Evil And Conspiring Men In The Last Days

[Arkholt]

We may not agree about some organizations and if their agendas are evil or not but I think we can have a discussion about results. For instance the global warming bunch say they are trying to prevent a disaster yet their solutions are a disaster. So we trade a potential disaster with a real one today. So the big bad warming earth is supposed to make the seas rise and some species might have a hard time of it. At least that is the story. But we have had many warming periods before in earths past and it seems that most plants and animals did just fine. In fact a warmer earth will extend the growing seasons and extend areas where we can't grow today. But these are arguments and depending on who you believe you can stand on one side of the fence or the other. So let us examine some hard evidence of the green movement and how it relates to man.

Some priorities have shifted over the last twenty years. With the projection of lower rainfall from a global warming model governments have adjusted their water storage plans. It used to be that dams were used to lessen the impact of flooding to protect property. That is no longer the priority. What the priority is now is the storage of water. So storage facilities store as much as they can and only dump water when they know the water will be replaced. If there is a forecast for rain or a snow melt that is not considered but actual run rates are. What this means is that dams will open the flood gates when too much water shows up not when it is forecast. So the flooding in Australia occurred because water levels were not dropped and when the rains came whole cities were flooded. A decision was made that the water storage was a more important risk than the risk of human lives or property. All of this shift due to global warming models not global warming. So because of a model which we have learned was done with adjusted data thousands of people lost everything. But then you may say "Those crazy Australians" but you would be wrong. The same has occurred here in the United States. In short order you will learn that the recent flooding that happened here could also have been prevented but the storage facilities were not lowered because of a change in priorities just like Australia. So man has less worth today than he did just a few years ago. So is this evil? Sure it is.

In order to save the delta smelt water has been diverted in California from farm land and allowed to flow to the sea. An entire industry has been destroyed. But don't fear there is change in the wind. For you see that large corporations are buying up that farmland in California at foreclosure prices. So tell me why would people buy farmland where there is no water? Could it be that the big companies know something we don't? Like maybe a deal in the near future about the smelt and how it really does not need the water. Which as it turns out is true. So is this evil? Sure it is.

But Frank there must be some green projects that make sense? Let us look at wind turbines. It must make perfect sense to obtain energy from the wind. Yes they are ugly and expensive and the maintenance cost is high but it is green isn't it? Sure if you keep focused on the wind and the electricity. But what is in that wind? Don't we place these devices in canyons where the wind is funneled. What could possibly use those same canyons? Something we don't care about. Just migratory birds. Millions of them get chopped up by wind turbines every year. Now if an oil company were to do this they would get sued and the government would step in. But the greens look the other way. As long as the project funnels money to the greens then the birds will just have to learn to fly better. So is this evil? Sure it is.

So... if a person makes a bad decision, or one you don't agree with, then it's evil?

[Franktalk]

So... if a person makes a bad decision, or one you don't agree with, then it's evil?

If you are asking me if we are responsible for our actions then the answer is yes. I don't go along with this everything is OK nonsense. I also don't believe that all life is equal. I place a great deal of value on the life of man and little on the life of a fish. There are people out there that treat their pets better than they treat their kids. Are you OK with that? When men conspire to change priorities placing the needs of trees and wild animals above humans I believe that is evil. You may label it what ever you want and you may defend these people but behavior has consequences.

If you walk up to some unknown person and stab them to death you might think that is evil. If you don't drain a dam in preparation for a flood knowing you are placing peoples life's at risk are you acting the same as a man stabbing someone? But the risk is greater because you risk thousands. We all know that burning down your neighbors house is wrong and evil, what of flooding your neighbors house? If you do it 50 miles away in some valve room aren't you still flooding your neighbors house? Technology allows us to act at a distance, this is no excuse for our actions. If I push a button and a missile vaporizes a city on the other side of the earth can I declare innocence because I was no where near the city?

