cdowis Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Coe is not, and does not profess to be a book of mormon scholar. That does not stop him from making statements about the BOM, and appearing on the PBS special on the Mormons. If he is abysmally ignorant of the BOM, he apparently is not aware of that fact and is not shy about giving his opinions based on that ignorance.
Eldwynn Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Horses HAVE BEEN FOUND (at the right time) as you sort of mention, it is only that the scientific community hasn't yet changed their paradigm, being apparently ignorant of the evidences, and thus making critical mistakes when horse bones are found, as well the research is still ongoing.There are other evidences of horses in the right time period that Ash doesn't go into, wall paintings, toys, other picture related evidences, etc.Woah, can you at least cite where these were found? I have access to all the major peer reviewed archaeology journals, so if you just want to give it to me in MLA format that would be fine. 1
Zakuska Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Off the top of my head the only "real" issue anti's have on us is that a few mormons in history uttered some human racist or seeming racist or ethno-centrist comments. Which when you really think about it, it isnt a real issue at all because even Peter the great held racists views and he was still a "true" Apostle of Jesus Christ.Gal 211 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?Of course Paul is refering to the scene recorded in Acts 15.Now Im not saying "But billy did it too so it must be alright for me to do", not in the least. Im just drawing attention to the fact that even Apostles of God are human and can make the wrong call at times and yet still be just as true Apostle and Prophet as ever before.
Ariarates Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Not sure whether you are kidding or not, but ...No, I wasn't. Thanks for the explanation!
Jaybear Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 That does not stop him from making statements about the BOM, and appearing on the PBS special on the Mormons. If he is abysmally ignorant of the BOM, he apparently is not aware of that fact and is not shy about giving his opinions based on that ignorance.CFR: What did he say on the PBS special on the Mormons that leads you believe that he is "abysmally ignorant" on the Book of Mormon.
cdowis Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 CFR: What did he say on the PBS special on the Mormons that leads you believe that he is "abysmally ignorant" on the Book of Mormon."So it's a triple migration story. The job, according to a lot of Mormon archaeologists, their job is to find that this is a true story: that all these things actually existed in this place that is described in the Book of Mormon, which in this case would have to be in Guatemala and the neighboring Mexican state of Chiapas. This is what they have been after for 50 years, and unfortunately they've never found anything that would back it up. They have excavated all kinds of sites and, unfortunately, they have never found anything that would back it up. ... snipThe Book of Mormon is very explicit about what the Nephites brought with them to this land: domestic animals, domestic crops, all of Old World origin; metallurgy, the compass, things like that. snipIn the case of the Book of Mormon, you've got a much bigger problem. You really do. We have another part of the world where the archaeology is really very well known now; we know a lot about people like the Maya and their predecessors. So to try to find unlikely evidence in an unlikely spot, you've got a problem. And of course none of the finds that biblical archaeologists are rightly proud about, no finds on that level have ever come up for Mormon archaeologists, which makes it a big problem. (he gives no specific details on what was found, and how it compares to the BOM text, because he does not know the BOM text. He gives a general "on that level" statment, without any attempt to show what was actually found that corresponds to the BOM text. He simply does not know. He compared the BOM to the Egyptian exodus)
cdowis Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 CFR: What did he say on the PBS special on the Mormons that leads you believe that he is "abysmally ignorant" on the Book of Mormon."So it's a triple migration story. The job, according to a lot of Mormon archaeologists, their job is to find that this is a true story: that all these things actually existed in this place that is described in the Book of Mormon, which in this case would have to be in Guatemala and the neighboring Mexican state of Chiapas. This is what they have been after for 50 years, and unfortunately they've never found anything that would back it up. They have excavated all kinds of sites and, unfortunately, they have never found anything that would back it up. ... snipThe Book of Mormon is very explicit about what the Nephites brought with them to this land: domestic animals, domestic crops, all of Old World origin; metallurgy, the compass, things like that. snipIn the case of the Book of Mormon, you've got a much bigger problem. You really do. We have another part of the world where the archaeology is really very well known now; we know a lot about people like the Maya and their predecessors. So to try to find unlikely evidence in an unlikely spot, you've got a problem. And of course none of the finds that biblical archaeologists are rightly proud about, no finds on that level have ever come up for Mormon archaeologists, which makes it a big problem. (he gives no specific details on what was found, and how it compares to the BOM text, because he does not know the BOM text. He gives a general "on that level" statment, without any attempt to show what was actually found that corresponds to the BOM text. He simply does not know. He compared the BOM to the Egyptian exodus)
Jaybear Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 The Book of Mormon is very explicit about what the Nephites brought with them to this land: domestic animals, domestic crops, all of Old World origin; metallurgy, the compass, things like that. snipIn the case of the Book of Mormon, you've got a much bigger problem. You really do. We have another part of the world where the archaeology is really very well known now; we know a lot about people like the Maya and their predecessors. So to try to find unlikely evidence in an unlikely spot, you've got a problem. And of course none of the finds that biblical archaeologists are rightly proud about, no finds on that level have ever come up for Mormon archaeologists, which makes it a big problem. (he gives no specific details on what was found, and how it compares to the BOM text, because he does not know the BOM text. He gives a general "on that level" statment, without any attempt to show what was actually found that corresponds to the BOM text. He simply does not know. He compared the BOM to the Egyptian exodus)Can you be more specific. I don't see what he said in the statement above that make its clear that he is abysmally ignorant of what the BOM says? Is it his reference to the compass? Domestic animals, crops, metallurgy? He compared the BOM to the Egyptian exodus in the sense that they are both migration stories. Why does that comparison bother you? 1
Jaybear Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Can you be more specific. I don't see what he said in the statement above that make its clear that he is abysmally ignorant of what the BOM says? Is it his reference to the compass? Domestic animals, crops, metallurgy? He compared the BOM to the Egyptian exodus in the sense that they are both migration stories. Why does that comparison bother you?EDIT: I should note he made said is no evidence supporting the Egyptian exodus, so I suppose they are similar in that regard.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Add Dr Coe to the list of those that agree with the conclusions I made in the linked post (below)...Mormonism is only believable if nuanced...for certainly there is no evidence that an unbiased third party would accept as evidence of Book of Mormon civilizations having ever existed.http://www.mormondia...of-mormon-true/While I seriously doubt there is anyone who would believe me...I sincerely wish there was more support for the reality of the Book of Mormon than a few (little barley) grass seeds and some native current species some have massaged into full blown wine making grapes.I apologize to the faithful believers that I can not do this any more. I can't keep banging my head trying to make Mormonism claims believable. Its not healthy. I just need to find a way to let go and move on.I can't recall there ever being a claim of the wine in the Book of Mormon being made from grapes. Don't make claims about the book that the book doesn't make.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Add Dr Coe to the list of those that agree with the conclusions I made in the linked post (below)...Mormonism is only believable if nuanced...for certainly there is no evidence that an unbiased third party would accept as evidence of Book of Mormon civilizations having ever existed.http://www.mormondia...of-mormon-true/While I seriously doubt there is anyone who would believe me...I sincerely wish there was more support for the reality of the Book of Mormon than a few (little barley) grass seeds and some native current species some have massaged into full blown wine making grapes.I apologize to the faithful believers that I can not do this any more. I can't keep banging my head trying to make Mormonism claims believable. Its not healthy. I just need to find a way to let go and move on.I can't recall there ever being a claim of the wine in the Book of Mormon being made from grapes. Don't make claims about the book that the book doesn't make.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Add Dr Coe to the list of those that agree with the conclusions I made in the linked post (below)...Mormonism is only believable if nuanced...for certainly there is no evidence that an unbiased third party would accept as evidence of Book of Mormon civilizations having ever existed.http://www.mormondia...of-mormon-true/While I seriously doubt there is anyone who would believe me...I sincerely wish there was more support for the reality of the Book of Mormon than a few (little barley) grass seeds and some native current species some have massaged into full blown wine making grapes.I apologize to the faithful believers that I can not do this any more. I can't keep banging my head trying to make Mormonism claims believable. Its not healthy. I just need to find a way to let go and move on.I can't recall there ever being a claim of the wine in the Book of Mormon being made from grapes. Don't make claims about the book that the book doesn't make.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Add Dr Coe to the list of those that agree with the conclusions I made in the linked post (below)...Mormonism is only believable if nuanced...for certainly there is no evidence that an unbiased third party would accept as evidence of Book of Mormon civilizations having ever existed.http://www.mormondia...of-mormon-true/While I seriously doubt there is anyone who would believe me...I sincerely wish there was more support for the reality of the Book of Mormon than a few (little barley) grass seeds and some native current species some have massaged into full blown wine making grapes.I apologize to the faithful believers that I can not do this any more. I can't keep banging my head trying to make Mormonism claims believable. Its not healthy. I just need to find a way to let go and move on.I can't recall there ever being a claim of the wine in the Book of Mormon being made from grapes. Don't make claims about the book that the book doesn't make.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 oops! my computer didn't show it going through even once.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Could have been Dandelion wine for all we know.
