"If" The Bible Was Man-Made What Would It Look Like?

[Bikeemikey]

You are constructing an elaborate hoax. Who has told you that they believe in a different God? I have never heard anybody telling me that they believe in a different God. The only thing I have heard have been certain Evangelicals who have told me that we believe in a different God. I have never told anybody that I believe in a different God.

I think you might be splitting hairs on this one. If someone tells me i believe in a different God to them after hearing my conception of God and discussing my theology with them then they are also saying they believe in a different God to me. If you admit that Evangelicals have told you you believe in a different God to them then they are also saying they believe in a different God to you. To claim otherwise would go to your earlier point of being logically inconsistent.

Again, remember this is purely to do the the subject of belief... not that there are multiple "one Gods" out there in the world. These are peoples beliefs in God.

Let's come out of the cloud for a moment, and talk about real objects in the real world, instead of talking in generalizations and vague abstractions. Let's take Islam for example, for which you appear to have a particular aversion. Do you think that Islam teaches or worships a "different God"? If so, please describe for us what your God looks like; give us an accurate, authoritative, theological description of Him (and what that description is based on); and then do the same for the Islamic God, and tell us how you come to the conclusion that you and them are worshipping two different Gods (and why your God is better than their God). Has any Muslim ever told you that they worship a different God? I doubt it. That accusation would have to come from you--and the explanation for it likewise.

Lets look over your super-human capacity to understand my thoughts on Islam when I have hardly ever posted on the subject and talk about your "real world" example. Also note that I don't use the term worship different Gods, I use the term believe. This is an important difference.

Islam is a monotheistic religion that is broad and diverse. The idea that there is even consensus within Islam as to the nature of God is improbable. Just as there is not consensus between different Christian groups, Hindu groups etc etc. Now whether someone decides to recognize the difference between the conceptions of God as a difference in kind or a difference in scope is up to the individual. However, there is no error either way. Also note that I have never introduced any sense of superiority or judgment about this. As such, I have no idea why the need to show that any God is better than any other God.

As Mormons we believe that we have a more accurate understanding about the nature of God than other faiths. That is part of the one true church claim. Does it up set people, sure. However, it was the restoration that made the claim of theological superiority, not me. Joseph Smith also repeatedly claimed that accurate and correct knowledge of God is an essential component of religious growth. He also taught a very different conception of God to the dominant Christian understanding of God at that time. Our church believes that knowledge of God (correct knowledge) is extremely important.

I am sure in some respects Islams "God" is described differently to the LDS "God". I good example of this is the small fringe/extremist subset of Islam that live with a belief in a God that endorses Jihad. That is a very different kind of God to ours. Christ is not really present in the Islamic theology in the same way he is in the LDS theology. The are short a God in that respect. The character of God is also different, just as it is between Christian traditions. Does this mean that they believe in a different God to me: not directly. But the underlying doctrine statements and theology of monotheistic religions pushers non-compatible or different belief statements about the nature of God in to a space of direct conflict, rather than positive and exploratory difference.

Please critique this very simple logic chain and tell me where I am messing up:

Two people profess a belief in One God.

This one God states that there are no other Gods but Him.

He also states that he will always tell the truth and never lead us in error.

Person One has been told by God (this is a belief Statement) that God is completely blue.

Person two has been told by God (this is a belief Statement) that God is completely green.

There can only be one God.

God will not / cannot lie.

God can not be completely blue and completely green.

The only logical conclusion a believer can draw is that one of them is wrong.

God would not lie and each believer trusts in God, therefore it must be the other person who is in error.

Person one insists that their "belief" in God is true: that their God is the only God.

The logical conclusion is for Person one claims person two has been deceived or tricked, that their God does not exist.

Person one's God does exist therefore the belief in a God that does not exist (by person two) is the same as a belief in a different God. ***This assumes that we are not going to dispute the individuals beliefs or claim they do not believe what they claim to believe***

In the case to truly polytheistic traditions the chain is even easier.

My mission was in Taiwan. This is a polytheistic tradition. I was told by people everyday that i believed in a different God to them. I have also been told by hundreds of Christians that I believe in a different God to them. i don't think that we can dispute that this happens. I am more interested in what it means when it happens.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Bikeemikey

[zerinus]

I think you might be splitting hairs on this one. If someone tells me i believe in a different God to them after hearing my conception of God and discussing my theology with them then they are also saying they believe in a different God to me. If you admit that Evangelicals have told you you believe in a different God to them then they are also saying they believe in a different God to you. To claim otherwise would go to your earlier point of being logically inconsistent.

