Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 Seems like the LDS never studied this out in their minds and failed to realize its importance in their zeal to make off with only the appearance of righteousness while they deny the power thereof.CFR please. Were do the LDS "deny the power thereof"? The baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost is the earnest of salvation, the unction from on High and the ACT of Jesus Christ putting his name upon usconceiving us his seed, raising us up to a state of righteousness, fulfilling the commandment of repentance, the entering into the kingdom of God,having the door opened by Christ, whereby we stand upon the rock of Christ. Sounds good. preaching to the choir? Maybe?It remains most interesting that LDS preaching ALWAYS circumvents any sort of EVENT in regards to this covenant that must take place or it is vain. What are you talking about. we "Always circumvents any sort of event." I am not aware that one needs to speak in tongues when one is baptized.The infamous, imperceptible process, whether named or assumed somehow else must be judged absolute hypocrisy as it denies the power of godliness.There is no scriptural justification for it. You are rambling, for sure.Let me explain how the baptismal covenant IS acted out and performed and completed. I am unaware of any scriptural support for "acting out the baptismal covenant". We are to covenant, not just act it out.To begin, it was commanded of Jesus Christ that we take no thought for our life, what we shall eat or wear for clothes, meaning focus all your intent,with full purpose of heart away from the things of this world, forsake them, as you seek FIRST the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Um, no that was specific to the Apostles and their mission to the Jews and Gentiles. That was not a blanket statement of the the whole church. Context matters you know.Christ was with the Jews who believed on his name for forty days. I am unaware of any scriptural support that "the Jews who believed on his name for forty days."CFR please. When he was done he commanded them to remain steadfast in all solemnity of heart, as theycalled it, of one accord, UNTIL they were visited by the promise of the Father which is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. So they took perhaps fifty days ofseeking the kingdom of God, at hazard against the cares of the world, and even with Jesus personally administering did not receive the covenant of baptism acted outfor fifty days. . What bible are you reading? There is no talk of "acting out baptism for fifty days".This is what Moroni commanded about watching those who join the church to SEE if the manifestation of a real covenant BEFORE their names are taken as REALmembers of Christ's church. I missed this verse of scripture too. Can you point me to it.The broken heart and contrite spirit, the depths of humility, the repentance and forsaking the world and BOWING to the scepter of Christ's is how an individual distills theirsoul in the solitude and solemnity of their sacred space where they work out their salvation with fear and trembling, that is the only acceptable posture God will receive. No issues here. You pretend to claim that the LDS do not do this?This expertise is not known or named among the LDS since the beginning. And this is why Joseph Smith lamented, when at the end, he realized his folly in not cleansing the Churchand reforming it to conform to the Zion standard. CFR please. Per board guide lines you must back up all of your assertions are retracted them. If you carefully read the lawyer, Durham's paper you will see these truths laced throughout inappropriately as if arrogantly assumed a given. And why? Because he can read and he knows what the scripture say and yet he must liken them somehow to himself. It would take a lawyer to pull off something like that given all the errors that have passed by for 10 generations.A lawyer? What are you rambling about? CFR.