Jaybear Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Could have been Dandelion wine for all we know.Dandelion wine is not called wine, its called dandelion wine. Blackberry wine is not called wine, its called blackberry wine. Wine made from grapes is called wine, not grape wine. I don't know about the book of mormon, but in my world, if you offers someone wine, and its not made of fermented grapes, then you have mislead them. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Dandelion wine is not called wine, its called dandelion wine. Blackberry wine is not called wine, its called blackberry wine. Wine made from grapes is called wine, not grape wine. I don't know about the book of mormon, but in my world, if you offers someone wine, and its not made of fermented grapes, then you have mislead them.If you don't have grapes and you have been removed from grape culture for centuries and your traditional wine is made of dandelions, that would be "wine" to you.Nice try though. 1
Craig Paxton Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 I can't recall there ever being a claim of the wine in the Book of Mormon being made from grapes. Don't make claims about the book that the book doesn't make.Good point and I conceed...BoM wine could have been dandelion wine or squash wine...Ummmm...sounds yummy 1
Craig Paxton Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 That your not the first to go through such challenges.....Some of us have went back putting away our judgment in order to find out the actual truth of the various issues are, and guess what, every anti-mormon conclusion be it by ex-LDS or never-LDS is nothing but the same perversion and ignorance of all the facts, and lacking in wisdom and judgment. Every single issue is like this, no matter what it is. Off the top of my head the only "real" issue anti's have on us is that a few mormons in history uttered some human racist or seeming racist or ethno-centrist comments. The other might be that some were human a time or two some other ways. That's about it. Every doctrine, history, etc. we are criticized on is perverted in some form by the anti's, whether it's calling Joseph a pedophile, or Adam/God and all the rest.See, when I went back, and I compared Mormonism and Anti-mormonism side by side. I saw how the anti's took things out of context, omitted things, etc. etc. in order to falsely portray something the most negative and "evil" they could. Of course any "sane" person wouldn't belong to such a religion the way anti's portray things. But, one who is wise discovers that the way anti's portray things is not the truth, but a perversion of it.The Church ends up being exactly what it claims to be..... It's an amazing knowledge, a miracle had because of ones Faith. Not "belief" (as you should know in mormonism Faith isn't really "belief"). Faith in action, patience, humility, etc.I gather from your posts that English is not your native language...
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 That your not the first to go through such challenges.....Some of us have went back putting away our judgment in order to find out the actual truth of the various issues are, and guess what, every anti-mormon conclusion be it by ex-LDS or never-LDS is nothing but the same perversion and ignorance of all the facts, and lacking in wisdom and judgment. Every single issue is like this, no matter what it is. Off the top of my head the only "real" issue anti's have on us is that a few mormons in history uttered some human racist or seeming racist or ethno-centrist comments. The other might be that some were human a time or two some other ways. That's about it. Every doctrine, history, etc. we are criticized on is perverted in some form by the anti's, whether it's calling Joseph a pedophile, or Adam/God and all the rest.See, when I went back, and I compared Mormonism and Anti-mormonism side by side. I saw how the anti's took things out of context, omitted things, etc. etc. in order to falsely portray something the most negative and "evil" they could. Of course any "sane" person wouldn't belong to such a religion the way anti's portray things. But, one who is wise discovers that the way anti's portray things is not the truth, but a perversion of it.The Church ends up being exactly what it claims to be..... It's an amazing knowledge, a miracle had because of ones Faith. Not "belief" (as you should know in mormonism Faith isn't really "belief"). Faith in action, patience, humility, etc.I have a mind to be offended, but I shall refrain, I was once of the same thinking as you. I studied my little heart out trying to rightly divide fact from error, praying and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit- and, in the end, I, for myself, found the RLDS Restorationist views more believable and scriptural.You can deem me ignorant or lacking in judgement, but since you have never met me, I don't know how it is possible to come to that conclusion.Let me end by saying that I admire your zeal. I hope that someday you can put that zeal to good use by working with fellow Restoration believers outside of you particular church to bring about Zion, the New Jerusalem, the beacon of hope for a dying world. God Bless.
ldsfaqs Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) Which when you really think about it, it isnt a real issue at all because even Peter the great held racists views and he was still a "true" Apostle of Jesus Christ.Gal 211 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?Of course Paul is refering to the scene recorded in Acts 15.Now Im not saying "But billy did it too so it must be alright for me to do", not in the least. Im just drawing attention to the fact that even Apostles of God are human and can make the wrong call at times and yet still be just as true Apostle and Prophet as ever before.Yep, well within normal acceptable limits of human fallibility..... Of course, not to say we go even close to accepting the LEVEL of fallibility that Catholics allow of Catholic Popes and other leaders of the past, because we wouldn't (Amen to the Priesthood of that man and all that jazz, i.e. authority LOST). But the "rare" comment, that by some other later standard isn't appropriate or is mistaken or wrong is perfectly understandable. Full context is everything..... Despite whatever imperfection some in the Church have had in some degree, basically all were great men, righteous men, great leaders for the Lord and His Church. Edited August 19, 2011 by ldsfaqs
ldsfaqs Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Woah, can you at least cite where these were found? I have access to all the major peer reviewed archaeology journals, so if you just want to give it to me in MLA format that would be fine.The article posted by Cinepro refers to a couple of such finds.There are others out there, as well as the other types of evidences that I mentioned.
ldsfaqs Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) Your statements here are complete malarkey devoid of reality and truth....I would say a good HALF of converts to the Church are pretty well informed about various things, other religions, and even anti-mormonism.Thus, your claim that the Church goes after the gullible and ignorant, and only such people join the Church is a complete lie and only another fantasy of your warped anti-mormon mind.I spent YEARS in multiple religions before I first knew and then after 2 years in it joined the Church. And the only reason I joined the Church was because one it was the only one that actually fit the Bible in full and accurately so, and it was the only one that made common sense in many other ways, such as how it was structured to make better people, it's organization, it's ability to prevent corruption, it's ability to raise up righteous and well balanced men and women, etc. In other words, as a "True Church" should, it should be true scripturally true and accurate, as well as practically the best in quality. Mind body and spirit..... The best of all aspects. Although, I would like to make it better and incorporate "Shaolin" teachings, but, it's not absolutely necessary. The Church has enough programs to help people be temporally fit as they live the Gospel in full.Anyway, your judgments are classic anti-mormon and Atheistic judgments of religion and mormonism, thus devoid of actual truth and fact. I know, been there done that. It's wrong and false on many levels.You haven't been here long so I will make this a warning: never call or imply another poster a liar if you want to stay in a thread.Dear Moderator "Minos".... If you read my words above, I never called nor implied anyone was a "liar". I said various judgments, statements, beliefs, etc. were either false or lies.I thought we were on an LDS Apologetics board, in which we regularly call statements and judgments lies and false???Why are you singling me out? Edited August 19, 2011 by ldsfaqs
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) Dear Moderator "Minos".... If you read my words above, I never called nor implied anyone was a "liar". I said various judgments, statements, beliefs, etc. were either false or lies.I thought we were on an LDS Apologetics board, in which we regularly call statements and judgments lies and false???Why are you singling me out?Again, I admire you zeal, but arguing with the moderators won't help you have the opportunity to defend your religious perspectives.Are Shaolin and Taoism related in any way? I believe Taoism may have some remnants of teachings left by the Jaredites as they traveled through Asia. Edited August 19, 2011 by BookofMormonLuvr
Zakuska Posted August 19, 2011 Posted August 19, 2011 Dear Moderator "Minos".... If you read my words above, I never called nor implied anyone was a "liar". I said various judgments, statements, beliefs, etc. were either false or lies.I thought we were on an LDS Apologetics board, in which we regularly call statements and judgments lies and false???Why are you singling me out?Thank heavens you are on an LDS board. Some board would ban you for questioning the voice in the sky.
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