Mormonism And Earth Day, Environmentalism

[Loran Blood]

As a long time member of the Sierra Club,

I'm sorry.

As am I. The Great and Spacious Building apparently has not only many rooms, chambers, and hallways, but different wings, and one of them, indeed perhaps an entire floor, is dedicated to "saving the planet."

Edited August 18, 2011 by Loran Blood

[ERayR]

Frankly, I am surprised that anyone still believes this.

Best,

T-Shirt

Me too. Even most of the pretend media shy away from it now days.

Edited August 18, 2011 by ERayR

[LeSellers]

The way the poster framed it, made it sound as if the government had, in some sense, a desire to see Mormons qua Mormons affected by the fallout. I found that to be rather bizzare, ...

Thanks.

You're welcome.

However, while they may not have actually targetted the Saints, qua Saints, in southern Utah, they knew it was largely LDSs who lived there. The article from HEAL Utah noted that they were expendible because "low-use population" (whatever that means, and I am just cynical enough to think it could have meant "low use" to them), and that North Carolina would have presented a political problem. One is left to wonder if the idea that "it's only Mormons [sic]" didn't run through their minds (even though I know that Ezra Taft Benson was Sec'y Agriculture for much of that time, and another Saint was Treasurer of the united States, too).

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Me too. Even most of the pretend media shy away from it now days.

IT is the great hoax of the 21st century.

Did you hear the latest rant by Al Gore that no one is buying into his BS? Really funny.

[Robert F. Smith]

As a long time member of the Sierra Club,

I'm sorry.

Just now the greatest threat to our environment is major climate change, and it will bring with it disasters on a Malthusian scale.

That may or may not be so but IF it is it will not be because of man.

Does it really matter at this point whether it was human-caused?

The die is cast and the next generation will reap the whirlwind, while ideologues and partisans rant and rave at each other about blame.

[Loran Blood]

IT is the great hoax of the 21st century.

Did you hear the latest rant by Al Gore that no one is buying into his BS? Really funny.

This is off topic (a bit), but over the last year or so, I've come to doubt whether or not Gore has ever really believed the ideology he's supported for so long (as with Korihor). The fact that Gore has come very near to becoming a billionaire due to his riding the crest of the wave of government subsidy of and investment in "green" technology and his deep investments in a number of those enterprises, has caused me to wonder whether Gore, who I've always understood to be a very dangerous ideological fanatic, is not as much an ideological fanatic as a garden variety self serving politician who uses ideological fanaticism to feather his own nest.

I think it possible that its a combination of both, and that, like Korihor, he taught his ideology so long, with so much vehemence, and with so much personal stake in it that he finally came to believe it himself.

[Robert F. Smith]

IT is the great hoax of the 21st century.

Did you hear the latest rant by Al Gore that no one is buying into his BS? Really funny.

If you believe in junk science (like Lysenkoism), of course it seems like a "hoax."

For real scientists, it is anything but a hoax, and the National Academy of Science considers it a national security threat -- as does our Dept of Defense.

It may not be politically palatable to those who don't know any better, but then the views of Jeremiah were not palatable to the hoi polloi in the last days of Jerusalem.

[Robert F. Smith]

You're welcome.

However, while they may not have actually targetted the Saints, qua Saints, in southern Utah, they knew it was largely LDSs who lived there. The article from HEAL Utah noted that they were expendible because "low-use population" (whatever that means, and I am just cynical enough to think it could have meant "low use" to them), and that North Carolina would have presented a political problem. One is left to wonder if the idea that "it's only Mormons [sic]" didn't run through their minds (even though I know that Ezra Taft Benson was Sec'y Agriculture for much of that time, and another Saint was Treasurer of the united States, too).

Lehi

In those days, southern Utah was a favorite location for Western movie-making, and a number of stars and crew members who were dusted during the tests also died early deaths of radiation caused cancers.

The gov't was cynical about a number of aspects of the testing, just as you point out. Mormons were simply not important to them -- perhaps even expendable. And this was also the case when the gov't later tried to place a vast MX missile system in Beaver County, Utah -- thus attracting a Soviet first strike to that area in the event of hostilities. The Brethren took umbrage and the proposal disappeared.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

Me too. Even most of the pretend media shy away from it now days.

Anyone who puts his faith in the tabloid media (our great infotainment business) will come up short. All the more reason to be well-informed and not simply accepting at face value the latest partisan ideology.

[Loran Blood]

Does it really matter at this point whether it was human-caused?

The die is cast and the next generation will reap the whirlwind, while ideologues and partisans rant and rave at each other about blame.

I'll just say the following: there is not a shred of empirical, observational evidence that the human contribution to the rise in CO2 concentration in the atmosphere will, or could possibly, given the physical laws involved, have a measurable influence on global climate. The human "footprint" is so tiny, buried as it is in the background of natural CO2 emissions, that it has yet to be measured empirically. No doubt it exists, but it is so vanishingly small that its effects are utterly trivial.

The climate of the earth is controlled by terrestrial and extraterrestrial forces and dynamics completely beyond the control of man to alter or modify in any measurable way, and within which man's industrial activities are utterly swallowed in an abyss of natural physical processes. We know this to be the case because that is what the overwhelming weight of knowledge found in the earth sciences tell us, and that's all they can tell us at this point in their development.

AGW (more precisely CAGW) is not a scientific theory. It has never achieved anything beyond a highly conjectural hypothesis such that it could have attained that status. Human induced global warming is a belief system with serious political and social consequences, but not a scientific theory, and, per Robert's continued warnings, but turned on their head, we had better grow up intellectually as a people before this ideology takes us and the Third World (even farther) into a dark age of conspicuous and, indeed, devastating want and scarcity in which centuries of progress in human health, welfare, and the blessings of prosperity are undone to the point of real human suffering on a mass scale becoming again the lot of the bulk of humanity and becomes common amongst those for whom it had been essentially eradicated.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Loran Blood

[Loran Blood]

Anyone who puts his faith in the tabloid media (our great infotainment business) will come up short. All the more reason to be well-informed and not simply accepting at face value the latest partisan ideology.

I'm curious then, Robert, as to what your sources are for your belief in AGW.

[ERayR]

Anyone who puts his faith in the tabloid media (our great infotainment business) will come up short. All the more reason to be well-informed and not simply accepting at face value the latest partisan ideology.

I was refering to ABC, NBC, CBS and AP wire service.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If you believe in junk science (like Lysenkoism), of course it seems like a "hoax."

For real scientists, it is anything but a hoax, and the National Academy of Science considers it a national security threat -- as does our Dept of Defense.

It may not be politically palatable to those who don't know any better, but then the views of Jeremiah were not palatable to the hoi polloi in the last days of Jerusalem.

I am quite comfortable in my knowledge of AGW. There is plenty of evidence out there that suggest it is a hoax with out even delving into the science. Have you seen the emails from EAU? It's is a hoax and they cooked the books. Not to mention that Stephan Hansen has been known to cook the books as well. So if the "science" is based off of false information it is easy for people to buy into it.

And if you want real junk science you can go watch Al's wonderful lie campaign "An Inconvenient Truth".

I digress. I find it really interesting that you are basically appealing to authority as if the endorsement of "he National Academy of Science" and "Dept of Defense" mean that it really is true.

When ever I get into debate about this issue this is the best argument I have ever heard.

People that endorse AGW never present evidence, ever.

Sorry but the science is not science. It is a bunch of cooked books and full on exaggerated claims. I don't buy it. And if you want to more power to you.

[Loran Blood]

If you believe in junk science (like Lysenkoism), of course it seems like a "hoax."

For real scientists, it is anything but a hoax, and the National Academy of Science considers it a national security threat -- as does our Dept of Defense.

It may not be politically palatable to those who don't know any better, but then the views of Jeremiah were not palatable to the hoi polloi in the last days of Jerusalem.

As Robert takes this thread toward closure while providing not a single rational argument for any of the various claims he has made here regarding looming environmental catastrophe, it should at least be said that the bolded portion above is a mix of long discredited and embarrassingly uninformed activist tropes of exactly the kind that have made serious, critical debate with supporters of AGW and environmentalism generally all but impossible.

I don't think Robert has any idea at all just how ironic his own use of Lysenko really is here.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Loran Blood

[Loran Blood]

I digress. I find it really interesting that you are basically appealing to authority as if the endorsement of "he National Academy of Science" and "Dept of Defense" mean that it really is true.

What should also be kept in mind here is that when one sees statements from governement entities such as the NAS, one should realize that these statements represent primarily the views of the intellectual leadership of those organizations, not the bulk of the membership, the vast majority of whom were never asked to contribute to the public position of the organization. One must also understand that these are overwhelmingly government science agencies awash in tens of billions of dollars of government grant money that, so long as science with the correct policy implications is forthcoming, will keep flowing to pro-AGW scienctists unlikely to tolerate dissent within their own ranks and who have staked their scientific careers and, in some cases, financial future and media star status on the truth of AGW.

Neither the NAS or AMS ever allowed its members scientists to vote on thier official positions statemenst on AGW. The Dept of Defense study was given a proper burial as anything serious as soon as it became public.

[Loran Blood]

When ever I get into debate about this issue this is the best argument I have ever heard. People that endorse AGW never present evidence, ever.

And they will not debate, ever (well, almost). Drawing the AGW supporters out, from either the scientific or politcal community would be a feat to behold, to be sure. The one exception I'm aware of recently was the debate at the recent debate at the Nongovernmental International Panal on Climate Change (NIPCC) conference in early August, in which Dr. Scott Denning of Colorado State Universtiy, debated Dr. Roy Spencer of the University of Alabama. This kind of thing is as rare as horesfeathers among the AGW folks.

[Minos]

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This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: political and personal

Kind regards,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff