The Cultural History Of The Gold Plates (Bushman/Givens Seminar)

[Joseph Antley]

I feel like this has been blown way out of proportion.

[Daniel Peterson]

On second thought, I won't waste my time continuing, now that moderator intervention is engaged. I will happily discuss this with anyone elsewhere.

While I won't.

Enjoy!

I will add one final thought: if why me can allow for Gee to question as he likes, then any criticism of the question should be equally allowable.

The question can surely be criticized. Obviously. Questions are fair game. But those criticizing a second-hand paraphrase of a question for which they may or may not have an adequate picture of the context should exercise a bit of caution -- the more so as the conclusions they wish to derive from it swell in sweep and gravity.

And they should be particularly cautious about suggesting motivations, and especially so when speculating about the motivations of other people whose only connection may be that they share the same employer and/or were sitting near the questioner and/or were sitting within fifty feet of the questioner.

Controversial principles, I acknowledge. But I'm weird enough, and evil enough, to advance them.

[Daniel Peterson]

I feel like this has been blown way out of proportion.

Absolutely it has.

Ridiculous, really.

[Chris Smith]

I feel like this has been blown way out of proportion.

I agree. I provided an account of events as I remembered them only because I received several emails asking me to do so. I now regret having unintentionally contributed to this madness.

[Mortal Man]

Well, despite all these fireworks, the important thing is that no one got hurt.

Let's be grateful Bill Hamblin wasn't there.

[Daniel Peterson]

One little thing that seems to have been forgotten here, among the attacks on Gee, Roper, Midgley, the sinister and mysterious "Mitchell," and the Maxwell Institute, is that the Maxwell Institute was actually a sponsor of the Bushman/Givens seminar. The seminar was held in the Maxwell Institute's library, for heaven's sake.

I wasn't able to attend, owing to conflicting meetings that were scheduled over my objections but that I couldn't miss. However, if I'm not mistaken, the Maxwell Institute's executive director, M. Gerald Bradford, was in attendance for most if not all of the symposium. Certainly he intended to be. (Something may have come up, though; he did have to miss our 5 PM dinner that night.) And there may well have been others in the audience from the Institute (besides, of course, Gee, Roper, Midgley, and the dark and ominous "Mitchell").

[Xander]

One little thing that seems to have been forgotten here, among the attacks on Gee, Roper, Midgley, the sinister and mysterious "Mitchell," and the Maxwell Institute, is that the Maxwell Institute was actually a sponsor of the Bushman/Givens seminar. The seminar was held in the Maxwell Institute's library, for heaven's sake.

Forgotten by whom?

I will gladly argue that Bushman is a shining example that all apologists should seek to emulate, and I will also acknowledge that the Maxwell Institute isn't to blame for Gee and Roper's antics. But then, I can afford to since I'm not the one viewing this as a war between all apologists or all critics. For heaven's sake, who ever suggested otherwise?

And contrary to misunderstandings, Gee and Roper were the ones on the attack. If they had not tried to instigate contention there would have been nothing to blow out of proportion. All I did was complain about the manner in which they chose to attack Reed's credibility as a scholar, and I point out how the eye-witness accounts are consistent with one another. Ultimately this is not surprising, especially considering those involved. As I said, they have an established history of this kind of behavior, traveling together and harassing critics publicly. This doesn't in any way condemn Maxwell Institute or Richard Bushman, and I don't think anyone ever said it should.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Xander

[Xander]

I think the significance of Reed's research should be obvious.

The list of things that make the fundamental claims of Mormonism "unique" is gradually diminishing. For years it was an apologetic playground where these things were asserted to have been unique over and over, and therefore evidence that Mormonism was very different from other religious claims.

However, from the metal plates, the belief that the Indians were of Jewish descent, that blacks were born from Cain, that spirits come from "intelligences," and even the glorious foundational first vision (which is almost always assumed to have been a unique experience) - through modern scholarship the evidence eventually shows that these things were not unique to Joseph Smith's claims. Ultimately, this supports the critical contention that Joseph Smith was just one of a number of restoration movements that was created in 19th century American. All of the stuff that supposedly needed "revelation" to be proposed, could have very well been borrowed. And the more things that fall of their list, the more likely this conclusion becomes.

[Daniel Peterson]

It's helpful to have that summary of Xander's opinions.

And contrary to misunderstandings, Gee and Roper were the ones on the attack.

Xander wasn't even there.

If they had not tried to instigate contention there would have been nothing to blow out of proportion.

See? I'm not making this up.

Ultimately this is not surprising, especially considering those involved. As I said, they have an established history of this kind of behavior, traveling together and harassing critics publicly.

The evil John Gee, the deceptively affable Matt Roper, the unspeakably wicked Lou Midgley, and (cue drum roll) the dark, sinister, mysterious, and apparently silent "Mitchell."

[Boris Balkan]

I'm actually starting to fear "Mitchell."

[Daniel Peterson]

As they always say, it's the dog that doesn't bark that is the most dangerous.

It may be that "Mitchell" is the real power behind all of this, the one who ordered the hit on Mike Reed.

In fact, I'm sure of it.

I mean, why don't we even know his real name? What has he got to hide? Why is he so SECRETIVE??? Aieeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

Did you notice the evil smirk on his face? I did. And I wasn't even there. He was sooooo smugly satisfied with what he'd accomplished.

What an evil, horrible person.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Daniel Peterson

[Boris Balkan]

I couldn't see "Mitchell's" face. It was obscured by his hood. Plus the glare from his huge scythe was blinding!

[Bill Hamblin]

Well, despite all these fireworks, the important thing is that no one got hurt.

Let's be grateful Bill Hamblin wasn't there.

If I had been there, things being what they are, I would have probably fallen asleep.

[Bill Hamblin]

As they always say, it's the dog that doesn't bark that is the most dangerous.

It may be that "Mitchell" is the real power behind all of this, the one who ordered the hit on Mike Reed.

In fact, I'm sure of it.

I mean, why don't we even know his real name? What has he got to hide? Why is he so SECRETIVE??? Aieeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

Did you notice the evil smirk on his face? I did. And I wasn't even there. He was sooooo smugly satisfied with what he'd accomplished.

What an evil, horrible person.

I am one of the few who happens to know "Mitchell's" secret identity. All I can say to the anti-Mormons is: Be afraid. Be very afraid!

[Boris Balkan]

Joking aside, I simply feel bad that Mike's paper has been overwhelmed by this banal controversy. It was a good paper and I think Mike is a good guy with a great heart and a keen mind. I don't know John Gee, Louis Midgley or "Mitchell" so I can't offer anything substantive about their collective heart. Or their individual hearts. Or whatever such folks have instead of hearts.

[Jeff K.]

I think that now and then academia needs a good donnybrook to clear out the debris and hanger ons.

[Daniel Peterson]

Ah. I see that Agent Hamblin has arrived. Right on schedule.

I see that our new mechanism for transmitting directives from "Mitchell" (aka Lord Welch, also Lou Midgley), the Dark Lord of our Order, is working.

You might want to take a look over at the relevant thread on the Shades/Scratch board, where my Malevolent Stalker is setting forth increasingly bizarre conspiracy theories today.

It appears that I have been dethroned as the Master of Malicious Mopologetic Misdeeds. First, the Stalker fantasized that the real power behind the throne was Lou Midgley. Now, though, he's settled on Jack Welch. Everything we do follows his edicts. We bow before him, and kiss his ring. The Stalker is clueless, but he's amusing in a sad sort of way.

[Daniel Peterson]

Joking aside, I simply feel bad that Mike's paper has been overwhelmed by this banal controversy.

Yes, indeed.

This is the kind of idiocy, though, that is (hallelujah!) gradually but inexorably driving me from message boards. So it's not all bad.

I don't know John Gee, Louis Midgley or "Mitchell" so I can't offer anything substantive about their collective heart. Or their individual hearts. Or whatever such folks have instead of hearts.

Oh oh. You've stumbled onto our eeeevil secret. If I were you, I'd watch my back.

[Bill Hamblin]

Ah. I see that Agent Hamblin has arrived. Right on schedule.

I see that our new mechanism for transmitting directives from "Mitchell" (aka Lord Welch, also Lou Midgley), the Dark Lord of our Order, is working.

You might want to take a look over at the relevant thread on the Shades/Scratch board, where my Malevolent Stalker is setting forth increasingly bizarre conspiracy theories today.

It appears that I have been dethroned as the Master of Malicious Mopologetic Misdeeds. First, the Stalker fantasized that the real power behind the throne was Lou Midgley. Now, though, he's settled on Jack Welch. Everything we do follows his edicts. We bow before him, and kiss his ring. The Stalker is clueless, but he's amusing in a sad sort of way.

Jack who?

I should note that what is really disturbing about Shades is that he's actually right. It's just you have to adjust your tin foil hat the proper way to realize it.

[Ares]

What happens in Provo, stays in Provo.

Mike if you want to start another thread discussing the content of the seminar you are welcome to do so. This thread is done.

[Ares]

Automatic generated message

This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: Cruelty to dead horses

Kind regards,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff