Did Js Anticipate His Own Death?

[inquiringmind]

Did Joseph Smith ever speak or write of having any premonitions of his own death?

(And did Brigham Young, or anyone else around Joseph report having such premonitions?)

Edited July 3, 2011 by inquiringmind

[LeSellers]

Did Joseph Smith ever speak or write of having any premonitions of his own death?

On his way to Carthage, he said,"I am going like a lamb to the slaughter."

He said, a few days earlier, when his wife, at the behest of some of the leaders in Nauvoo, asked him to come back and face the charges against him, "If my life has no value to my friends, it is of no value to me."

He also said this.

I told Stephen Markham that if I and Hyrum were ever taken again we should be massacred, or I was not a prophet of God. I want Hyrum to live to avenge my blood, but he is determined not to leave me.

I'd say these qualify.

Lehi

Edited July 3, 2011 by LeSellers

[ebeddoulos]

Did Joseph Smith ever speak or write of having any premonitions of his own death?

(And did Brigham Young, or anyone else around Joseph report having such premonitions?)

You be the judge:

“I am going like a lamb to the slaughter: but I am calm as a summer’s morning: I have a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward all men: I shall die innocent.” (John Taylor, ed., “Times and Seasons”, Nauvoo, Illinois, [Monday July 15, 1844], Vol. V, No. 13, Pg. 585)

Note: emphasis added - Ebed Doulos

Edited July 3, 2011 by ebeddoulos

[volgadon]

He also had an odd dream in Carthage jail.

After checking Teachings, turns out this isn't really a premonition, also it happened before Carthage.

Edited July 3, 2011 by volgadon

[Deborah]

I believe it was Truman Madsen who talked about him knowing he had about 5 more years to prepare the church as he would no longer be here. He met many times with leaders of the church, including women, during that time and prepared them for all they must know and do. He was particularly close to Brigham Young in those last years as they made plans even then to move the saints west. We read in JS and BY

Three months before the Martyrdom, as the two men walked together through Nauvoo, the Prophet again expressed confidence in his friend and awareness of President Young’s role in the Church organization. “If I am moved out of the way,” the Prophet said, “you are the only man living on this earth who can counsel and direct the affairs of the kingdom of God on the earth.”

Further on we read:

In fact, during the last years of his life, the Prophet Joseph Smith increasingly spoke of his approaching death. President Young and the other Apostles did not understand. The possibility of the Prophet’s soon dying “was taken from us,” President Young recalled. However, while preaching in the East, President Young had a spiritual experience which he later understood was meant to prepare him for the Prophet’s death. As President Young sat in a train depot in Boston, a heavy depression swept over him that made conversation difficult. The experience came at the very time when Joseph and Hyrum were killed, he said later.

[altersteve]

I think there is ample evidence that Joseph knew fully well that he was going to die. I don't believe there was any way he could have known unless he could see the future. And only prophets can "see the future."

Oh wait...

[inquiringmind]

Joseph Smith said:

I told Stephen Markham that if I and Hyrum were ever taken again we should be massacred, or I was not a prophet of God. I want Hyrum to live to avenge my blood, but he is determined not to leave me

I'm reminded of Jesus and Stephen beseeching God's mercy on their murderers, and Paul saying "let no man return evil for evil."

It seems strange to me that Joseph would want Hyrum to avenge his blood, unless he (as a prophet) knew something about his killers that made them different.

What do we know about that mob?

Were they mostly Missourians, or ex-Mormons?

Is it possible that Joseph knew they were all sons of perdition, who would never repent?

Could he have known anything about their pre-mortal lives?

Edited July 4, 2011 by inquiringmind

[LeSellers]

It seems strange to me that Joseph would want Hyrum to avenge his blood, unless he (as a prophet) knew something about his killers that made them different.

I believe it was that he knew something about the Church and the Priesthood God had restored. They were to have been permanent, and he didn't feel wholly convinced he had finished the job.

There are people who have a slightly different version of this prophecy: "... I want Hyrum to live to complete my work [paraphrase, I don't have the quotation before me], but he is determined not to leave me."

It is said that "living well is the best revenge." I am convinced that Joseph was speaking in this say vein: if his divine calling as the Prophet of the Restoration were complete, his blood would definitely have been avenged (justified).

[quote name='inquiringmind' timestamp='1309742191' post='1209024382') The purpose of the mod was, after all, to stop his finishing it.

What do we know about that mob?

Were they mostly Missourians, or ex-Mormons?

There were probably few, maybe no, Missourians. There were many ex-Mormons.

Most of them were from Carthage and Warsaw, the political centers of Hancock County before the Saints moved to Nauvoo, née Commerce. Thomas C. Sharp, editor and owner of the Warsaw Signal, was the chief instigator of the early attacks on the Saints because they represented a political force that he could not control through his editorials. He was a Whig candidate for the Illinois legislature (Senate, I believe), and lost to William Smith, a Democrat, who won due to overwhelming support from the Saints. This was in 1842, although he had started his Anti-Mormon Party long before. (His newspaper failed at about this later time and he sold it back to its original owner. He stayed on as editor, however.)

The leaders of the two primary militias (sort-of called the National Guard today, but they had a very different mission back then) were all anti-Mormons. Robert Smith, for instance, was a preacher and Colonel in the Carthage Yellows. He was also a Justice of the Peace and felt the Nauvoo courts cheated him of his legitimate power because they did not have to go through him to ratify their decisions. His antipathy for the Saints was due to all three of these inputs: religious, political and judicial.

The Higbee brothers were ex-Mormons, and so were many of the other leading voices in the "mob". It was not a regular mob because, as I said, they were fully organized (even though officially disbanded by Governor Thomas Ford), and armed by the state of Illinois.

Is it possible that Joseph knew they were all sons of perdition, who would never repent?

Could he have known anything about their pre-mortal lives?

Highly doubtful for either of these.

Joseph did correctly label them as wolves who thirsted for his blood. Such men, while lacking the essential qualification for becoming sons of Perdition, and unable to repent, came very nigh unto it. I'd hate to be in their shoes when the Lord calls them before His judgment bar.

Lehi

Edited July 4, 2011 by LeSellers

[Doctor Ninja]

Maybe it is just me, but what a refreshing topic to not have (one critic and the likes) state something disparaging about Joseph Smith or discount in any way his prophetic martyrdom.

[Deborah]

It seems strange to me that Joseph would want Hyrum to avenge his blood, unless he (as a prophet) knew something about his killers that made them different.

I think he was just trying to convince Hyrum to stay behind as he knew he would be killed too. I think Joseph knew full well that the Lord would take care of those who did such a things.

[Anijen]

Joseph said to some that he wished to live to see the temple [Nauvoo] completed. I am looking for the source but I read somewhere he did let the Apostles know he would not live to see the temple completed and that was one reason he was in a hurry to teach and give the quorum as a whole all the keys he held.

[Deborah]

Joseph said to some that he wished to live to see the temple [Nauvoo] completed.

I believe it was Brigham Young he said that to. I was just watching "Joseph Smith, Prophet of the Restoration" and I believe it was in there. In any case I heard it just recently. I listen to so many talks and discussion I can't keep track of all of them.

[Ron Beron]

There were several comments made by JS that spoke of his premonition this would be his last days.

Eliza Snow stated Joseph said, "I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me-he was murdered in cold blood."

Another family member, Joseph's niece, Mary said that Joseph told his mother that he would never return alive, and stated the famous line, "I go as a lamb to the slaughter, but if my death will atome for any faults I have committed during my life time I am willing to die."

Later in his journey to he passed a farm, paused and said, "If some o fyou had got such a farm and knew you would not see it any more, you would want to take a good look at it for the last time."

[shalamabobbi]

Did Joseph Smith ever speak or write of having any premonitions of his own death?

(And did Brigham Young, or anyone else around Joseph report having such premonitions?)

You could add DC 5:22 and 6:30..

[Xander]

Maybe it is just me, but what a refreshing topic to not have (one critic and the likes) state something disparaging about Joseph Smith or discount in any way his prophetic martyrdom.

Was he murdered? Yes.

Did he deserve it? No.

Was he a martyr? Debatable, but I have no problem calling him such.

Did he predict his death? Yes, at times.

Does this make his martyrdom "prophetic"?

I would argue that this was not a legitimate "prophecy" as the term is generally understood to derive from self-proclaimed prophets. There were high anxiety moments when he made statements that predicted his murder, but people make these kinds of statements all the time in certain situations. Try flying through a rough storm while sitting next to someone who has never flown before. Given the number of people who wanted Joseph Smith dead, it was hardly surprising to speak in those terms. Further, numerous folks "predicted" the murder of Joseph Smith, but I don't think this makes them prophets either.

There are many things that make the whole "prophetic martyrdom" argument moot.

Just a couple months prior, he announced his Presidential campaign and sent many of the brethren, including Brigham Young, Sidney Rigdon and Orson Pratt, throughout the country to campaign on his behalf. Clearly at that point he predicted nothing of his death, or else why waste everyone's time?

If he knew the destruction of the Nauvoo Expoistor would have led to his murder, I seriously doubt he would have sought that through.

When Joseph Smith knew the law was after him, he took some of the ranking LDS leaders and fled for the Rocky Mountains. This was just a few days before he was killed, but it is certain that up until that time, he didn't think his murder was imminent. He only decided to turn around when some of his LDS followers cut them off and he was accused of cowardice.

The fact is Joseph Smith had been making vague comments about dying since 1842, but never anything specific until his death became a near certainty.On the day of his death Richards recorded in his journal that Joseph Smith feared for his safety, saying, "I have had a good deal of anxiety about my safety, which I never did before." The guard at the jail also testified that when they heard the mob arrived, Joseph Smith remarked that it was the Mormons who came to free him.

That's some strange talk for someone who supposedly knew for a fact he was going to die that same day.

And of course we could talk about the biggest problem that ensued after his death, which clearly he never took the time to deal with in an unambiguous manner: The succession of Church leadership. This was such a problem that it led to the divorce between his Church and his family.

And also, even at the moment of his death, his Masonic distress call strongly suggests that he believed he could be liberated from his enemies. To what benefit was this call if he thought he was certain to die, anyway?

So did he at times make comments under high anxiety, that would suggest he believed he would be killed? Yes.

But this is more the result of anxiety and circumstances, not necessarily God-revealed prophecy.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Xander

[Deborah]

I would argue that this was not a legitimate "prophecy" as the term is generally understood to derive from self-proclaimed prophets.

What is a legitimate prophecy. I think this is the problem many have is they don't know what prophecy really is. Did he know he was coming close to the end of his time? Yes? Did he know the exact date? No. But he did know when he had about 5 more years to go. He also knew when he was going to Carthage that he would not return which is why he tried so hard to get Hyrum to stay behind because he knew if he went he wouldn't either. Notice he didn't put such an emphasis on asking his other two friends to stay behind as he knew they would live.

And of course we could talk about the biggest problem that ensued after his death, which clearly he never took the time to deal with in an unambiguous manner: The succession of Church leadership. This was such a problem that it led to the divorce between his Church and his family.

Unambiguous only to those who dissented. It was clear that the Quorum of the Twelve were to be in charge and BY was told by Joseph that he would lead the saints. You need to do some more study. Truman Madsen discusses this as well as the Joseph Smith Papers Documentary.

[Doctor Ninja]

Was he murdered? Yes.

Did he deserve it? No.

Was he a martyr? Debatable, but I have no problem calling him such.

Did he predict his death? Yes, at times.

Does this make his martyrdom "prophetic"?

Looks like I spoke too soon.

I would argue that this was not a legitimate "prophecy" as the term is generally understood to derive from self-proclaimed prophets.

You don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet or that his martyrdom was prophetic. Nothing new here.

There were high anxiety moments when he made statements that predicted his murder, but people make these kinds of statements all the time in certain situations. Try flying through a rough storm while sitting next to someone who has never flown before. Given the number of people who wanted Joseph Smith dead, it was hardly surprising to speak in those terms. Further, numerous folks "predicted" the murder of Joseph Smith, but I don't think this makes them prophets either.

People on planes during rough storms predict their own murder like Joseph Smith did? And this makes sense how?

There are many things that make the whole "prophetic martyrdom" argument moot.

Great! Wonderful! And we have many things that make the whole prophetic martyrdom a reality. Read the entire thread.

Just a couple months prior, he announced his Presidential campaign and sent many of the brethren, including Brigham Young, Sidney Rigdon and Orson Pratt, throughout the country to campaign on his behalf. Clearly at that point he predicted nothing of his death, or else why waste everyone's time?

Why do candidates run? Why doesn't Rick Santorum believe he is wasting everyone's time?

Running for president elevates the issues that are important for the candidate and the people they represent. Clearly, Joseph Smith was doing the same.

If he knew the destruction of the Nauvoo Expoistor would have led to his murder, I seriously doubt he would have sought that through.

Since you "seriously doubt" it then you must be correct.

When Joseph Smith knew the law was after him, he took some of the ranking LDS leaders and fled for the Rocky Mountains. This was just a few days before he was killed, but it is certain that up until that time, he didn't think his murder was imminent. He only decided to turn around when some of his LDS followers cut them off and he was accused of cowardice.

CFR. Thank goodness you got your cheap shot in.

The fact is Joseph Smith had been making vague comments about dying since 1842, but never anything specific until his death became a near certainty.

"Vague" to the apostate, of course.

On the day of his death Richards recorded in his journal that Joseph Smith feared for his safety, saying, "I have had a good deal of anxiety about my safety, which I never did before."

He might had "anxiety" about his safety, but was "calm" as a summer's morning of his impending death.

Medically speaking, I am sure his heart was racing (anxiety), sweat beading on his skin (anxiety) and pupils dilated (anxiety), but was acutely aware (calm and head clear) of what was before him and that his conscience was void of offense before God. Typical sympathetic response.

The guard at the jail also testified that when they heard the mob arrived, Joseph Smith remarked that it was the Mormons who came to free him. That's some strange talk for someone who supposedly knew for a fact he was going to die that same day.

CFR

And of course we could talk about the biggest problem that ensued after his death, which clearly he never took the time to deal with in an unambiguous manner: The succession of Church leadership.

Looking at the Church now, looks like it wasn't a "big problem" after all.

And also, even at the moment of his death, his Masonic distress call strongly suggests that he believed he could be liberated from his enemies. To what benefit was this call if he thought he was certain to die, anyway? So did he at times make comments under high anxiety, that would suggest he believed he would be killed? Yes.

"Strongly suggests" and "suggest" isn't convincing.

But this is more the result of anxiety and circumstances, not necessarily God-revealed prophecy.

Is this your medical opinion? Or is this just your "expertise" on the life of Joseph Smith?

Edited July 4, 2011 by Doctor Ninja

[Xander]

What is a legitimate prophecy. I think this is the problem many haveis they don't know what prophecy really is

A prophecy would be an accurate prediction of a future event, which can only be explained by divine revelation. In this sense, there is no evidence Joseph Smith could produce reliable prophecies.

Did he know he was coming close to the end of his time? Yes? Did heknow the exact date? No.

By that standard, we're all prophets. We all know we're going to die. Joseph Smith knew people wanted him dead. That's a very good basis for predicting your own murder.

But he did know when he had about 5 more years to go.

I doubt it.

He also knew when he was going to Carthage that he would not returnwhich is why he tried so hard to get Hyrum to stay behind because he knew if he went he wouldn't either.

I don't think the evidence supports this either. Many years later a hagiography was published by George Q. Cannon attributing to Joseph Smith a remark about how he wanted Hyrum to leave for Cincinnati, but what is the precise source for this citation, and why does it not appear in print before 1888?

If I knew for certain that my brother would die, I wouldn't let him come at all, and I'd at the very least let him know that he would die if he did. I'm sure that if Joseph Smith knew he was going to die anytime that day, he would have focused his last afternoon trying to secure the integrity of the Church. But that didn't seem to weigh on his mind at all that day.

Notice he didn't put such an emphasis on asking his other twofriends to stay behind as he knew they would live.

There is no strong evidence for this either.

Unambiguous only to those who dissented.

There were those who swayed back and forth not knowing which way to go, precisely because of the ambiguity. Joseph Smith's own family insisted that what you're saying is false, so ultimately, you're just deciding to take Brigham Young'sword over Joseph Smith's family. In the event of Smith's demise everyone believed Hyrum would succeed him, and after they both died it was believed that the next brother in line, Samuel, would take over. However, he died frompoisoning just a few days after his older brothers were murdered. Joseph's youngest brother, William, believed Brigham Young poisoned Samuel. Sidney Rigdon was the ranking leader in the First Presidency, but was voted out by five apostles who didn't like him all that much. Rigdon felt threatened by Young's supporters, so he fled to Pittsburgh thinking his life was in danger.

In any event, I'm not arguing who should or shouldn't have succeeded Joseph Smith. I'm only arguing that their deaths created turmoil and a crisis because the general membership really had no idea which way to go. If it were really so clear to them, then there never would have been a dispute over the matter between Rigdon, Strange and Young. Most people followed Young because of his leadership attributes, not because they were confronted with compellingevidence that that's who Joseph Smith wanted.

It was clear that the Quorum of the Twelve were to be in charge andBY was told by Joseph that he would lead the saints.

Strange then, that it wasn't clear to all the apostles. You know, like the ones who followed Strang.

You need to do some more study. Truman Madsen discusses this aswell as the Joseph Smith Papers Documentary.

I have. Maybe you need to be more critical in your thinking? You seem toswallow every drop of faith-promoting saying without question.

Bad form - Ares

Edited July 5, 2011 by Xander

[Xander]

You don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet or that his martyrdom was prophetic. Nothing new here.

It most certainly is, since I had not made my view known.

People on planes during rough storms predict their own murder like Joseph Smith did? And this makes sense how?

That's not what I said.

Great! Wonderful! And we have many things that make the whole prophetic martyrdom a reality. Read the entire thread.

There is nothing in this thread to prove it was prophetic, for reasons already provided to Deborah.

Why do candidates run? Why doesn't Rick Santorum believe he is wasting everyone's time?

Because like Joseph Smith, he doesn't believe his death will happen before election time.

CFR. Thank goodness you got your cheap shot in.

Seriously? I thought this was a well known fact. You weren't aware of this? What exactly do you think he was responding to when he said, "If my life is of no value to my friends, it is of no value to myself"? No cheap shot, just history. Don't blame me if you didn't do your own homework.

"Vague" to the apostate, of course.

Of course, this would be what you're reduced to.

He might had "anxiety" about his safety, but was "calm" as a summer's morning of his impending death

You seem to think having anxiety over something means you cannot appear calm.

CFR

Seriously? Wow. It was during testimony of the subsequent trial.

Looking at the Church now, looks like it wasn't a "big problem" after all.

Nice red herring, but the fact remains. It was a serious problem that resulted in divisions and excommunications and no corner of the Church was unaffected by it.

"Strongly suggests" and "suggest" isn't convincing.

But the evidence should be, even if it means learning a thing or two from an "apostate."

Is this your medical opinion? Or is this just your "expertise" on the life of Joseph Smith?

It is based on all the available evidence. There is simply no reason to believe he knew for a certainty that he would die that day. There is no reason to believe his various comments that predicted his demise, were based on anything more than anxiety and common sense. He was always on the run.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Xander

[Doctor Ninja]

Seriously? I thought this was a well known fact. You weren't aware of this? What exactly do you think he was responding to when he said, "If my life is of no value to my friends, it is of no value to myself"? No cheap shot, just history. Don't blame me if you didn't do your own homework.

Seriously? Wow. It was during testimony of the subsequent trial.

Not going to give you a free pass on your CFRs that remain unanswered.

You seem to think having anxiety over something means you cannot appear calm.

Yet, Joseph Smith stated that he was calm.

Nice red herring, but the fact remains. It was a serious problem that resulted in divisions and excommunications and no corner of the Church was unaffected by it.

Absolutely no relevance. When did the early church not have "divisions" and "excommunications"?

But the evidence should be, even if it means learning a thing or two from an "apostate."

"Should" is not convincing. I am recognizing a pattern here.

It is based on all the available evidence. There is simply no reason to believe he knew for a certainty that he would die that day. There is no reason to believe his various comments that predicted his demise, were based on anything more than anxiety and common sense. He was always on the run.

So based on "common sense" now. Let me guess, the "common sense" of Kevin Graham? Where do we sign up for this?

[Deborah]

In any event, I'm not arguing who should or shouldn't have succeeded Joseph Smith. I'm only arguing that their deaths created turmoil and a crisis because the general membership really had no idea which way to go.

Actually the "general" membership did know which way to go; they followed Brigham Young and the Q12.

I suggest you do some more studying as much new information has been coming forth with the advent of the the Joseph Smith Papers project.

There is also this article from 1996 Succession

The Saints overwhelmingly accepted the Twelve, with Brigham Young as President of the Church. The minutes of the special conference recorded that almost every hand was raised when President Young asked: “Does the church want, and is it their only desire to sustain the Twelve as the First Presidency of this people? … All that are in favor of this, … manifest it by holding up the right hand.” The cloud of gloom and uncertainty that had been over the Saints was removed, and in its place came confidence, renewed dedication, and almost universal support of the Quorum of the Twelve and President Young as their head.

and from D&C 112:

30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

31 Which power you hold, in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation;

32 For verily I say unto you, the keys of the dispensation, which ye have received, have come down from the fathers, and last of all, being sent down from heaven unto you.

The keys of this dispensation were given to the Q12 and without those keys no one else could have stood at the head without their authorization.

[Pahoran]

Kevin,

Changing fonts and sizes five times in a single post doesn't serve to improve readability.

The guard at the jail also testified that when they heard the mob arrived, Joseph Smith remarked that it was the Mormons who came to free him.

Call for references, please: which guard, and where may we read his testimony?

And please don't try to fob my question off with "at the trial." I wasn't there, and neither were you.

Are you aware that the "letter to Jonathan Dunham" is an old Mormon urban legend? It first surfaced with Allen J. Stout:

And while they were in jail, Brother Joseph wrote an official order to Jonathan Dunham to bring the Legion and reserve him from being killed, but Dunham did not let a single man or mortal know that he had received such orders, and we were kept in the city under arms, not knowing but all was well, until the mob came and forced the prison and slew Joseph and Hyrum Smith and wounded John Taylor severely.

How, we have to ask, did Stout know about the order if "Dunham did not let a single man or mortal know that he had received such orders?" The answer, of course, is that he couldn't have; it was nothing but a rumour.

Taking it up from there, Brodie treated this story as if it were established fact, and Quinn followed in her footsteps; bolstered by the exciting discovery of the actual order. The "discovery" was made by Mark W. Hofmann and is every bit as authentic as all of his others.

So given that there is no evidence that any such order ever existed, what actual evidence is there that Joseph was expecting to be rescued? And if he really was expecting to be rescued, why on earth would he tell the jailer, whose job it was to guard him and keep him in custody?

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited July 6, 2011 by Pahoran

[Doctor Ninja]

Kevin,

Changing fonts and sizes five times in a single post doesn't serve to improve readability.

Great, no wonder my fonts wouldn't behave from replying to his post.

Good luck on your CFR, mine remain unanswered.

[inquiringmind]

Is Joseph the servant spoken of here?

But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marredbecause of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

3 Nephi 21:10-11.

Edited July 6, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Is Joseph the servant spoken of here?

3 Nephi 21:10-11.

Yes.