Evil is evil and does not get a vote. If all of the people in a country decide to murder their neighbors it is still murder. If a committee changes the flood plans for a country and property and lives are lost then who ever was involved did an evil act. Just because the responsibility is distributed does not change a thing. There is a difference between a mistake and an active plan. If a committee thought they were preventing a flood but caused one then that is a mistake. But if people's lives and property are lowered in priority and animals are raised then that is evil. You may color that evil green all you want it is still evil.

[Arkholt]

If you are asking me if we are responsible for our actions then the answer is yes. I don't go along with this everything is OK nonsense. I also don't believe that all life is equal. I place a great deal of value on the life of man and little on the life of a fish. There are people out there that treat their pets better than they treat their kids. Are you OK with that? When men conspire to change priorities placing the needs of trees and wild animals above humans I believe that is evil. You may label it what ever you want and you may defend these people but behavior has consequences.

If you walk up to some unknown person and stab them to death you might think that is evil. If you don't drain a dam in preparation for a flood knowing you are placing peoples life's at risk are you acting the same as a man stabbing someone? But the risk is greater because you risk thousands. We all know that burning down your neighbors house is wrong and evil, what of flooding your neighbors house? If you do it 50 miles away in some valve room aren't you still flooding your neighbors house? Technology allows us to act at a distance, this is no excuse for our actions. If I push a button and a missile vaporizes a city on the other side of the earth can I declare innocence because I was no where near the city?

Evil is evil and does not get a vote. If all of the people in a country decide to murder their neighbors it is still murder. If a committee changes the flood plans for a country and property and lives are lost then who ever was involved did an evil act. Just because the responsibility is distributed does not change a thing. There is a difference between a mistake and an active plan. If a committee thought they were preventing a flood but caused one then that is a mistake. But if people's lives and property are lowered in priority and animals are raised then that is evil. You may color that evil green all you want it is still evil.

I don't know, I just think black and white thinking can lead down extremely dangerous roads. I'm not saying "everything is OK," I'm saying that, for one, things are not always as they seem and there may be more to a decision than you know, and for two, someone who makes a mistake is not automatically evil.

[Franktalk]

I don't know, I just think black and white thinking can lead down extremely dangerous roads. I'm not saying "everything is OK," I'm saying that, for one, things are not always as they seem and there may be more to a decision than you know, and for two, someone who makes a mistake is not automatically evil.

Are we to be like Christ? Are we to do what He told us to do? I seem to remember Christ saying something about saying yes or no. He kinda left out maybe.

[thesometimesaint]

Franktalk:

We are to be good stewards of this earth. A good steward is not someone who doesn't use anything. It is one who wisely uses them. Destroying(polluting and contaminating) the home you live on isn't exactly being wise.

CO2 is a contaminate of the air to all animals including man need it to live. Too much CO2 and you die quickly. CO2 is a known Greenhouse Gas. It absorbes infrared heat from our sun. Not enough CO2 and we're are like Mars, too much and we're like Venus. Both not very good for life as we know it.

Yes there have been other warming and cooling trends in earth long history. It is the rate of change that is the problem. I seriously doubt many would be overly concerned if the warming we have experienced right now were to take place over the next 20,000 years. Normal interglaciation rate for this planet is about 30,000 years and we're about 10,000 years into the present one.

Plants and animal live with their respect niches. Change the climate and they have move with it. So move fast enough to survive, or don't and die.

You do know the difference between weather and climate? There is a reason for there not being many dams in the middle of Sahara Desert despite the fact of the occational down pour of rain.

Gotta go. Continued later.

[Franktalk]

Franktalk:

You do know the difference between weather and climate? There is a reason for there not being many dams in the middle of Sahara Desert despite the fact of the occational down pour of rain.

Gotta go. Continued later.

Weather is what happens to me when I go outside. Climate is what people talk about but never happens.

[Nathair/|\]

Franktalk:

We are to be good stewards of this earth. A good steward is not someone who doesn't use anything. It is one who wisely uses them. Destroying(polluting and contaminating) the home you live on isn't exactly being wise.

CO2 is a contaminate of the air to all animals including man need it to live. Too much CO2 and you die quickly. CO2 is a known Greenhouse Gas. It absorbes infrared heat from our sun. Not enough CO2 and we're are like Mars, too much and we're like Venus. Both not very good for life as we know it.

Yes there have been other warming and cooling trends in earth long history. It is the rate of change that is the problem. I seriously doubt many would be overly concerned if the warming we have experienced right now were to take place over the next 20,000 years. Normal interglaciation rate for this planet is about 30,000 years and we're about 10,000 years into the present one.

Plants and animal live with their respect niches. Change the climate and they have move with it. So move fast enough to survive, or don't and die.

You do know the difference between weather and climate? There is a reason for there not being many dams in the middle of Sahara Desert despite the fact of the occational down pour of rain.

Gotta go. Continued later.

When He [Christ] interviews us, I feel certain that one of His questions will, in essence, be the following: "What have you done with the earth which my Father and I gave you as a home? Have you cherished and protected it" Have you dressed it and kept it as your father Adam was commanded to do? Or have you laid waste to it, defiled its waters, destroyed its fertile lands, befouled its life-giving air?" To those questions, I fear there are many, even among those who aspire to become a Zion people, who will hang their heads in shame. The earth groans under the insults inflicted upon it. (Alexander B. Morrison of the First Quorum of the Seventy: Visions of Zion p.77)

[thesometimesaint]

Franktalk:

You don't have to go outside. Men have been creating an artificial climate in their homes for a very long time now.

[Arkholt]

Weather is what happens to me when I go outside. Climate is what people talk about but never happens.

Not only is black and white thinking dangerous, only thinking in the short term and not in the long term is also dangerous. Weather is short term. Climate is long term, and while it perhaps doesn't "happen," it will affect you and your progeny.

[Franktalk]

Apparently some posters need a lesson on property management. When a lumber company manages a tract of land they plant more trees than they cut down.

http://forestry.about.com/od/foresthistory1/a/tree_plt_timeln.htm

When a person farms some land they do their best to manage the soil. They do many things to prevent erosion. They care for the land they don't use it and move along. The practice of soil depletion is not something that any modern farmer would do. But an ancient farmer did not know how to maintain soils. So over time we have improved our use of land for farming. We now produce more crops with less land under plow.

"In 2009, the agricultural output of China was the largest in the world, followed by the European Union, India and the United States, according to the International Monetary Fund (see below). Economists measure the total factor productivity of agriculture and by this measure agriculture in the United States is roughly 2.6 times more productive than it was in 1948."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture

Those who want to return to the good old days when we let nature alone do not understand what that means. It means that billions of people would starve.

Right now we may be entering a Maunder minimum.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/?s=maunder

If we do then nature will show us just how little control we have over this earth.

Bottom line. I am for managing the earth not for the earth managing man. If all of the eco nuts jumped off a cliff to save earths resources I would respect them.

[DH]

Weather is what happens to me when I go outside. Climate is what people talk about but never happens.

For Franktalk's benefit, here are the dictionary definitions. Though I suppose he'll discount them because they are from a "secular" dictionary, and not personally dictated by God, handwritten by the prophet, signed, and notarized.

weather (wet̸h′ər)

noun

1. the general condition of the atmosphere at a particular time and place, with regard to the temperature, moisture, cloudiness, etc.

2. disagreeable or harmful atmospheric conditions; storm, rain, etc.: protected against the weather

Origin: ME weder < OE, akin to ON vethr, Ger wetter < IE base *we-, *awe-, to blow > wind, OSlav vedro, fair weather

cli•mate (klī′mət)

noun

1. the prevailing or average weather conditions of a place, as determined by the temperature and meteorological changes over a period of years

2. any prevailing conditions affecting life, activity, etc.: a favorable climate of opinion

3. a region with certain prevailing weather conditions: to move to a warmer climate

Origin: ME climat < OFr < LL clima < Gr klima, region, zone < base of klinein, to slope (see incline): orig., slope of the earth from the equator toward the poles

Edited July 2, 2011 by DH

[Franktalk]

For Franktalk's benefit, here are the dictionary definitions. Though I suppose he'll discount them because they are from a "secular" dictionary, and not personally dictated by God, handwritten by the prophet, signed, and notarized.

weather (wet̸h′ər)

noun

1. the general condition of the atmosphere at a particular time and place, with regard to the temperature, moisture, cloudiness, etc.

