Question(S) For My Evangelical Friends

[Buzzard]

And certainly, black Protestants haven't disowned our beloved Gladys Knight because she joined the Church (by the way, is she still LDS?).

To the best of my knowledge, Sister Knight is very much a faithful member who's talents have greatly enriched LDS musical culture.

[followerofemmanuel]

Now, you're not suggesting that there are churches out there who believe that they possess the true gospel and that those who differ in their teachings will not receive all of the blessings of God, are you? (Tongue firmly in cheek)

Once again, it goes back to the plank in our eyes. We are certainly nicer in our rhetoric and almost never trash other faith traditions. In fact, our diplomacy is one of the things that most impressed my wife when we were investigating the church. That being said (and please correct me if I'm wrong), I can't imagine my bishop counseling our youth to "give Catholicism a chance." Sure, he wouldn't make up lies about them nor distort their doctrines (as sometimes happens with evangelicals), but he would be firm that our belief in the restoration is the only "true" belief and that only our church has the authority to conduct the ordinances necessary for exaltation.

Also, from my experience, anti-Mormon teaching is rare outside of the Mormon corridor. Until I moved to Arizona, I had never heard a single mention of Mormonism in church. Here in Arizona, I've found that many churches don't broach the topic at all and those that do will devote about one sermon per year warning against the "deceptions of Mormonism." In truth, my conversion is pretty good evidence that those teachings are not very effective. Most of them center around de-emphasized doctrines or distortions of fact that pale in comparison to the loving Christian kindness exhibited by their LDS neighbors and co-workers. In that way, I think that anti-Mormon teachings work in much the same way that racist teachings work -- the reflect much more negatively on the anti-Mormon and engender empathy towards the believer.

I have never been at a service that preaches against other beliefs. Rather we focus our time in Church learning about what the Bible teaches. So that is not EV experience in my neck of the woods. We have so many people who believe differently from our understanding of God and the Gospel. Our time is best served learning for God's word then preaching against what others believe.

[zerinus]

Now, you're not suggesting that there are churches out there who believe that they possess the true gospel and that those who differ in their teachings will not receive all of the blessings of God, are you?(Tongue firmly in cheek)

Every church must believe that its own theological position is superior to any other's, otherwise it would have no justification for its existence. Why should someone choose to become a Baptist instead of Methodist or Catholic if he believed that there is absolutely no difference between them? And why wouldn't they merge and combine their respective churches if that was really the case? Why the Reformation, and why the splintering and fragmentation of Protestantism into its myriads of pieces if there was complete harmony between them with regard to true Christian doctrine and practice? So each must consider its position to be superior to the rest, otherwise it would have no justification for existence.

Once again, it goes back to the plank in our eyes.

While I am sure we do have some planks in our eyes, I don't think this is one of them.

We are certainly nicer in our rhetoric and almost never trash other faith traditions. In fact, our diplomacy is one of the things that most impressed my wife when we were investigating the church. That being said (and please correct me if I'm wrong), I can't imagine my bishop counseling our youth to "give Catholicism a chance."

That is not the issue. Nobody is expecting Catholics or Protestants to advise their congregations to "give Mormonism a chance". But their vitriol against another church exposes their "claims" to Christianity to be more pretended than real. Did Jesus or His Apostles ever react in that way towards the non-Christian religions of their day?

Sure, he wouldn't make up lies about them nor distort their doctrines (as sometimes happens with evangelicals), but he would be firm that our belief in the restoration is the only "true" belief and that only our church has the authority to conduct the ordinances necessary for exaltation.

As I said, every church must consider its position to be superior to all others, otherwise it would have no justification for existence. Have you studied the history of the creation of these various Protestant denominations? Are you aware of the history of the hatred and animosity that has existed between them? Did you know that wars have been fought, and millions killed in Europe over which Protestant churches are right and which ones are wrong? So every Church considers itself to be right, otherwise it would have no justification for its existence. The only thing that seems to have changed in more recent history is that whereas the Protestant churches have to a large extent learned to live and let live among themselves (although jealousies and disagreements still exist among them); since the creation of the LDS Church, they all seem to have focused their vitriol against Mormonism! I will let you judge for yourself the possible reasons why that might be.

