Suffering Of The Righteous

[elguanteloko]

Based on the predictable common theme of elguanteloko's posts, I am just going to take a random guess and predict that he will reply that you are not "understanding".

I give reasons, though.

[elguanteloko]

I attended OCS in Ft Benning, Georgia, and several other military schools all designed to push me to my physical limits and by that means test, and more importantly increase) my spiritual (the Army used a different term, but it is the same) capacity and dedication. By the crazy one's logic, the Army was cruel and vicious, and could not actually exist.

I don't say that God doesn't exist because he isn't good. I just say he isn't good if he exists.

Navy Seals, and all the other Special Forces types in the military go through agonies of body and mind unknown (and unknowable) to people who have not experienced them. (I am not comparing my training with these true heroes, it would have been only a tiny foretaste, had I determined to try any of those routes.)

Yet these experiences made them and me what we are today. These sufferings contributed to my being able to withstand greater pressures than I could have before.

Why is it wrong, then, for God to test us with sufferings when it is not wrong, and even laudable, for the Navy to do the same thing? The same thing, and for a less desirable goal?

The only difference, as far as I can tell, between what my Tac Officers did to me, and what God allows to happen to us, is that I knew exactly why it was happening on Stewart Watson Field and the fire ant hils there, and most people do not know why they are going through the trials here.

We all signed up, and we knew, as much as we could comprehend then, what it would entail. Just as there were men in my OCS platoon who gave up, who decided it was not worth the pain, there are those here who choose to question why this world is as it is. Their questions are valid, but their understanding is fatally flawed, and they cannot accept the answers.

I am reminded of the scripture: "... know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."

Lehi

So, what's wrong with raping children if they are going to get better later on? We should congratulate rapists for helping people become better through the overcoming of the afflictions they give them. Correct?

[Maidservant]

Actually it's kind of the other way around. Again, I remind us that we are all perpetrators, not the innocent. We hurt other people as much or more then getting hurt. Yet, still, we are offered progression into cleanness, at cost to the innocent (in a given matter) that we hurt. The innocent sacrifice for perpetrators (pattern of Christ). And both are able to progress if they wish through the atonement . . . having their sin removed, having their pain removed. It is far more painful to be a perpetrator than an innocent, imo. Or the same amount of spiritual pain. In the complex world, we "take turns" being perpretrators and innocent in any given situation, at the mercy of any given weakness of flesh.

[elguanteloko]

Actually it's kind of the other way around. Again, I remind us that we are all perpetrators, not the innocent.

I never said the rapist and murderer is innocent or that we are innocent when we offend other people. God as described, however, is thousands of times more guilty than any one of us. I gave reasons for this to other people here.

[Maidservant]

I never said the rapist and murderer is innocent

I'm thinking I didn't express myself well, because I don't know why you are saying this or how I meant this either. My "other way around" -- if I can say this right, ha ha -- is not that we 'congratulate' rapists for effecting our progression, but that possibly the innocent have something to do with the progression of the rapist.

God as described, however, is thousands of times more guilty than any one of us. I gave reasons for this to other people here.

[elguanteloko]

I'm thinking I didn't express myself well, because I don't know why you are saying this or how I meant this either. My "other way around" -- if I can say this right, ha ha -- is not that we 'congratulate' rapists for effecting our progression, but that possibly the innocent have something to do with the progression of the rapist.

Sorry if I didn't understand what you wanted to say. I got by your comment that humans are responsible for the evils in the world also ("we are all perpetrators"). That's why I responded that the God I'm referring to is much much worst than any of us could ever be. I'm not saying we don't offend people or hurt others even in serious ways but that God is much worst.

I still don't understand what you are trying to say here. What do you mean by "possibly the innocent have something to do with the progression of the rapist"?

http://www.mormondia...entry1209000309

Well, again, I'm not speaking of this "God" you are speaking of. If you have a different conception of God that's fine but I'm speaking of a whole different thing here. If you want to discuss it open a thread and I'll participate.

[Maidservant]

I still don't understand what you are trying to say here. What do you mean by "possibly the innocent have something to do with the progression of the rapist"?

This is something I'm still trying to figure out as my reconciliation for suffering and God, and maybe I'll end up discarding it. But in any case, I do not separate humans into the "us" (mostly righteous) and "them" (really wicked). If one man is in prison in this world, then I am in prison (riffing from the 'unto the least of these my brethren' passage in the NT). If one man is a rapist, then I am. If one person has been raped, so have I. Obviously, this is the collective suffering I am speaking of, and the world transformation we still need to finish (I am not here speaking of individual salvations).

Thinking about our decision from the pre-mortal world to come to this plane, we did so knowing that we would get hurt, and thus we have given our brothers and sisters permission to hurt us (in that pre-mortal sense) in terms of the fact that we would all struggle and be sinners (hurt-ers) and we knew that. So the fact that we've come implies some permission or sacrifice, or it can, you don't have to accept that of course, it's just a way to think. The pattern is Christ . . . our sins are upon him, but he forgives all sinners. However, we ALL must take upon ourselves the name of Christ and do the same . . . others sins (our parents, criminals, etc) are upon us, and we forgive others in the sense that we do not permit their sins to maim us permanently (we rise on the third day). We apply to the atonement to become whole again, and therefore the consequence of their sin on us no longer exists, and the damage they did is repaired (? also I feel there are things lost irrevocably, however). Of course, the sinner will never get a complete benefit until he or she also heals inside themselves (they and we self-damage as well).

As far as your view that the God I speak of is not LDS, that is fine from your point of view, and many would agree with you, LDS here too, and I certainly could never say that I am right or teach my opinion as best except in terms of sharing.

But just so you know, I experience my understanding of God as completely LDS and arising from my covenants from God and the result of a lifetime of struggle and revelation to know him. Again, we don't have to agree, but that's the point. I know I take things a little on the wierd side, I've always been that way . . . but my point to you is that I am sharing the LDS God with you, as I have learned him in a lifetime walk with him. I see you as not really understanding the LDS God, but that's okay too. That's why we get to have a dialogue .

You said God was guilty, and I managed to agree with you in a sense, that's why I sent you to the link that demonstrated my agreement.

[LeSellers]

I don't say that God doesn't exist because he isn't good. I just say he isn't good if he exists.

Just as the Army prepared me and continues to prepare warriors for the unimaginable challenges of war by purposefully inflicting suffering on its trainees, God purposefully allows us to suffer so we can face the unimaginable challenges inherent in exaltation.

Any good parent lets his child fall down so he can learn to walk. A good father lets go of his son's bicycle so he can learn to ride. A good mother lets her daughter burn herself on the stove, so she can learn to cook. The pain is inexorably connected to the growth. No one has walked who has not fallen, no one has cycled who has not run into a gutter. No one has cooked without getting burned. It's the nature of accomplishment. There is no royal road to achievement.

So, what's wrong with raping children if they are going to get better later on? We should congratulate rapists for helping people become better through the overcoming of the afflictions they give them. Correct?

Jesus said, "It must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh."

Perhaps we should be grateful for our torments (I'm not nearly to that point, I point out) precisely because they do make us what we need to be. But, there is no reason that any particular person must be the source of those torments. And God allows us to suffer because, like the father watching his son pick himself up from the street, blood on his knees and lip, He knows that we have learned something from the experience.

Lehi

[elguanteloko]

Just as the Army prepared me and continues to prepare warriors for the unimaginable challenges of war by purposefully inflicting suffering on its trainees, God purposefully allows us to suffer so we can face the unimaginable challenges inherent in exaltation.

Any good parent lets his child fall down so he can learn to walk. A good father lets go of his son's bicycle so he can learn to ride. A good mother lets her daughter burn herself on the stove, so she can learn to cook. The pain is inexorably connected to the growth. No one has walked who has not fallen, no one has cycled who has not run into a gutter. No one has cooked without getting burned. It's the nature of accomplishment. There is no royal road to achievement.

Jesus said, "It must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh."

