Christianity And The Temple-Why Didn'T They Keep It Going?

[Aliwe]

So, if the coming of our Lord is future, if the messianic age is future, then how is Revelation 21 refering to past events?

Oh yeah, that's the other part of my view of prophesy. It's all out of sequence. History isn't as neat and tidy as scripture would like to make it be.

Here's what Revelation is really about, volgadon. It is Christian apocalyptic literature. There are two instances of Jewish apocalyptic literature, Daniel and Ezekiel. Apocalyptic literature is resistance literature to meet an existential crisis. In the case of Ezekiel (c. 570 BC) , the crisis was the Babylonian Captivity. In the case of Daniel (c. 174 BC), the crisis was the willingness of the Jews to embrace Hellenization. In the case of Revelation (c. 96 AD), the crisis was the persecution of Christians by the emperor Domitian who had revived the imperial cult and was requiring citizens to make a public act of worship to his newly deified brother and father. John of Patmos called this accepting the "mark of the beast". He predicted the overthrow of pagan Rome, but that was no big feat of precognition because the body and soul of every empire meets the same fate as all other bodies and all other souls. In the place of fallen "Babylon" (or pagan Rome) there came New Jerusalem, the city of God. The Church. Rome actually did fall in a single month in 476 AD, but the Roman emperors had already converted, beginning in 337 AD.

[coolrok7]

When Herod's Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. why didn't Christians then just build another one, why did they just let it die out? was it seen as something striclty Jewish that had no part to play in Christianity?

The basic reason is that there was no longer a need for the Jewish Temple under the Old Covenant as it had been fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The New Covenant was now in effect:

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, this is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:19-20)

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:1-14)

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:24)

Jesus had prophesied:

And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (John 2:17-22)

New Testament saints (later to be also known as Christians) saw the prophetical fulfillment in the coming of the Jewish Messiah—Yeshua/Jesus, Who was to be the savior of the world under the New Covenant (not just of the Jewish people):

And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (Acts 11:26)

It was in a different context that the Jewish believers in Jesus as the Messiah continued in their Temple attendance while it was still standing:

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:41-47)

The point to be made here is that the Temple was still being operated by the Jews of the Aaronic priesthood, the way it had been done previously, even after they had rejected Jesus in being their Messiah.

It was never in control of the early Christians who were Jewish themselves. Although they continued going, it was not in the same way before they were believers in Jesus.

Access to the Temple proper was restricted to the priesthood, still in effect up until the time when Jesus came on the scene. For example here in Luke chapter 1:

THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, according to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. (Luke 1:5-13)

The Jewish Temple had been an Old Testament prophetic provision of God commanded by Him to be built and attended to only by the Levitical (or Aaronic) priesthood, supported by the tithes of the people (first a traveling tent or Tabernacle, then a permanent structure in Jerusalem):

The Tabernacle (Hebrew: משכן‎, mishkan, "residence" or "dwelling place"), according to the Hebrew Torah/Old Testament, was the portable dwelling place for the divine presence from the time of the Exodus from Egypt through the conquering of the land of Canaan. Built to specifications revealed by God (Yahweh) to Moses at Mount Sinai, it accompanied the Israelites on their wanderings in the wilderness and their conquest of the Promised Land. It contained the Ark of the Covenant which was eventually placed in the First Temple in Jerusalem. The First Temple in Jerusalem superseded it as the dwelling-place of God among the Israelites. There is no further mention of the Tabernacle after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Babylonians in c. 587 BCE. (The Tabernacle, Wikipedia)

In the outer courts of the Temple grounds (not the Temple proper) would be where the people would gather for the various required attendances throughout the Jewish calendar, one of them being Yom Kippur.

In Leviticus chapter 16 it describes what takes place on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) in the Holy of Holies behind the thick, heavy veil. This was not done in secret in the sense of people not knowing what went on inside (symbolic of the presence of God where the high priest would go into once a year with specific preparation for the cleansing for both his own sins and the sins of all the people of Israel).