Also, from my experience, anti-Mormon teaching is rare outside of the Mormon corridor. Until I moved to Arizona, I had never heard a single mention of Mormonism in church. Here in Arizona, I've found that many churches don't broach the topic at all and those that do will devote about one sermon per year warning against the "deceptions of Mormonism."

I don't know about Arizona; but from what I have heard, its occurance in the Bible Belt is more frequent. Have you ever heard a Mormon sermon "warning against" the "deceptions of Evangelicalism"? I never have. If you have confidence in the truthfulness of your own religion, you have no reason to bash another's. When the focus of your attention seems to be bashing somebody else's religion rather than worshipping God according to the tenets of your own, it proves that you are not really sure you are standing on firm ground.

In truth, my conversion is pretty good evidence that those teachings are not very effective. Most of them center around de-emphasized doctrines or distortions of fact that pale in comparison to the loving Christian kindness exhibited by their LDS neighbors and co-workers. In that way, I think that anti-Mormon teachings work in much the same way that racist teachings work--the reflect much more negatively on the anti-Mormon and engender empathy towards the believer.

I am sure you are right about that. But in the highly conservative areas where it happens most often, it has at least a temporary effect on a considerable number of people--before they wise up to the deception and shake it off their backs.

Have you ever seen any Mormons carrying abusive posters standing outside other Christian churches, shouting abuse at their members? I haven't. But those who do it against Mormons are generally of the Evangelical brand, and that movement broadly supports the actions they are taking, otherwise they wouldn't be doing what they do. If those people believed that the majority of Evangelicals disapprove of what they are doing, they wouldn't do it. They do it either because the majority of Evangelicals support the course of action they are taking (in their name); or else they don't care enough to voice their disapproval.

[NobodyFamous]

Have you ever seen any Mormons carrying abusive posters standing outside other Christian churches, shouting abuse at their members? I haven't. But those who do it against Mormons are generally of the Evangelical brand, and that movement broadly supports the actions they are taking, otherwise they wouldn't be doing what they do. If those people believed that the majority of Evangelicals disapprove of what they are doing, they wouldn't do it. They do it either because the majority of Evangelicals support the course of action they are taking (in their name); or else they don't care enough to voice their disapproval.

As to your last point, you must remember that evangelical churches are not nearly as corollated as LDS churches. For instance, I most recently attended a Baptist church that would have nothing to do with those at the Westboro Baptist Church (the group that protests outside of military funerals while carrying hateful signs about our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters). The vast majority of Protestant congregations are largely autonomous and therefore, it might not be fair to assume that they support the actions of others just because they share the same "brand."

That being said, you do raise an excellent point about having the courage to voice their disapproval of bigotry. God's children should have the courage to speak out against injustice heaped upon any of God's children (regardless of whether they share our belief in Christ or not). However, I don't think that this cowardice merely applies to anti-Mormon bigotry. In fact, Dr. King's famous letter from a Birmingham jail dealt with just this issue -- the failure of Christian ministers to stand up firmly against racial bigotry and declare that God bestowed the blessings of liberty to ALL of his children (here comes that darn plank again ... wink-wink).

Seriously, I do understand your concern about anti-Mormon prejudice and I don't want to minimize or rationalize it. As a member of another stigmatize group, I really do feel your pain. We'll have to pray that our evangelical brothers and sisters gain the courage to do what is right. In the meantime, perhaps we might want to consider where we can be more courageous in confronting bigotry heaped upon others.

[zerinus]

As to your last point, you must remember that evangelical churches are not nearly as corollated as LDS churches. For instance, I most recently attended a Baptist church that would have nothing to do with those at the Westboro Baptist Church (the group that protests outside of military funerals while carrying hateful signs about our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters). The vast majority of Protestant congregations are largely autonomous and therefore, it might not be fair to assume that they support the actions of others just because they share the same "brand."

While I agree about their autonomy, and I am sure there are differences between them, they also have a "collective conscience". The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest umbrella group which collectively brings many "Evangelicals" together.

That being said, you do raise an excellent point about having the courage to voice their disapproval of bigotry. God's children should have the courage to speak out against injustice heaped upon any of God's children (regardless of whether they share our belief in Christ or not). However, I don't think that this cowardice merely applies to anti-Mormon bigotry. In fact, Dr. King's famous letter from a Birmingham jail dealt with just this issue -- the failure of Christian ministers to stand up firmly against racial bigotry and declare that God bestowed the blessings of liberty to ALL of his children (here comes that darn plank again ... wink-wink).

Seriously, I do understand your concern about anti-Mormon prejudice and I don't want to minimize or rationalize it. As a member of another stigmatize group, I really do feel your pain. We'll have to pray that our evangelical brothers and sisters gain the courage to do what is right. In the meantime, perhaps we might want to consider where we can be more courageous in confronting bigotry heaped upon others.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I am not experiencing any "pain" because of any of these things. I am speaking from a postilion of strength, not of weakness. Mormonism is not "pained" by any of this stuff, nor is it adversely affected. Those people are only hurting themselves and their own cause by doing those kinds of things. I don't think you have realized how strong the Mormon position really is.

[KevinG]

Grundelwalken,

You wrote:

No. Nothing I said even implies such a thing. Practically everyone expresses some truth or goodness in their speech or music. Did I not say the following?

"An evangelical might personally have no problem listening to a conference address and even find much to agree with in it, or listening with enjoyment to a song performed by a Mormon or by the MTC."

Yes and then you followed those sentiments with the pesky and qualifying "but..."

[Buzzard]

My admittedly limited experience is that most EV and other churches aren't obsessed with the LDS church. But there is a small cabal of traveling anti- preachers who make their living giving sermons against the church. I've been invited to a few of these over the years. Also, a lot of megachurches with several ministries include a "Cults Ministry", essentially a rotating Sunday School course that deals with several religions. Harvest Fellowship in Riverside, CA, where I lived for a couple of decades spent six weeks each on JW's, 7th Day Adventists (?!), and the Mormons, then started over. I could always tell when the Mormon rotation was on because of the routine anti- questions I was asked at work. "Why do Mormons think God had sex with Mary?", and others whose ease of debunking was matched only by their lack of originality.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Buzzard

[followerofemmanuel]

My admittedly limited experience is that most EV and other churches aren't obsessed with the LDS church. But there is a small cabal of traveling anti- preachers who make their living giving sermons against the church. I've been invited to a few of these over the years. Also, a lot of megachurches with several ministries include a "Cults Ministry", essentially a rotating Sunday School course that deals with several religions. Harvest Fellowship in Riverside, CA, where I lived for a couple of decades spent six weeks each on JW's, 7th Day Adventists (?!), and the Mormons, then started over. I could always tell when the Mormon rotation was on because of the routine anti- questions I was asked at work. "Why do Mormons think God had sex with Mary?", and others whose ease of debunking was matched only by their lack of originality.

From my experience and what little I know, I would total agree with you on your point that EV Church's are not obsessed with tearing down the LDS Church. I have never had it come up as a topic in Church or in any teaching. Those people that you refer to with hateful signs or disturb your events beat to their own drums in the name of "truth". I can't imagine what good anyone would expect of that. Until I heard about it here I never knew it was an issue.

[blooit]

Several responses indicate that maybe I am overstating EV opposition to the LDS faith. I would argue that I am not. For example, IIRC Gladys Knight won the Grammy for gospel album a few years back, and yet I have not heard one song by an lds artist on an EV radio station. I have only heard one LDS authority quoted on the radio (and it was because they didn't know who that Spencer Kimball guy was).

I guess part of what I am getting at, is that for all the accusations of closed mindedness and exclusivism, most LDS that I know tend to be more open to EVs, than vice versa.

[Buzzard]

I guess part of what I am getting at, is that for all the accusations of closed mindedness and exclusivism, most LDS that I know tend to be more open to EVs, than vice versa.

There does seem to be a one-way street sometimes. We sure are seeing it politically this year. After all the decades standing shoulder to shoulder with other conservative religions in the culture wars, it has surprised a lot of us to see the vitriol and passion based on religion aimed at a certain presidential candidate who shall remain nameless.

To ber fair, some personal relationships have resulted in more understanding than in years past. I know that getting the song "How Great Thou Art" into the hymnnbook was a result of a personal friendship between an Apostle and a prominent EV leader. Now if I could just remember the names...