2. disagreeable or harmful atmospheric conditions; storm, rain, etc.: protected against the weather

Origin: ME weder < OE, akin to ON vethr, Ger wetter < IE base *we-, *awe-, to blow > wind, OSlav vedro, fair weather

cli•mate (klī′mət)

noun

1. the prevailing or average weather conditions of a place, as determined by the temperature and meteorological changes over a period of years

2. any prevailing conditions affecting life, activity, etc.: a favorable climate of opinion

3. a region with certain prevailing weather conditions: to move to a warmer climate

Origin: ME climat < OFr < LL clima < Gr klima, region, zone < base of klinein, to slope (see incline): orig., slope of the earth from the equator toward the poles

So what I said about weather is correct. It is what you experience when you go outside.

As for climate it is historical trends that may or may not extend into the future. It is also patterns governed by location. Are you saying that climate is defined as future weather as projected by models? If so you would be very wrong. So when I said that Climate is what people talk about but never happens just what do you think I was referring to? I was talking about global warming. It is that thing that people talk about but never happens. The earth has done nothing but change for as long as we can determine. The temperature goes up and it goes down. Science says that man was not here for most of these changes. But now all of a sudden man is responsible for warming. And what about the sun? If it were to shut off do you think that the earth would cool? And how fast would that happen? And what exactly have the models predicted and what has actually taken place?

Watch all five parts. Good stuff.

[Arkholt]

This is why meteorologists and climatologists wildly disagree on climate change. Unfortunately, meteorologists don't want to leave the climate science to the climate scientists.

[oats]

'Evil and Conspiring Men' is an accurate term for many top level individuals inside the financial industry and governance. Their power and influence allows them to break the backs of hundreds of millions of people for their own luxury by knowingly altering financial rules and laws to their favour and by conspiring to exploit existing laws and loopholes. They are willing, and apparently able, to continually sacrifice the well being of entire nations in order to sustain their own networth.

[Franktalk]

'Evil and Conspiring Men' is an accurate term for many top level individuals inside the financial industry and governance. Their power and influence allows them to break the backs of hundreds of millions of people for their own luxury by knowingly altering financial rules and laws to their favour and by conspiring to exploit existing laws and loopholes. They are willing, and apparently able, to continually sacrifice the well being of entire nations in order to sustain their own networth.

It goes way beyond financial and government. We have scientist who feed off the government grant money that feed themself with their next forecast. We have men who feed on the weak of spirit and lead them to Satan. For a religious country we certainly have a lot of abortions. We have people who wish to rule who will destroy a country just to rebuild it in another form. There are plenty of opportunities for evil men to do their deeds.

[Franktalk]

This is why meteorologists and climatologists wildly disagree on climate change. Unfortunately, meteorologists don't want to leave the climate science to the climate scientists.

Are you saying that all climate scientist agree? Are you saying that meteorologists are stupid? Are you willing to bet all that you own that the current model is correct? Tell you what, you and all of the other global warming people pledge everything you own and will ever own on the model being correct. Now the government has already spent billions on this stuff. And if it turns out you are right then no foul. But if you are wrong you lose everything. I think this is fair. Because the changes to reduce CO2 are so dramatic that it will destroy entire countries. Spain is the first to fall due to the green movement. If you want to place my job at risk then you should place what you own at risk. Are you willing to do that?

[Arkholt]

Are you saying that all climate scientist agree?

On climate change and its human causes? Yes, they do. The dissenters are the meteorologists, not the climatologists.

Are you saying that meteorologists are stupid?

About climate change and its human causes? Yes. Well, not stupid perhaps, but shortsighted.

Are you willing to bet all that you own that the current model is correct?

The current scientific model? No, because I wouldn't bet anything on any current scientific model. Scientific models change over time. The method is built that way. Current evidence tells us that this is how it is. New evidence may tell us otherwise. It just so happens that the current evidence is a bit overwhelming. The current plans by anti-science environmentalist quacks and ignorant politicians, though, I'd bet money that they'd fail utterly. I think you confuse the plans of scientists and the plans of ideologues and politicians.

Even so, I wouldn't call those plans conspiratorial or evil. I'd call them ignorant. There's a large difference.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Arkholt

[Franktalk]

On climate change and its human causes? Yes, they do. The dissenters are the meteorologists, not the climatologists.

You are a true believer. I hope you are happy with that view. But you must realize that you support people who are evil. In their own words.

http://themigrantmind.blogspot.com/2009/11/climatologists-suppress-dissent-but.html

I am sure this will not matter at all. It seems that you have already had your fill of the koolaid.

I wonder how many good people have been duped by these liars and manipulators. I wonder why you are not thinking critically. Myself I don't trust anyone. I question everything.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Franktalk

[Arkholt]

You are a true believer.

If by that you mean I don't believe in faulty science and faux-skeptical thinking, then yes, I am. Simply "questioning everything" will not give you good answers. However, if one does do that, one must also ultimately question oneself.

[Franktalk]

So let us move on to talk of the world. If the world hates Jesus should we embrace the world? I don't think it is a stretch to see the relationship between the world and God as being opposites.

John 15:18

18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

1 John 3:13

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

So what is exactly this world concept? Are not these the people who embrace the world? Because when you embrace the world you fail to embrace Jesus? Can it be that Christ was right when He said that you can not have two masters? Can you embrace the flesh and embrace the world and still embrace the spirit?

Matthew 6:24

24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

So Jesus tells us that we can not have two masters. So let us focus on global warming for a moment. Is global warming from God? If it is then we fight against God by fighting against it. Not a position I want to be in. But let us say that the earth has over times past changed its temperature. Can we say that those times were caused by God? Can we say that the basic design of the universe pretty much dictates what natural cycles will occur on the earth? Is man part of the mix when we consider what nature is? Can we say that nature is what God made so does it follow that man is part of nature? In the process of living on the earth why is it that some say that what man does is not natural? If it is not natural then what is it? It is not supernatural so I have run out of things to call it. Can we say that some things done by man using his free will are not considered natural by some men yet are not supernatural? Can we call these acts of man anti-natural. Just who is the great judge who gets to define what is natural and what is not? Is this done by a vote? A vote of Godly men or a group of men who consider them self part of nature? And do these men reject the advancements of man in technology? Do they not use cars and airplanes? So these great men who declare what is natural or not get to pick and choose what is acceptable as natural and what is not natural. And where is the Spirit of God in all of this? Some will say that they are acting as stewards of the earth as directed by God. Some will say that we are to conserve because that is what stewards do. But those ideas are ideas of man and are not found in the Bible. When we need to store we are directed to do so like Joseph did for Pharaoh. Joseph needed to store for an emergency. He did not plant less, he did not leave the ground in its natural state. Joseph was not a conservationist. He maximized the output of the farms and stored the excess for a coming famine. What if some men were to plow more ground and use more water to make more crops for storage today. Just what would the great naturalist say? Would they say good for you for storing food in case of a disaster or would they say that the act of plowing more land and using more water is against nature? So when a famine comes are we just to die because that is the natural thing to do?

I have stored food and I have seeds to plant crops if I need to. Have I acted against nature in doing this?

2 Peter 3:7

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

If the world is to be destroyed by fire are we to try and prevent that from happening? Are we to try and stop prophecy?

Matthew 24:7

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There will be famines of a Biblical scale not seen before. We know that man one day will run out of resources and that crops will fail due to any number of things. There is nothing we can do to prevent it. So are we to ask for this to happen?

Matthew 6:10

10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

So knowing what will happen we ask for it anyway? Yes we do because it is the will of God. So we should store food and prepare for hard times but when it does come we accept it. Just as Job accepted the things which befell him. After all the things of the earth are just things. We should hold no special attachment to them.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Franktalk

[Hestia]

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Reason: starting to degenerate into name calling

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Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff