris, however, was known to be pretty superstitious. He believed that he would incur the wrath of God if he viewed the plates (or perhaps the Nephite interpreters). I would assume that the curtain was used in the beginning to shield the plates and the Nephite instruments from view, but if Joseph began using the hat early on, and kept the plates covered, the curtain may have remained there more for shielding Martin from accidentally glimpsing the process - it may even have remained there at Martin's insistence (I have no source to support that bit of speculation). A critical view, of course, would be that Joseph was hiding a lack of artifacts.

It is interesting that Martin was bold enough to swap out the seer stone at one point. Apparently, he wasn't afraid of seeing that.

WW

[Nevo]

Good question. She definitely states that she saw the stone in the hat. I believe that the time period is simply inferred since Oliver is believed to have been the only scribe after the resumption of translation.

Bushman mentions Emma translating after the plates were returned, following the loss of the 116 pages: "Lucy Smith said that Joseph received the interpreters again on September 22, 1828, and he and Emma did a little translating, but the need to prepare for winter intervened" (Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 70). Lucy, for her part, is apparently quoting Joseph in this section of her manuscript: "I then continued <said> Joseph my suplications to God without cessation that his mercy might again be exercised towards me and on the 22 of september I had the joy and satisfacton of again receiving the record <urim and Thummin> into my possession and I have commenced translating and Emma writes for me now" (Anderson, ed., Lucy's Book, 428).

On the larger issue of the translation methods used, I favor the view that Joseph only used the Nephite interpreters for the 116 pages, and then only some of the time. And when Joseph did use the Nephite interpreters, the stones were probably detached from their frames and placed in his hat for most of that time. That is how Mark Ashurst-McGee reads the sources and I find his evidence and arguments persuasive. In other words, I think Joseph used the head-in-the-hat method for all of the translation of our current Book of Mormon and probably for a good deal of the translation of the 116 pages too.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Nevo

[tagriffy]

I don't think that it says anything about the method. Knowing whether Emma assisted before or after the loss of the pages doesn't seem to me that it would affect the overall process very much. Emma was clearly aware of the distinction between the Nephite interpreters and the stone, and she says that she transcribed while Joseph used the stone, but the mechanism appears to be the same as that reported by other witnesses to the process.

Martin Harris, however, was known to be pretty superstitious. He believed that he would incur the wrath of God if he viewed the plates (or perhaps the Nephite interpreters). I would assume that the curtain was used in the beginning to shield the plates and the Nephite instruments from view, but if Joseph began using the hat early on, and kept the plates covered, the curtain may have remained there more for shielding Martin from accidentally glimpsing the process - it may even have remained there at Martin's insistence (I have no source to support that bit of speculation). A critical view, of course, would be that Joseph was hiding a lack of artifacts.

It is interesting that Martin was bold enough to swap out the seer stone at one point. Apparently, he wasn't afraid of seeing that.

WW

Bushman mentions Emma translating after the plates were returned, following the loss of the 116 pages: "Lucy Smith said that Joseph received the interpreters again on September 22, 1828, and he and Emma did a little translating, but the need to prepare for winter intervened" (Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 70). Lucy, for her part, is apparently quoting Joseph in this section of her manuscript: "I then continued <said> Joseph my suplications to God without cessation that his mercy might again be exercised towards me and on the 22 of september I had the joy and satisfacton of again receiving the record <urim and Thummin> into my possession and I have commenced translating and Emma writes for me now" (Anderson, ed., Lucy's Book, 428).

On the larger issue of the translation methods used, I favor the view that Joseph only used the Nephite interpreters for the 116 pages, and then only some of the time. And when Joseph did use the Nephite interpreters, the stones were probably detached from their frames and placed in his hat for most of that time. That is how Mark Ashurst-McGee reads the sources and I find his evidence and arguments persuasive. In other words, I think Joseph used the head-in-the-hat method for all of the translation of our current Book of Mormon and probably for a good deal of the translation of the 116 pages too.

Now we have a bit of new information. How much weight should we give Lucy's statement. It seems unlikely Joseph would have used the term "Urim and Thummim" at that date, and other sources say the interpreters were not returned. Do we have any confirming evidence Emma served as scribe once Joseph received the plates again? As I remember the original manuscript for Mosiah is no longer extant, and that is where Emma's writing could be identified.

We probably should hold any further thoughts about the role of the curtain until we can get Emma's role settled. JS-H 66-67 does note Oliver didn't arrive on the scene until April 1829. According to D&C 5:30, he was translating again as of March 1829. Can we nail this down any further?

[Wiki Wonka]

Now we have a bit of new information. How much weight should we give Lucy's statement. It seems unlikely Joseph would have used the term "Urim and Thummim" at that date, and other sources say the interpreters were not returned. Do we have any confirming evidence Emma served as scribe once Joseph received the plates again? As I remember the original manuscript for Mosiah is no longer extant, and that is where Emma's writing could be identified.

We probably should hold any further thoughts about the role of the curtain until we can get Emma's role settled. JS-H 66-67 does note Oliver didn't arrive on the scene until April 1829. According to D&C 5:30, he was translating again as of March 1829. Can we nail this down any further?

Based on Lucy's quote, it sounds like Emma was scribe immediately after the resumption of translation, before Oliver showed up. I am not immediately aware of any other sources which confirm that.

Either Joseph was using his own stone in the hat (if the Nephite interpreters were not returned), or he was using the Nephite interpreters in the hat (if they were returned). I don't think that there is enough data to conclude one way or the other whether or not they were returned. David Whitmer and Emma seem to believe that the Nephite instrument was not returned, but I am not sure how they would know that unless Joseph specifically told them so, and we don't seem to have a statement from Joseph himself on the matter (That portion of Lucy's manuscript was rewritten as if it were Joseph's own words, but it originally was written in the third person. The addition of the term "Urim and Thummim" was a later modification as well. There is a section of the "Spectacles" article that talks about those changes.)

[tagriffy]

Based on Lucy's quote, it sounds like Emma was scribe immediately after the resumption of translation, before Oliver showed up. I am not immediately aware of any other sources which confirm that.

Either Joseph was using his own stone in the hat (if the Nephite interpreters were not returned), or he was using the Nephite interpreters in the hat (if they were returned). I don't think that there is enough data to conclude one way or the other whether or not they were returned. David Whitmer and Emma seem to believe that the Nephite instrument was not returned, but I am not sure how they would know that unless Joseph specifically told them so, and we don't seem to have a statement from Joseph himself on the matter (That portion of Lucy's manuscript was rewritten as if it were Joseph's own words, but it originally was written in the third person. The addition of the term "Urim and Thummim" was a later modification as well. There is a section of the "Spectacles" article that talks about those changes.)

So where does that get us? Was Lucy misremembering? Or did Emma work as Joseph's scribe both before and after the 116 pages were lost? If Emma never worked on the 116 pages, what does that say about the possibility the curtain was mainly or solely for Martin's benefit? Weren't the interpreters otherwise exhibited freely? I need to go back to the article.

[tagriffy]

I'm seeing from the article that the interpreters may not have been openly displayed. However due to possible conflation of the interpreters with the seer stone, they may well have been. I found Lucy's description in Biographical Sketches, p. 101. I don't know if this is in the manuscript but she describes both seeing and handling the spectacles, describing them in the same manner as the hostile 1840 account mentioned in the article p. 139.

I think I'm thoroughly confused now.

[Nevo]

Based on Lucy's quote, it sounds like Emma was scribe immediately after the resumption of translation, before Oliver showed up. I am not immediately aware of any other sources which confirm that.

Joseph's 1832 history mentions that Emma wrote for him prior to Oliver's arrival: "the Plates was taken from me by the power of God and I was not able to obtain them for a season and it came to pass afte[r] much humility and affliction of Soul I obtained them again when Lord appeared unto a young man by the name of Oliver Cowd[e]ry and shewed unto him the plates in a vision and also the truth of the work and what the Lord was about to do through me his unworthy Servant therefore he was desiorous to come and write for me and to translate now my wife had writen some for me to translate and also my Brothr Samuel H Smith but we had become reduced in property and my wives father was about to turn me out of doores I & I had not where to go and I cried unto the Lord that he would provide for me to accomplish the work whereunto he had commanded me" (source).

Although Bushman places Emma's work as a scribe in the fall of 1828, I notice that John Welch dates it to the following spring [March 1829], when Joseph was instructed to translate "a few more pages" and then "stop for a season" (D&C 5:30; see John W. Welch, "The Miraculous Translation of the Book of Mormon," in Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820–1844, ed. John W. Welch [Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2005], 90). Welch is probably correct, as Joseph noted later that "I did not however go immediately to translating [after receiving back the plates], but went to laboring with my hands upon a small farm which I had purchased of my wife’s father, in order to provide for my family" (source). David Whitmer seems to indicate that Emma occasionally wrote in Fayette as well: "Emma, Joseph's wife, came to my father's house a short time after Joseph and Oliver came, and she wrote a little of the translation, my brother Christian wrote some, but Oliver wrote the greater portion of it" (David Whitmer interview with James H. Hart [1884], in Welch, "Miraculous Translation," 152).

David Whitmer and Emma seem to believe that the Nephite instrument was not returned, but I am not sure how they would know that unless Joseph specifically told them so, and we don't seem to have a statement from Joseph himself on the matter.

Perhaps you are right that David Whitmer and Emma were not in a position to know for certain whether the Nephite interpreters were returned, but they apparently did not see them used in the translation they observed in 1829. David was shown them by the angel when he saw the gold plates, but he does not describe Joseph using them during the portion of the translation that he witnessed. Both Emma and David were able to observe the object that Joseph routinely placed in his hat during this period and they both describe it as Joseph's brown seer stone.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Nevo

[Wiki Wonka]

Joseph's 1832 history mentions that Emma wrote for him prior to Oliver's arrival: "the Plates was taken from me by the power of God and I was not able to obtain them for a season and it came to pass afte[r] much humility and affliction of Soul I obtained them again when Lord appeared unto a young man by the name of Oliver Cowd[e]ry and shewed unto him the plates in a vision and also the truth of the work and what the Lord was about to do through me his unworthy Servant therefore he was desiorous to come and write for me and to translate now my wife had writen some for me to translate and also my Brothr Samuel H Smith but we had become reduced in property and my wives father was about to turn me out of doores I & I had not where to go and I cried unto the Lord that he would provide for me to accomplish the work whereunto he had commanded me" (source).

Although Bushman places Emma's work as a scribe in the fall of 1828, I notice that John Welch dates it to the following spring [March 1829], when Joseph was instructed to translate "a few more pages" and then "stop for a season" (D&C 5:30; see John W. Welch, "The Miraculous Translation of the Book of Mormon," in Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820–1844, ed. John W. Welch [Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2005], 90). Welch is probably correct, as Joseph noted later that "I did not however go immediately to translating [after receiving back the plates], but went to laboring with my hands upon a small farm which I had purchased of my wife’s father, in order to provide for my family" (source). David Whitmer seems to indicate that Emma occasionally wrote in Fayette as well: "Emma, Joseph's wife, came to my father's house a short time after Joseph and Oliver came, and she wrote a little of the translation, my brother Christian wrote some, but Oliver wrote the greater portion of it" (David Whitmer interview with James H. Hart [1884], in Welch, "Miraculous Translation," 152).

That is a nice second source, and in Joseph's own words. The "Spectacles" article focuses on the variations in the translation method but does not really spend any effort at determining who was acting as scribe at any particular time because it is tangential to the subject (nor does it delve into Joseph's other uses of the seer stone - at 70 pages, it is probably too long already).

Perhaps you are right that David Whitmer and Emma were not in a position to know for certain whether the Nephite interpreters were returned, but they apparently did not see them used in the translation they observed in 1829. David was shown them by the angel when he saw the gold plates, but he does not describe Joseph using them during the portion of the translation that he witnessed. Both Emma and David were able to observe the object that Joseph routinely placed in his hat during this period and they both describe it as Joseph's brown seer stone.

I personally believe that the seer stone was used exclusively during after the loss of the 116 pages, but I feel that there has to be room left to consider that the Nephite instrument may have been returned.

What is interesting to me is that the accounts seem to indicate a somewhat opposite situation - that the stone and the hat were used prior to the loss of the 116 pages (for example, Martin substituting the stone), and accounts implying that the Nephite instrument was placed in the hat as well. When Joseph first received the Nephite instrument, he felt that it was more powerful than his own seer stone ("I can see anything. They are marvelous.") . I wonder how it is that he came to realize that his own seer stone was sufficient. How quickly did that occur? Was it part of the same progression that caused him to eventually realize that he didn't need to use a stone at all? In addition to the Nephite instrument, was Joseph's own seer stone taken away? If it was, was it consecrated in some way before it was returned to him?

WW

Edited June 15, 2013 by Wiki Wonka

[Nevo]

When Joseph first received the Nephite instrument, he felt that it was more powerful than his own seer stone ("I can see anything. They are marvelous.") . I wonder how it is that he came to realize that his own seer stone was sufficient. How quickly did that occur? Was it part of the same progression that caused him to eventually realize that he didn't need to use a stone at all? In addition to the Nephite instrument, was Joseph's own seer stone taken away? If it was, was it consecrated in some way before it was returned to him?

Mark Ashurst-McGee's MA thesis (which I linked to earlier) contains the following interesting speculation: "When Joseph translated the Book of Mormon, he may have considered the brown stone found in the kettle a Nephite stone, the white stone found on the Chase farm one of the 'white and clear' stones 'molten out of a rock' by the Brother of Jared and then touched by the finger of the Lord, and the spectacle stones a special creation of the Lord's. In this possible reconstruction, each successive stone had a more ancient history and was attributed to a more esteemed original owner/creator" (Ashurst-McGee, "A Pathway to Prophethood," 311). There's no hard evidence that this was Joseph's view, but I think it's quite plausible that Joseph regarded even those seer stones he obtained by natural means as ancient and/or sacred.

Why did Joseph end up using his inferior brown seer stone rather than Nephite interpreters (or even his preferred white stone, "Gazelem")? It's an interesting question. Ashurst-McGee suggests the following scenario:

Harris said that Joseph used a stone for "convenience." How was the seer stone more convenient? William explained this to John W. Peterson:

the instruments were much too large for Joseph and he could only see through one at a time using sometimes one and sometimes the other. By putting his head in a hat or some dark object it was not necessary to close one eye while looking through the stone with the other. In that way sometimes when his eyes grew tires [tired] he releaved them of the strain.

Charles Anthon, who discussed the golden plates with Martin Harris in 1828, wrote that the spectacles "were so large, that, if a person attempted to look through them, his two eyes would have to be turned towards one of the glasses merely, the spectacles in question being altogether too large for the breadth of the human face." To remedy the situation, Anthon wrote, Joseph would often look through "one of the glasses." The size of the spectacles made them inconvenient to translate with.

To remedy this problem, Joseph apparently disassembled the spectacles. Removed from their frame, the lenses became seer stones. It was only natural then for Joseph to use them by placing them in a hat. Martin Harris apparently informed the editor of the Palmyra Freeman that Joseph translated the Book of Mormon by "placing the spectacles in a hat." Years later, Martin Harris would state, "I never dared to look into them by placing them in the hat." Removing the lenses from their frame and placing them in the bottom of the hat would have allowed Smith to use both eyes. It also would have allowed him to view both stones, but the optical physics of such a scenario would have made it impossible to see one image in both lenses as one does when wearing glasses immediately over the eyes. Because Joseph had always looked at a single stone in his hat, he probably removed one of the lenses from the hat. At this point, substituting one of the earlier seer stones for the lens became a minute step. By doing so, he could reassemble the spectacles, reattach them to the breastplate, reinsert them in their protective pouch, and hide them in a safe place.

Which stone did Joseph use? Because he preferred his white stone over the brown one, he probably started using it first. . . . An 1830 source informed by Martin Harris stated that to translate the Book of Mormon "Smith would put his face into a hat in which he had a white stone, and pretend to read from it . . . ." Because Martin Harris served as Smith's scribe during the first phase of Book of Mormon translation, Smith's use of the white stone for translation should be dated to this period. Witnesses of Joseph's later translations in Harmony and at the Whitmer farm in Fayette reported Joseph's use of the brown seer stone. . . .

Unaware of Joseph's previous ownership of the brown seer stone, David Whitmer thought Joseph received it for the first time after his period of repentance. . . . Those who witnessed Joseph finishing the translation of the Book of Mormon at the Whitmer home in Fayette affirmed that he used the brown stone. His white seer stone served as a bridge between the white lenses of the spectacles and the brown seer stone. . . .

The religious beliefs surrounding seer stones would suggest that, if not using the spectacles, Joseph would use the white stone, which the 1826 court record clearly implied that he favored. And, as noted above, there is evidence that he did so. However, every account concerning the period following Moroni's retrieval of the urim maintains that Joseph used the brown stone. Joseph's possession of the white seer stone in later years proves that Moroni returned both stones. Why then did Joseph begin using the brown one? . . . In Manchester, Joseph had not been able to see holy things with his brown stone. Now, the Lord had bestowed on him the keys of the gift of translation and the ability to translate the sacred record with the brown stone. Moroni may have instructed Joseph to use the less powerful brown stone to further direct the inner development of Joseph's gift of seeing.

(Ashurst-McGee, "A Pathway to Prophethood," 322–29)

In Ashurst-McGee's reconstruction, then, the spectacles were sort of revelatory training wheels. As Joseph's gift of seeing developed, he used first the white stone and then the brown stone until he finally discarded seer stones altogether as a means of obtaining revelation.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Nevo

[williamsmith]

One thing it did for me is confirm my impression that the jury is still out on whether the Nephite interpreters were permanently withheld from Joseph after the loss of the 116 pages and whether he used them in the translation of the Book of Mormon as we have it today.

Another observation: Some things do get buried in history, things that might later come to light with greater accessibility such as Internet access. That might be the natural course of things, not necessarily attributable to a deliberate or sinister effort by an entity to "hide it's history."

I would like to point out that the "seer stone" is nothing more than an Urim & Thummim no different than the named Urim & Thummim..

Thus, history including the seer stone with that title is perfectly reasonable. The spectacles were stones also, but in a bow like glasses.

Edited June 15, 2013 by williamsmith

[Wiki Wonka]

I would like to point out that the "seer stone" is nothing more than an Urim & Thummim no different than the named Urim & Thummim..

Thus, history including the seer stone with that title is perfectly reasonable. The spectacles were stones also, but in a bow like glasses.

The article has an entire section that talks about that, including a reference to this fact from the January 2013 Ensign:

The Spectacles and the Stone as Urim and Thummim

At some point several years after the publication of the Book of Mormon, both the Nephite interpreters (the spectacles) and the seer stone became referred to as the Urim and Thummim. When the term Urim and Thummim was introduced in 1833, it did not refer uniquely to the instrument that Joseph recovered with the plates, but also referred to Joseph’s own seer stone, which he possessed prior to the translation of the Book of Mormon. In 1907, Elder B.H. Roberts clearly associates the term with both the stone and the Nephite interpreters.

The seer stone referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in company with his brother Hyrum. It possessed the qualities of Urim and Thummim, since by means of it-as described above-as well as by means of the “Interpreters” found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates.

45

In common Church conversation, the designation Urim and Thummim is always assumed to be referring to the Nephite interpreters that Joseph recovered with the plates. Only those familiar with the sources will realize that there was more than one translation instrument. The term Urim and Thummim referred to any instrument used for the purpose of translation or the receipt of revelation.

The January 2013 Ensign clarifies that Joseph used multiple revelatory instruments, and that they all were classified under the name Urim and Thummim.

Those who believed that Joseph Smith’s revelations contained the voice of the Lord speaking to them also accepted the miraculous ways in which the revelations were received. Some of the Prophet Joseph’s earliest revelations came through the same means by which he translated the Book of Mormon from the gold plates. In the stone box containing the gold plates, Joseph found what Book of Mormon prophets referred to as “interpreters,” or a “stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light” (

Alma 37:23–24

). He described the instrument as “spectacles” and referred to it using an Old Testament term, Urim and Thummim (see

Exodus 28:30

).

He also sometimes applied the term to other stones he possessed, called “seer stones” because they aided him in receiving revelations as a seer. The Prophet received some early revelations through the use of these seer stones.

46