Wiggle room for changing church teachings on homosexuality

[semlogo]

I would invite those involved in the thread to actually listen to the presentation, so you'll better understand what I'm talking about. It will help avoid the "aggressive ignorance" that Dr. Bradshaw mentions. Aggressive ignorance is the phenomenon of people refusing to learn the facts of the matter because they cause cognitive discomfort and don't support existing biases. No offense intended.

[krose]

A majority of the Latter-day Saints never lived the principle.

Sure, but didn't Young teach at the time that it was a requirement for the highest level of exaltation?

The comment was that people in 1880 believed plural marriage would be practiced forever, and that its reversal was unthinkable.

[semlogo]

Which is incorrect, a scholars opinions provide no wiggle room for changing any policy, no man has the power or authority to provide wiggle from for change. Only the Lord Jesus Christ has the power and authority to give any wiggle room or any change in this Church, because it is HIS Church. Men do not make the doctrine of this Church, that is the great an abominable church of Lucifer you are talking about. In this Church the Lord makes the doctrine, and until he says anything more on the subject of homosexuality no man will have any impact on the discussion at all.

That's simply not true. Don't forget the inspired words from D&C 109:

7And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best abooks words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;

Truth is truth, whatever the source. Facts are more important than "the tradition of your fathers."

[LDS Guy 1986]

We've changed our stance on many things as we've learned new facts.

Fact do not come from man, they come from the Lord. Don't confuse the mortal and flawed understanding of men with the immortal and perfect understanding of God.

He established his system for revealing his will, and it wasn't based upon scholars in laboratories making there best guess, it is based upon him calling his Prophet to reveal his will!

The only person confused here is you I believe, you confuse the understanding of men with the understanding of Heavenly Father.

[semlogo]

The Church does not recognize more than two genders; so there is no wiggle room here. On top of that, the scriptures allow the Church to easily continue with it's current doctrine even if an inborn cause for homosexuality were ever found (Ether 12:27).

Not yet, but there is room to recognize these genders, based on the evidence. Statements so far have been based on limited knowledge, and correct as far as they apply to the first two genders.

Again, I'm talking about wiggle room for change, not about what is currently taught.

[LDS Guy 1986]

That's simply not true. Don't forget the inspired words from D&C 109:

7And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best abooks words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;

Truth is truth, whatever the source. Facts are more important than "the tradition of your fathers."

But one must test their fruits and only accept what is revealed as truth, remember that the deceiver can make lies sound very convincing, it seems you put a lot more faith in man than you do in God. an unwise move, IMO.

[semlogo]

Fact do not come from man, they come from the Lord. Don't confuse the mortal and flawed understanding of men with the immortal and perfect understanding of God.

He established his system for revealing his will, and it wasn't based upon scholars in laboratories making there best guess, it is based upon him calling his Prophet to reveal his will!

The only person confused here is you I believe, you confuse the understanding of men with the understanding of Heavenly Father.

Where do you get that from? The church isn't anti-science, and I don't think any GA would make the claim you're making. Facts do indeed come from scientific studies.

[krose]

... homosexual acts are a type of fornication according to the LDS Church...

Are you sure about that? Are manual and oral forms of stimulation (as practiced by lesbians) really considered fornication?

[semlogo]

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1158

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/homofinger/homo_finger.html

Again, I would invite those discussing this with me to familiarize themselves with this information, so you can express informed opinions on this subject matter. It's difficult to refute something if you don't know what you're trying to refute.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Not yet, but there is room to recognize these genders, based on the evidence. Statements so far have been based on limited knowledge, and correct as far as they apply to the first two genders.

Again, I'm talking about wiggle room for change, not about what is currently taught.

There is no wiggle room from a professor, only a prophet can make any wiggle room, and prophets don't make wiggle room, the revealed truth of the lord will not add the confusion that the devil seeks to add to truth.

It appears you pursuits lead you away from the truths of the Restored Gospel and the Living Prophet, I warn such paths are far from the straight and narrow that lead to eternal life and they are filled with the pits and snares of the deceiver.