The “life is in the blood” sacrifice was made by Jesus at Calvary outside the city walls of the day. While the Temple continued in the mind of the Jews to be the focal point, Jesus said differently in pointing out its future destruction:

Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” (Matthew 24:1-2)

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)

At the point of the death of Jesus on the cross, the thick, heavy veil (which represented going into God’s presence by the high priest once a year on Yom Kippur with animal’s blood became Jesus’ blood) was “torn in two” during an earthquake:

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:50-54)

The above prophecies of Jesus with regard to the city and the Temple were now fulfilled:

As the flames shot into the air the Jews sent up a cry that matched the calamity and dashed to the rescue, with no thought now of saving their lives or husbanding their strength; for that which hitherto they had guarded so devotedly was disappearing before their eyes.

Jerusalem was totally destroyed and as Jesus had predicted - not one stone was left upon another. When the Temple was set on fire the Roman soldiers tore apart the stone to get the melted gold. The Menorah and vessels were carried to Rome and the treasury was robbed. As Daniel had predicted the Temple was destroyed after the Messiah had come, not before. Bible scholar Ray C. Stedman comments on the predictions of Jesus and their fulfillment in history a few years later, In Luke 21:20 we have other details of this predicted overthrow of the city and the Temple. There Jesus adds, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near." Forty years later the Roman armies under Titus came in and fulfilled the prediction to the very letter. With Titus was a Jewish historian named Josephus who recorded the terrible story in minute detail. It was one of the most ghastly sieges in all history. When the Romans came the city was divided among three warring factions of Jews who were so at each others' throats that they paid no heed to the approach of the Romans. Thus Titus came up and surrounded the city while it was distracted by its own internecine warfare. The Romans assaulted the walls again and again, and gave every opportunity to the Jews to surrender and save their capital from destruction. (The Destruction of the Second Temple, Wikipedia)

[ANACO]

So, if the coming of our Lord is future, if the messianic age is future, then how is Revelation 21 refering to past events?

Oh yeah, that's the other part of my view of prophesy. It's all out of sequence. History isn't as neat and tidy as scripture would like to make it be.

Rev. 1:1 states that book is of: "things which must shortly come to pass" that is, a prophecy of future events.

One of those future events is the revealing, in the future, of past events, which John saw and wrote about.

(D&c 128:7; 101:32-34)

But I'm sure you already knew that.

[Ron Beron]

The basic reason is that there was no longer a need for the Jewish Temple under the Old Covenant as it had been fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The New Covenant was now in effect:

As Margaret Barker asks in her book, "Temple Themes in Christian Worship", If Jesus was the ultimate High Priest and the major responsibility for the High Priest was to officiate in the temple, and if there were no temple, why have a Great High Priest?

The Jesus Movement stopped using the temple when the temple was destroyed by the Romans and the Gentile converts saw no need for temple work.

[coolrok7]

coolrok7, on 07 July 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

The basic reason is that there was no longer a need for the Jewish Temple under the Old Covenant as it had been fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The New Covenant was now in effect:

As Margaret Barker asks in her book, "Temple Themes in Christian Worship", If Jesus was the ultimate High Priest and the major responsibility for the High Priest was to officiate in the temple, and if there were no temple, why have a Great High Priest?

The Jesus Movement stopped using the temple when the temple was destroyed by the Romans and the Gentile converts saw no need for temple work.

Her question is already answered in the book Hebrews, that Jesus entered the holy place in heaven not the one that was on earth (I listened to her in the first six videos with Bill Hamblin interviewing her eating lunch at a local pub, in England).

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:1-4, 11-12, 24-28)

She’s of course entitled to her view of things but her writings are not Scripture and she’s not a General Authority in the context of Mormonism. Intelligence doesn’t necessarily equate to having spiritual discernment.

[Ron Beron]

timestamp

Her question is already answered in the book Hebrews, that Jesus entered the holy place in heaven not the one that was on earth (I listened to her in the first six videos with Bill Hamblin interviewing her eating lunch at a local pub, in England).

Quoting your own writing the author of Hebrews was "not a General Authority in the context of Mormonism." In fact, the author of Hebrews was ostensibly not Paul, but an unknown having been written post the 70 AD destruction of the Jerusalem temple.

In direct response to Hebrews. If this was indeed the case then why did the Jesus Movement continue to use the temple and observe both temple and Mosaic ritual and law?

She’s of course entitled to her view of things but her writings are not Scripture and she’s not a General Authority in the context of Mormonism. Intelligence doesn’t necessarily equate to having spiritual discernment.

Would you also discount C.S. Lewis? Or G.K. Chesterton? How about Aquinas or Augustine? They are not GA's. If Barker says something that the spirit says is correct, then is it correct?