Perhaps we should be grateful for our torments (I'm not nearly to that point, I point out) precisely because they do make us what we need to be. But, there is no reason that any particular person must be the source of those torments. And God allows us to suffer because, like the father watching his son pick himself up from the street, blood on his knees and lip, He knows that we have learned something from the experience.

Lehi

There you go, LeSellers.

Your morality promotes raping young children, bombing innocents, the Holocaust, torture of innocents, and pretty much ANY sort of evil one can conceive of. Not only are they permitted but they are (and should be) promoted in your view.

Your position, my friend, is simply insane and makes such a thing as justice impossible.

[ELF1024]

There you go, LeSellers.

Your morality promotes raping young children, bombing innocents, the Holocaust, torture of innocents, and pretty much ANY sort of evil one can conceive of. Not only are they permitted but they are (and should be) promoted in your view.

Your position, my friend, is simply insane and makes such a thing as justice impossible.

Well, since God doesn't exist in your view, it matters not what you think.

[Nathair/|\]

I attended OCS in Ft Benning, Georgia, and several other military schools all designed to push me to my physical limits and by that means test, and more importantly increase, my spiritual (the Army used a different term, but it is the same) capacity and dedication. By the crazy one's logic, the Army was cruel and vicious, and could not actually exist.

Navy Seals, and all the other Special Forces types in the military go through agonies of body and mind unknown (and unknowable) to people who have not experienced them. (I am not comparing my training with these true heroes, it would have been only a tiny foretaste, had I determined to try any of those routes.)

Yet these experiences made them and me what we are today. These sufferings contributed to my being able to withstand greater pressures than I could have before.

Why is it wrong, then, for God to test us with sufferings when it is not wrong, and even laudable, for the Navy to do the same thing? The same thing, and for a less desirable goal?

The only difference, as far as I can tell, between what my Tac Officers did to me, and what God allows to happen to us, is that I knew exactly why it was happening on Stewart Watson Field and the fire ant hils there, and most people do not know why they are going through the trials here.

We all signed up, and we knew, as much as we could comprehend then, what it would entail. Just as there were men in my OCS platoon who gave up, who decided it was not worth the pain, there are those here who choose to question why this world is as it is. Their questions are valid, but their understanding is fatally flawed, and they cannot accept the answers.

I am reminded of the scripture: "... know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."

Lehi

If I may add something to this, from what I understand, we were informed before we were born what Earth life would be like. I don't know to what degree we could understand it before we had any experience, but we knew we would face suffering, temptation, etc. and we still chose to come here willingly. We knew that these experiences were necessary to become like our Father and Mother and we considered it worth it. More than that, "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." We could easily have backed out if we wished.

Yours under the oaks at the gate,

Nathair /|\

[elguanteloko]

If I may add something to this, from what I understand, we were informed before we were born what Earth life would be like. I don't know to what degree we could understand it before we had any experience, but we knew we would face suffering, temptation, etc. and we still chose to come here willingly. We knew that these experiences were necessary to become like our Father and Mother and we considered it worth it. More than that, "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." We could easily have backed out if we wished.

Yours under the oaks at the gate,

Nathair /|\

Don't you see to what ludicrous conclusions this takes you, Nathair? Did women in the pre-existence consent to some of them being raped? You are simply assuming what is in question here and that is that God is good in the way YOU understand as being good; that's why you accept this doctrine that evils are for a greater purpose.

[Jeff K.]

There you go, LeSellers.

Your morality promotes raping young children, bombing innocents, the Holocaust, torture of innocents, and pretty much ANY sort of evil one can conceive of. Not only are they permitted but they are (and should be) promoted in your view.

Your position, my friend, is simply insane and makes such a thing as justice impossible.

Actually it is your morality that promotes it. Lesellers simply explained how people like you with choice who presume there is no judgement of God decide to do those horrible things. Your insanity allows such things in a subjective land. Your incapability of understanding free will and the horrid actions of people like you who do not think God exists or is good reflect the horrible self loathing that segment of humanity represented by you exists in.