[semlogo]

But one must test their fruits and only accept what is revealed as truth, remember that the deceiver can make lies sound very convincing, it seems you put a lot more faith in man than you do in God. an unwise move, IMO.

When you try to place yourself on the opposite side of education and learning, you're not by default placing yourself on the same side as the Lord. That's a common mistake.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Are you sure about that? Are manual and oral forms of stimulation (as practiced by lesbians) really considered fornication?

Yes, regardless if they are performed by a same sex or opposite sex couple they are fornication. The only sexual act that is not fornication is vaginal intercourse between a man and a women who are married to each other.

[semlogo]

There is no wiggle room from a professor, only a prophet can make any wiggle room, and prophets don't make wiggle room, the revealed truth of the lord will not add the confusion that the devil seeks to add to truth.

It appears you pursuits lead you away from the truths of the Restored Gospel and the Living Prophet, I warn such paths are far from the straight and narrow that lead to eternal life and they are filled with the pits and snares of the deceiver.

The facts provide the wiggle room. Whether the prophets investigate and take advantage of it is up to them.

Please don't lecture me on faith or try to stand in the place of my bishop, which is not your place or authority. It's insulting, and it's presumptuous.

[William Schryver]

Can you really call someone's natural sexual attraction a "temptation"? It's biological. It's not from Satan. Gay men essentially have women's brains.

CFR

(Where do people come up with stuff like this?!!!!)

[LDS Guy 1986]

When you try to place yourself on the opposite side of education and learning, you're not by default placing yourself on the same side as the Lord. That's a common mistake.

I am learning constantly, the difference is I am learning through the lord not through the world, remember that we are taught by Christ to be in the world but not of it.

When the world teaches things contradictory to the Restored Gospel, we know that his is not fact or wisdom, but lies and falsehoods designed by the devil to drag us away from the Lord.

Your "facts" failed there test, they are bad fruit and unless the Lord reveals otherwise they will always be bad fruit.

[thesometimesaint]

semlogo:

Numbers are always relative to the size of the population. 1% of a billion is still a big number, but very small compared to the total. Utah of 1880 was not well populated so even 40% of the population is still not very big. The best estimates I've heard are in the 10-20% range.

I would expect the leader of any organization to be more involved in the organization and live it rules more fully than the ordinary member of that organization.

I don't see it as a radical change. Maybe that's because I've seen much more radical change in the time I've been a member than I do reading Church history. The OD1 really didn't have much of an effect on the daily lives of the overwhelming number of members who didn't practice it.

[krose]

Yes, regardless if they are performed by a same sex or opposite sex couple they are fornication. The only sexual act that is not fornication is vaginal intercourse between a man and a women who are married to each other.

I don't believe you. Fornication is sexual intercourse by definition.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The facts provide the wiggle room. Whether the prophets investigate and take advantage of it is up to them.

Please don't lecture me on faith or try to stand in the place of my bishop, which is not your place or authority. It's insulting, and it's presumptuous.

You have not facts though, you have the best guess of man. You really have a low threshold for what makes something a fact, even science wants to see a study repeated dozens of times and produce the same results before saying it is a fact.

Your facts are as flimsy as the latest trend diet, give it another 3 months and it will be nothing more than the old trend which has been replaced by a newer and better trend.

Keep your false facts, I'll stick to the revealed truth of the Lord. One study by one professor is not fact, and if you believe it is you really need to go back to high school and take some science courses again.

[Maidservant]

God allows many people go through various afflictions but he never allows any biological, physical, or emotional deformity to ever give them no option besides sinning, to do so is for him to no longer be God.

Respectfully . . . I would say that the entire history of humankind belies this assertion . . . not to mention what the rubric of the Adam and Eve initiation presents . . . not to mention some personal life experiences that have led me to conclude, by experience and personal revelation, that what you are saying here is not necessarily the truth . . . of course, I have a lot more to learn, no doubt .

On the matter of gender and homosexuality . . . I did not listen to the link . . . but I think nothing on earth whether by science or revelation, yet represents a true understanding of human sexuality . . . so we have a lot more ahead of us either way.

AS A GENERAL STATEMENT ONLY and not particular to human sexuality, to say someone is born a way, or an organic process produces a certain way, does not absolve a sin/separation scenario from God--in my opinion and understanding--since ALL human weaknesses/separations/sins ARE by flesh, and thus born or induced organically. Even to call in "environment" is to speak of influences upon the flesh (I consider the mind and emotions to be flesh).

So to me it is not a matter of whether we can "choose" something or not . . . since from what I've seen this is difficult to impossible on any matter of the flesh . . . but rather whether it is experienced as a bondage or chain or captivity or misery, from which we might hope to be delivered by the atonement of Jesus Christ. So one can then ask, is homosexuality a bondage, and is deliverance available and possible?

I don't care about normal and abnormal . . . those are social not biological categories, therefore eminently mutable.

I actually see a development in the Church's or its members approach to sin itself, not to homosexuality specifically. In years past, based on social traditions, a young women giving birth to a baby out-of-wedlock was condemned, etc etc etc. Nowadays, the Relief Society gives a baby shower. I think that's great! This young woman may still face some church discipline and spiritual work with her bishop, but the point is to help her get back where she is supposed to be on her journey of progression, not to cast her out. So I think our approach to sin has become more Christlike, but I'm not sure that the things that separate us from God will ever stop being the things that separate us from God.

However, I accept what people tell of their own story. If a person who is homosexual tells me they feel happily married (same sex partner) and have a healthy relationship with God, then I have nothing to say about that except, "I'm glad to hear that!" and invite them over for the neighborhood BBQ.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I don't believe you. Fornication is sexual intercourse by definition.

FORNICATION

See also Adultery; Chastity; Sensual, Sensuality.Unlawful sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. In the scriptures it is also occasionally used as a symbol for apostasy.

http://lds.org/scriptures/gs/fornication?lang=eng

Well, believe what you want but you are wrong.

[krose]

guy86:

Did you actually read the link you just posted? It says exactly what I did.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Respectfully . . . I would say that the entire history of humankind belies this assertion . . . not to mention what the rubric of the Adam and Eve initiation presents . . . not to mention some personal life experiences that have led me to conclude, by experience and personal revelation, that what you are saying here is not necessarily the truth . . . of course, I have a lot more to learn, no doubt .

Adam and Eve were not like us they has a specific mission from God, they were not made to sin, they chose to sin.

Adam and Eve were made perfect and innocent, they had a choice to make, leave the presence of God by partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or stay forever in a state of innocence without the ability to reproduce.

There was no force involved, nor did God desire to see them fall because he knew the tremendous suffering that would befall his children because of the fall, but he allowed Adam and Eve to make a choice, and there choice enabled us to enter into mortality and be able to progress.

Adam and Eve made a willing choice knowing the consequences and because of this the Fall happened, the wonderful things though is that because of the Fall we have the opportunity to grow and experience the things needed to be able to become like our Father in Heaven.

[LDS Guy 1986]

guy86:

Did you actually read the link you just posted? It says exactly what I did.

I did but apparently you didn't it says fornication is unlawful sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other, you said that sexual intercourse is fornication and you are wrong.

There is a big difference between what you said the definition was and what the definition actually is.

[WalkerW]

I finally listened to Dr. William Bradshaw's (of BYU

[Maidservant]

Adam and Eve were not like us they has a specific mission from God, they were not made to sin, they chose to sin.

Adam and Eve were made perfect and innocent, they had a choice to make, leave the presence of God by partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or stay forever in a state of innocence without the ability to reproduce.

There was no force involved, nor did God desire to see them fall because he knew the tremendous suffering that would befall his children because of the fall, but he allowed Adam and Eve to make a choice, and there choice enabled us to enter into mortality and be able to progress.

Adam and Eve made a willing choice knowing the consequences and because of this the Fall happened, the wonderful things though is that because of the Fall we have the opportunity to grow and experience the things needed to be able to become like our Father in Heaven.

We are all Adam and Eve. And in my mind at least there is a distinction between having "no options" and being "forced" (I understand life as full of the former, and I said nothing nor do I think it, about the latter). I won't reply individually to other things you say here, so that it won't turn into an Adam and Eve thread. I do appreciate what you have to say, it's obvious you love the gospel.