Next Year Here Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 I am not acquainted enough with your board to set up an appropriate quote and reply of Mola Ram Suda Ram's obfuscation ofmy rather straight forward post.A CFR on LDS denying the power of godliness is asking me to prove a negative.However. The fact that there is no tradition that requires a judgment to determine IF anyone has truly taken upon them the name of Jesus Christ and thereby qualified for church membership. sacrament partaking of, priesthood ordination, temple ordinances, lest any unclean things defile and God must withdraw his presence and power from his holy house.The lack of competent discernment of responsible care taking of the commandments demonstrates no fear of the qualificationof God's ratifying power that gives us a new heart, not of our own determined discipline and gumption and effort to become Christlike but an endowment of power that gives us a heart to know and love God and have right to do with him which is a higher state of righteousness.I am unaware of any scriptural support that "the Jews who believed on his name for forty days."CFR please.Acts 1 3 To whom also he ashewed himself alive after his bpassion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things cpertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the apromise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be a<a title="TG Holy Ghost, Baptism of; TG Holy Ghost, Gift of." type="B" href="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/1/5a">baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Obviously you are striving to make what I said confusing by how you round off the corners of my remarks.I am not rambling as you are want to color my remarks. There is NO LDS standard of conversion. Period. There is no judgmentno discernment. Nothing that even checks to see IF a temple recommend should be issued as per IF someone has been cleansed by the powerof the regeneration and sanctification of the gospel as is taught in all scripture ONLY occurs by way of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. It is never considered. It is assumed a given in absolute arrogance. Which is hypocrisy.Consider for a second what would be the reality IF LDS were competent and expert at the proper standard of conversion. That would be a Zion of power "where the very trees obey us." But the Gentiles seek after the things of this world and count that gain for righteousness, Don't they?In so long a time, Why is there no study guide that leads people to Christ such that they WILL obtain the baptism of fire? How is that?Again it is lightly treated and verbosely camouflaged in much speaking about nothing of substance. All must sit and wonder. What's up? Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith page 217"the Church must be cleansed, and I proclaim against all iniquity."April 10, 1842The Prophet Joseph is reported to have said:"I will have a reformation"History of the Churchvolume 5 chapter 27 page 510
subgenius Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 ....[snip]..... There is NO LDS standard of conversion. Period. There is no judgmentno discernment. Nothing that even checks to see IF a temple recommend should be issued as per IF someone has been cleansed by the powerof the regeneration and sanctification of the gospel as is taught in all scripture ONLY occurs by way of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. It is never considered. It is assumed a given in absolute arrogance. Which is hypocrisy.....[snip]This seems to be an incorrect/uninformed declaration. There is definitely a standard. That standard is clearly discerned from the scriptures and is testified through the Holy Ghost to the convert, missionaries, Bishop, etc...Baptism does not happen in a vacuum. Just as Temple recommends do not....there are clear and discernible "checks".Maybe i am missing something here, but the covenant is restated during every sacrament meeting - correct?"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.""O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."i have highlighted above what i consider to be the relatively easily discernible points. Are not all of these points what are necessary to be Baptized? Baptism is a spiritual act, and one that can not be cloaked. John 3:5 speaks clearly to that "standard" and clearly notes that baptism is not simply a physical act of going in and out of the water.Conversion is a clear Biblical concept....its definition (standard) is quite simple... So, for one to assert that there is no "standard" of conversion is to convey one's misunderstanding of the baptismal ordinance in almost its entirety.
subgenius Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 Interesting beyond measure that one cannot find THE covenant made at baptism.The sacrament covenant is plainly acted out in the ordinance.Temple covenants are acted out in the performance.So when and how and what IS the baptismal covenant and where is this 'acted out'?Indeed, Christ commands that his servants were to forbid any from partaking of the sacramentunworthily. I take that to mean those who failed to act out a proper TAKING UPON THEM THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST covenant.Seems like the LDS never studied this out in their minds and failed to realize its importance in their zeal to make off with only the appearance of righteousness while they deny the power thereof.The baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost is the earnest of salvation, the unction from on High and the ACT of Jesus Christ putting his name upon usconceiving us his seed, raising us up to a state of righteousness, fulfilling the commandment of repentance, the entering into the kingdom of God,having the door opened by Christ, whereby we stand upon the rock of Christ.It remains most interesting that LDS preaching ALWAYS circumvents any sort of EVENT in regards to this covenant that must take place or it is vain.The infamous, imperceptible process, whether named or assumed somehow else must be judged absolute hypocrisy as it denies the power of godliness.There is no scriptural justification for it.Let me explain how the baptismal covenant IS acted out and performed and completed.To begin, it was commanded of Jesus Christ that we take no thought for our life, what we shall eat or wear for clothes, meaning focus all your intent,with full purpose of heart away from the things of this world, forsake them, as you seek FIRST the kingdom of God and his righteousness.Christ was with the Jews who believed on his name for forty days. When he was done he commanded them to remain steadfast in all solemnity of heart, as theycalled it, of one accord, UNTIL they were visited by the promise of the Father which is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. So they took perhaps fifty days ofseeking the kingdom of God, at hazard against the cares of the world, and even with Jesus personally administering did not receive the covenant of baptism acted outfor fifty days. This is what Moroni commanded about watching those who join the church to SEE if the manifestation of a real covenant BEFORE their names are taken as REALmembers of Christ's church.The broken heart and contrite spirit, the depths of humility, the repentance and forsaking the world and BOWING to the scepter of Christ's is how an individual distills theirsoul in the solitude and solemnity of their sacred space where they work out their salvation with fear and trembling, that is the only acceptable posture God will receive.This expertise is not known or named among the LDS since the beginning. And this is why Joseph Smith lamented, when at the end, he realized his folly in not cleansing the Churchand reforming it to conform to the Zion standard. If you carefully read the lawyer, Durham's paper you will see these truths laced throughout inappropriately as if arrogantly assumed a given. And why? Because he can read and he knows what the scripture say and yet he must liken them somehow to himself. It would take a lawyer to pull off something like that given all the errors that have passed by for 10 generations.
Next Year Here Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 This seems to be an incorrect/uninformed declaration. There is definitely a standard. That standard is clearly discerned from the scriptures and is testified through the Holy Ghost to the convert, missionaries, Bishop, etc...Baptism does not happen in a vacuum. Just as Temple recommends do not....there are clear and discernible "checks".Maybe i am missing something here, but the covenant is restated during every sacrament meeting - correct?"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." "O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." i have highlighted above what i consider to be the relatively easily discernible points. Are not all of these points what are necessary to be Baptized? Baptism is a spiritual act, and one that can not be cloaked. John 3:5 speaks clearly to that "standard" and clearly notes that baptism is not simply a physical act of going in and out of the water.Conversion is a clear Biblical concept....its definition (standard) is quite simple... So, for one to assert that there is no "standard" of conversion is to convey one's misunderstanding of the baptismal ordinance in almost its entirety.So other than the actual sacrament covenant, which is obvious, please enlighten me on what check is made as per Christ's commandment in 3 Nephi chapter 18 to see to it that no one partakes unworthily lest they come under condemnation of the Father. In fact it is important that it be discerned as to who IS worthy and who IS not worthy so that the unqualified might be nurtured and admonished unto an eventual repentance.I know that the Book of Mormon held up a definite standard where those who administered the gospel could TELL who received the baptism of fire and who as yet did not.Just point out where this is judged in LDS administrations of the gospel and I will shut up about it.
David T Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 To he extent that what is being said in the Sacrament Prayer overlaps that which has been stated in other covenants, those covenants are in effect renewed and reiterated.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) I am not acquainted enough with your board to set up an appropriate quote and reply of Mola Ram Suda Ram's obfuscation ofmy rather straight forward post.Straight forward? If that is what you want to call it. I did not obfuscate. Your post made no sense and you threw out several accusations. A CFR on LDS denying the power of godliness is asking me to prove a negative.However. The fact that there is no tradition that requires a judgment to determine IF anyone has truly taken upon them the name of Jesus Christ and thereby qualified for church membership. sacrament partaking of, priesthood ordination, temple ordinances, lest any unclean things defile and God must withdraw his presence and power from his holy house. This is one such accusation. You claim that "we deny the power there of". That is a positive assertion on a negative. You are basically admitting that you cannot prove your position. What a crappy position to be in. And I cannot believe that you are seriously trying to claim I am asking your to prove a negative. I did not ask you to prove that we do not deny the power there of. That is asking you to prove a negative Do you see the difference? I asked you to back up your claim that we deny the power there of. I take it you cannot.The lack of competent discernment of responsible care taking of the commandments demonstrates no fear of the qualification Please demonstrate that there is a lack of competent discernment.of God's ratifying power that gives us a new heart, not of our own determined discipline and gumption and effort to become Christlike but an endowment of power that gives us a heart to know and love God and have right to do with him which is a higher state of righteousness.Ok the LDS do that. THere is a mighty change and we take upon us that name of Christ. Our lives are changed. I am unaware of any scriptural support that "the Jews who believed on his name for forty days."CFR please.Acts 1 3 To whom also he ashewed himself alive after his bpassion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things cpertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the apromise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be a<a title="TG Holy Ghost, Baptism of; TG Holy Ghost, Gift of." type="B" href="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/1/5a">baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Obviously you are striving to make what I said confusing by how you round off the corners of my remarks. I do not see 40 days in that reference that the Jews only believed for 40 days.I am not rambling as you are want to color my remarks. There is NO LDS standard of conversion. Period. There is no judgment Yeah there is, conversion is an inner conversion. And there are things we can see that are out word such as works. Remember that "Faith with our works are dead". There is indeed a strict standard for conversion. One must abide the commandments and have a testimony. As an example if the an investigator does not live the WoW, meaning no coffee or tea, or tobacco, then they are not baptised. So your assertion is flatly false. no discernment. Nothing that even checks to see IF a temple recommend should be issued as per IF someone has been cleansed by the powerof the regeneration and sanctification of the gospel as is taught in all scripture ONLY occurs by way of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Ok, how do you propose to check if " IF someone has been cleansed by the powerof the regeneration and sanctification of the gospel as is taught in all scripture ONLY occurs by way of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost." I am unaware of any such justification for condition. I have not read any verse of scripture that tells us that we must check to make sure that they really have been baptized by fire.It is never considered. False. It is fully considered and many people have testified of their baptism. It is assumed and can be tested by the HG that is present at the baptism that many people have felt. It is assumed a given in absolute arrogance. Which is hypocrisy. More bald assertions. I don't think you know what hypocrisy means. When Christ tells us that we must be baptized by water and fire and that he will send the HG, you think we should not take his word for?Consider for a second what would be the reality IF LDS were competent and expert at the proper standard of conversion. Oh please, why don't you talk down to us more. As if you were the authority on anything. Are you BOMG?That would be a Zion of power "where the very trees obey us."Um, were is this taught in the scriptures? But the Gentiles seek after the things of this world and count that gain for righteousness, Don't they?In so long a time, Why is there no study guide that leads people to Christ such that they WILL obtain the baptism of fire? How is that? I have no idea what you are rambling about? Ever hear of the BoM or the Bible? That is our study guide. And we use it all the time.Again it is lightly treated and verbosely camouflaged in much speaking about nothing of substance. All must sit and wonder. What's up? More false bald assertions. CFR please that it is "Again it is lightly treated and verbosely camouflaged in much speaking about nothing of substance." Are you just going to pretend that I am asking you to prove a negative?Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith page 217"the Church must be cleansed, and I proclaim against all iniquity."April 10, 1842The Prophet Joseph is reported to have said:"I will have a reformation"History of the Churchvolume 5 chapter 27 page 510Context matters dude. And so far you have not done very well backing up your bald assertions. You are not fooling anyone here. Edited July 27, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Next Year Here Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 Perhaps we could begin again:1. LDS are uncertain about the baptismal covenant, as to how, where, and if they actually made one.2. LDS fail to discern who actually brings forth fruit meet for the Father's kingdom. It is not in the program as no action is taken upon any member who joins the Church or comes of age as to whether or not they "know the Lord" "have received a new heart from God" "been wrought upon and cleansed" having actually received the ratification of the gospel covenant by God having conceived them his seed and are no longer a child of Belial, or the natural man, having become a true saint worthy of allthat the Lord has prepared for them that love him.The existence of the first proves the truth of the second.Failing to competently administer the gospel LDS simply fog up the mirrors and allows all manner of wickedness to partake of sacred things and defile all that pertains to the Restoration.Please show how it is otherwise. CFR I want to see where such judgment and gospel expertisehas ever been demonstrated from day one.We all know about D&C 84:50-59 So what have you got to say? Mormon 8:36, 3836 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your heart 38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
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