I am sorry if your own words reflect poorly upon you.

[Nathair/|\]

Don't you see to what ludicrous conclusions this takes you, Nathair? Did women in the pre-existence consent to some of them being raped? You are simply assuming what is in question here and that is that God is good in the way YOU understand as being good; that's why you accept this doctrine that evils are for a greater purpose.

I don't see it as "ludicrous" at all. We know that our Savior shared with us every pain, every sorrow, every trauma that we will ever know. It's very likely that our Heavenly Parents experienced their share of suffering as well. I believe in what I say because I have faith, because I've tasted of the White Fruit and found it good.

Like Lehi, I have in my life chosen om more than one occasion what I knew would be a difficult and often miserable path. I also knew that it was necessary to become the person I want to be.

To understand what I am talking about, I suggest you research ritual ordeals, manhood ceremonies and rites of passage.

edit to add: Much to my regret, I have neither struggled nor accomplished as much as Lehi or most others on this board.

[Jeff K.]

I give reasons, though.

Chuckle, no you don't.

[elguanteloko]

Actually it is your morality that promotes it. Lesellers simply explained how people like you with choice who presume there is no judgement of God decide to do those horrible things. Your insanity allows such things in a subjective land. Your incapability of understanding free will and the horrid actions of people like you who do not think God exists or is good reflect the horrible self loathing that segment of humanity represented by you exists in.

I am sorry if your own words reflect poorly upon you.

I do believe in freewill though probably not the so-called "libertarian" type of it. I'm also not an ethical relativist or subjectivist are neither are most philosophers. Go to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and look for arguments for moral realism and moral objectivism.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 31 May 2011 - 09:53 PM, said:

Actually it is your morality that promotes it. Lesellers simply explained how people like you with choice who presume there is no judgement of God decide to do those horrible things. Your insanity allows such things in a subjective land. Your incapability of understanding free will and the horrid actions of people like you who do not think God exists or is good reflect the horrible self loathing that segment of humanity represented by you exists in.

I am sorry if your own words reflect poorly upon you.

I do believe in freewill though probably not the so-called "libertarian" type of it. I'm also not an ethical relativist or subjectivist are neither are most philosophers. Go to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and look for arguments for moral realism and moral objectivism.

In other words, my point accurately reflects who you are, and were attempting to project upon LeSellers. Yours is a horrible lot indeed.

[Jeff K.]

I do believe in freewill though probably not the so-called "libertarian" type of it. I'm also not an ethical relativist or subjectivist are neither are most philosophers. Go to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and look for arguments for moral realism and moral objectivism.

Earlier conversation:

elguanteloko, on 31 May 2011 - 04:13 PM, said:

I give reasons, though.

Chuckle, no you don't.

Earlier post confirmed...

[elguanteloko]

You didn't answer my question but, yet again, it seems you guys have a problem with doing that here quite often.

I don't see it as "ludicrous" at all. We know that our Savior shared with us every pain, every sorrow, every trauma that we will ever know. It's very likely that our Heavenly Parents experienced their share of suffering as well. I believe in what I say because I have faith, because I've tasted of the White Fruit and found it good.

If you have faith that God is good then you don't know that God is good. Make up your mind.

Like Lehi, I have in my life chosen om more than one occasion what I knew would be a difficult and often miserable path. I also knew that it was necessary to become the person I want to be.

To understand what I am talking about, I suggest you research ritual ordeals, manhood ceremonies and rites of passage.

Again, your morality promotes raping and torturing people because they are necessary for "progress" according to you. That's insane. About rituals... what's the point of that? Other people do stupid bad things to people with the belief that they need them to become better? That many people do something doesn't mean it is correct to do it.

Let me repeat it again, your morality not only allows but promotes raping children, abusing the mentally ill, etc and you can do these evil things with the implied consent of the victims since they came to earth knowing what they were putting themselves up for.

Good grief, this takes "immorality" to a horrible new level!

[Jeff K.]

Elguantepoco

You know, if everyone thinks you smell, except you, then maybe you need to change your deoderant.

[Palerider]

Having suffered (and probably caused some suffering) in my lifetime, this scripture has meant alot to me.......

Romans 5: 3-4

".............knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:............"

Hope is a difficult thing to maintain. Being hope-less and doubtful seems an excruciating burden to suffer, especially when one inflicts it upon oneself.

Did any of you ever see CASTAWAY with Tom Hanks? Pretty interesting moral taught there, even though it's just a movie......

[Palerider]

Elguantepoco

You know, if everyone thinks you smell, except you, then maybe you need to change your deoderant.

Jeff,

Even though I agree with you (somewhat...) in principle. You're not helping yourself here........

[Nathair/|\]

You didn't answer my question but, yet again, it seems you guys have a problem with doing that here quite often.

I apologize for my poor communication skills. I'm doing the best I can. From my perspective, you are like the Dwarves at the end of C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle. From yours, as far as I can tell, I'm either a liar or a lunatic.

If you have faith that God is good then you don't know that God is good. Make up your mind.

I know that when I sampled the Fruit, it tasted good. I have faith that I am correct about what it means. I have faith that my current difficulties will pay off, therefore I chose to remain faithful and to maintain my integrity. I know that I cannot believe otherwise.

Again, your morality promotes raping and torturing people because they are necessary for "progress" according to you. That's insane. About rituals... what's the point of that? Other people do stupid bad things to people with the belief that they need them to become better? That many people do something doesn't mean it is correct to do it.

Let me repeat it again, your morality not only allows but promotes raping children, abusing the mentally ill, etc and you can do these evil things with the implied consent of the victims since they came to earth knowing what they were putting themselves up for.

Good grief, this takes "immorality" to a horrible new level!

My morality does not allow me to act maliciously to another person, It also requires that sometimes I do not prevent others from experiencing the consequences of their choices, especially if those consequences are necessary to fulfill the purpose of their choice.

edited

May I request that you not use the most sacred name of my Savior in such a manner?

He has been suspended for 3 days.

Nemesis

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

Even though I agree with you (somewhat...) in principle. You're not helping yourself here........

Appreciate the view. But it burns me when someone like elguante tells me that our church our moral stance produces an environemnt of rape. And yet he calls me a troll... go figure.

[Jeff K.]

Don't you see to what ludicrous conclusions this takes you, Nathair? Did women in the pre-existence consent to some of them being raped? You are simply assuming what is in question here and that is that God is good in the way YOU understand as being good; that's why you accept this doctrine that evils are for a greater purpose.

It seems to me you are stating that anyone who consents to freewill consents to rape which is what is ludicrous in your conclusion. If your child leaves home as an adult and you allow them to leave rather than keep them locked up, are you consenting to rape?

The world is big out there and you know the possibility exists. Your entire line of questioning done in order to shock and without real logic, thought or philosophy, is that because free will is allowed, and bad things happen, that in effect the idea creates an environment of the rape of women, and in effect making all of us partners in the rape of women.

When people leave their homes and go out on their own, they do the same thing we did in the premortal existence. They decide to go out into the world and learn. You are pretty much stating that giving independence is the equivalent of rape. Which is a false dichotomy since freedom doesn't equal rape, except maybe to you.

Now I suggest you withdraw that rather ridiculous assertion because it proves how limited your grasp of the obvious is. Between the false dichotomy of sacred and non disclosure of the sacred being equal to shame, and freedom of choice being equal to rape, you seem to suffer from a deep loathsome need to disdain and hate anything religious in nature. Which in effect makes you some weird troll doing nothing more than provoke.

God also gave us rules to live by, which we adhere to. Now if you don't believe in God, then you don't believe in rules and therefore rape becomes one of those options one would consent to when there is freedom and no objective rules by which to live. In effect making your moral stance the acceptable one when describing and environment for rape, while we as a people of Latter-day Saints, specifically offer only the best fruits of life, having freedom and a good moral stance. You have no objective rules or truth and you accuse us and our philosophy of formenting an envrironment of rape? The patient shouldn't accuse the physician of making them sick.