There is actually a subtle difference between the two. When they tell me that we believe in a different God, it carries the subtle suggestion that they believe in the real or true God, and I believe in a false God, or I don't believe in God at all.

Again, remember this is purely to do the the subject of belief... not that there are multiple "one Gods" out there in the world. These are peoples beliefs in God.

It is more than just being "subjective". It is a deliberate and purposeful act of falsehood and misrepresentation.

Lets look over your super-human capacity to understand my thoughts on Islam when I have hardly ever posted on the subject and talk about your "real world" example.

Islam is a monotheistic religion that is broad and diverse. The idea that there is even consensus within Islam as to the nature of God is improbable. Just as there is not consensus between different Christian groups, Hindu groups etc etc. Now whether someone decides to recognize the difference between the conceptions of God as a difference in kind or a difference in scope is up to the individual. However, there is no error either way.

There is more consensus within Islam about the nature of God than there is within Christianity. While there are several different sects within Islam, there is hardly any disagreement between them about the nature of God. Their disagreements lie elsewhere.

Please critique this very simple logic chain and tell me where I am messing up:

Two people profess a belief in One God.

This one God states that there are no other Gods but Him.

He also states that he will always tell the truth and never lead us in error.

Person One has been told by God (this is a belief Statement) that God is completely blue.

Person two has been told by God (this is a belief Statement) that God is completely green.

There can only be one God.

God will not / cannot lie.

God can not be completely blue and completely green.

The only logical conclusion a believer can draw is that one of them is wrong.

God would not lie and each believer trusts in God, therefore it must be the other person who is in error.

Person one insists that their "belief" in God is true: that their God is the only God.

The logical conclusion is for Person one claims person two has been deceived or tricked, that their God does not exist.

Person one's God does exist therefore the belief in a God that does not exist (by person two) is the same as a belief in a different God. ***This assumes that we are not going to dispute the individuals beliefs or claim they do not believe what they claim to believe***

I have had enough of generalizations and hypothesizations. If you have specific examples in mind, bring them so we can talk about them.

In the case to truly polytheistic traditions the chain is even easier.

My mission was in Taiwan. This is a polytheistic tradition. I was told by people everyday that i believed in a different God to them. I have also been told by hundreds of Christians that I believe in a different God to them.

I very much doubt that something like this has happened. Why would they want to do that? I cannot imagine a situation where they would want to tell you that. I can't see a need for it, a justification for it, or anything. Unless you can describe a real life situation which is plausible, I don't believe that something like this would have happened.

i don't think that we can dispute that this happens.

Yes, it does happen, but only from Evangelicals, or those influenced by them. I have never heard it coming from anyone else.

I am more interested in what it means when it happens.

I explained in post #93 what it means when it happens:

My perspective is a bit different. I see some people as being hypocritical in their worship of God, and some being sincere. Those who are not hypocritical in their worship of God see everyone who worships God as worshipping the same God, even though their theologies may be different from each other. The hypocrites, on the other hand, are not really worshipping God at all, but just pretending to.

Edited July 1, 2012 by zerinus

[Bikeemikey]

There is actually a subtle difference between the two. When they tell me that we believe in a different God, it carries the subtle suggestion that they believe in the real or true God, and I believe in a false God, or I don't believe in God at all.

There is no subtlety about this point at all. This the the logical result of strongly monotheistic traditions. There is limited room for Godly pluralism. That was the entire point of the basic logical sequence I outlined in Post #176. Please let me know your thoughts on this. I don't feel like your response to the logical outline I proposed was relavant. I think you said you don't like hypotheticals, that is not a counter? I would really like to know where I am wrong in this.

[zerinus]

There is no subtlety about this point at all. This the the logical result of strongly monotheistic traditions. There is limited room for Godly pluralism. That was the entire point of the basic logical sequence I outlined in Post #176. Please let me know your thoughts on this. I don't feel like your response to the logical outline I proposed was relavant. I think you said you don't like hypotheticals, that is not a counter? I would really like to know where I am wrong in this.

You are talking nonsense basically. Your question has already been answered, and need not be answered again.

[wenglund]

Other ways that you can tell that people are not willing to discuss in good faith:

1) They cherry-pick the exceptional and sensational examples, at the expense of over-whelming positive examples, to make their point.

2) They pose relatively meaningless hypotheticals about things their minds are already solidified.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 1, 2012 by wenglund

[Bikeemikey]

You are talking nonsense basically. Your question has already been answered, and need not be answered again.

Well I am happy that you have been able to discount the ideas I have expressed with out ever answering them.

Cheers.