Book of Mormon Words

[Olavarria]

4 me, methodology is everything. This is one way to study BoM names...

1)Sound. Do the words sound the same?

2)Meaning and context.Is the word used in a way that shows the author might have known the meaning? This is the most important IMHO.

Here are some of the better examples:

Jershon

Zarahemla

Nephi

Sheum

[Olavarria]

bump

[Doug the Hutt]

heya Pedro,

I agree -- it's important to look at the context of the Book of Mormon to understand its words. You focused on names in the OP but that approach should be used with the book in its entirety (avoids special pleading). Understanding words in context is precisely why I'm such a stickler on the Book of Mormon mentioning metals and weapons of war. The author(s) listed "steel" alongside other known metals for contrast, comparison and clarification.

2 Nephi 5:15

15And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

Jarom 1:8

8And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war

[Tapir Whisperer]

This is an interesting topic. The question really is did Joseph know enough about Hebrew/Egyptian name origins and meanings (or have the info available to him) to have created these BoM names?

For an answer, I think it is helpful to look outside the BoM and examine the 24 "code words" that Joseph gave others to see if these names are also of a Hebrew/Egyptian origin and to see their context.

As we all know, for various reasons (which would be an interesting topic for another time), Joseph Smith did not identify many Church members by name in the D&C, but instead made up

[Jack of All Trades]

This is an interesting topic. The question really is did Joseph know enough about Hebrew/Egyptian name origins and meanings (or have the info available to him) to have created these BoM names?

For an answer, I think it is helpful to look outside the BoM and examine the 24 "code words" that Joseph gave others to see if these names are also of a Hebrew/Egyptian origin and to see their context.

As we all know, for various reasons (which would be an interesting topic for another time), Joseph Smith did not identify many Church members by name in the D&C, but instead made up

[Robert F. Smith]

That is a Smoking Gun that I have not seen addressed by FARMS or FAIR.

Hi Jack,

The code-names you see in the D&C were all given in published revelations long after Joseph had studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets in 1835-36 (under a Jewish instructor name Seixas). He had no such preparation in 1828-1829 when translating the Book of Mormon.

Those code names were given only when it appeared some members lives might be in danger if they were known by name. This was only a temporary arrangement.

[Robert F. Smith]

Zarahemla

"The name Zarahemla probably derives from the Hebrew zera??eml?h, which has been variously translated as

[Jack of All Trades]

Hi Jack,

He had no such preparation in 1828-1829 when translating the Book of Mormon.

Those code names were given only when it appeared some members lives might be in danger if they were known by name. This was only a temporary arrangement.

Citations? I always was taught that Joseph studied the scriptures and all things related thereto since he was a young boy.

[LeSellers]

I always was taught that Joseph studied the scriptures and all things related thereto since he was a young boy.

You were taught wrong.

Joseph did think a great deal about important things, but according to his mother, he was the least likely of her children to read (and about the only thing they had in their home to read was the Bible). According to his wife, he was unaware that the city of Jerusalem had a wall around it, the major theme of several chapters of Ezra-Nehemiah.

In his ministry, he was well acquainted with biblical scripture, as much as anyone of his age. But he was a generalist, not a specialist, so having the kind of code names used in the Doctrine and Covenants come from the Bible is a little hard to swallow.

Lehi

[Robert F. Smith]

Citations? I always was taught that Joseph studied the scriptures and all things related thereto since he was a young boy.

The late Professor Louis Zucker (???) of the Univ. of Utah published an article on Joseph's study of Hebrew (from his Jewish perspective) in Dialogue many years ago, here . He mentions some of the code-names also. Zucker made some errors in his article since he was an English Professor not a Hebraist, but he got the gist of it.

[SkepticTheist]

Part of the problem is, we don't really know what particles of what names or words represent Hebrew, Egyptian or some other language, or if there are "tricks" used with particles from English.

What I refer to specifically is Joseph Smith's etymology for the word "Mormon"

We are told by Joseph smith himself that the particle MOR is the English word "MORE". In this case, it is a translation.

And we are told by Joseph smith that the particle MON is an Egyptian word, meaning "Good", in this case, being a transliteration. But I have not been able to identify any egyptian word or root MON meaning "good" and I'm still looking for it.

In any case, here we have a word that was essentially made up by the spirit of the Lord in the translation process, using a piece of an English word and a piece of a presumably Egyptian word.

How many more names are "games" played on like this in the Book of Mormon?

Some words are obviously Hebrew. Others are not.

It is stuff like this that makes the whole enterprise very difficult to nail down any particular methodology, because it seems that Joseph smith never had a methodology. sometimes he would translate, sometimes transliterate, and sometimes he would even give a Greek rendering of a Hebrew or Egyptian name, such as Timothy or Simeon, or whatever. There was no clear-cut methodology or set of rules for translation and transliteration to begin with, so we are left with a hit and miss thing that is all a bunch of guesswork. Where we can nail down things and get bullseyes is great. but for the most part, I don't have much hopes of a clear cut methodology

4 me, methodology is everything. This is one way to study BoM names...

1)Sound. Do the words sound the same?

2)Meaning and context.Is the word used in a way that shows the author might have known the meaning? This is the most important IMHO.

Here are some of the better examples:

Jershon

Zarahemla

Nephi

Sheum

[LeSellers]

What I refer to specifically is Joseph Smith's etymology for the word "Mormon"

We are told by Joseph smith himself that the particle MOR is the English word "MORE". In this case, it is a translation.

And we are told by Joseph smith that the particle MON is an Egyptian word, meaning "Good", in this case, being a transliteration. But I have not been able to identify any egyptian word or root MON meaning "good" and I'm still looking for it.

I have no Egyptian whatsoever, but I am certain that MON is "good", just as MOR sounds exactly like "more".

But I far from convinced that Joseph was making a serious case that "Mormon" really came from "More" "Mon". It seems more likely that he did just what so many Saints have done with Latin "damn" v English "dam": made a convenient and erroneous etymology for rhetorical effect.

Mormon is not a combination of the non-existent (as far as the IV or ii is concerned) English and the long-forgotten Egyptian.

Lehi

[SkepticTheist]

I'd like an expert in Egyptian to tell me if MON means good.

But I think that weirder things appear in the scriptures than this, such as the splitting up of Elias and Elijah into 2 entities, or Esaias and Isaiah into two entities.

If Joseph Smith can do stuff like that, he can certainly concatenate an English word with an Egyptian word.

I take for granted the fact that Joseph Smith was naive and that the things that he did in translations were naive but brilliant in the end, because the things that he did are things that MATTER, naive or not.

Therefore, I take it naively that it is so that MOR is More and that MON is good.

But neither you nor I have evidence to make a slam shut case on this point.

I like to take Joseph Smith at his word on things, because more often than not, even after decades of digging, he ends up being right even on points where he seems very naive.

It is only a naive person that doesn't have rules placed upon him like people that are learned that comes up with the kind of outside the box thinking like splitting up Elijah and Elias into two separate entities.

People who are learned would never have allowed for that to even enter their mind, because "everybody knows" that Elias is the same as Elijah.

I have no Egyptian whatsoever, but I am certain that MON is "good", just as MOR sounds exactly like "more".

But I far from convinced that Joseph was making a serious case that "Mormon" really came from "More" "Mon". It seems more likely that he did just what so many Saints have done with Latin "damn" v English "dam": made a convenient and erroneous etymology for rhetorical effect.

Mormon is not a combination of the non-existent (as far as the IV or ii is concerned) English and the long-forgotten Egyptian.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I'd like an expert in Egyptian to tell me if MON means good.

So would I, but I believe one already has: Joseph Smith.

If Joseph Smith can do stuff like that, he can certainly concatenate an English word with an Egyptian word.

I'd agree but for the fact that there was no English word "more" when Alma baptized in the waters of Mormon. It is unlikely that "Mormon" could have been constructed from any English word, "more" or any other.

Joseph was not na

[SkepticTheist]

Agreed, but permit me be more precise in saying what I meant.

I agree that the word Mormon would not have been "Mormon" in Nephite speech. Mormon is an "English" representation of a Nephite word, composed of a piece of an English word and an "Egyptian" word.

Joseph Smith's pronunciation of "Egyptian" words, however valid they are in whatever sense, are not generally in agreement with the ancient Egyptian pronunciation for those words. Therefore, there may indeed be some word in some Egyptian dialect or Egyptian something or other that is "MON" that means "good." Or there may be a Nephite reformed Egyptian word being "MON", but at this point I don't know of any ancient Egyptian word MON that means "good." I would like to have an expert in ancient Egyptian comment on that because in my search in my Egyptian hieroglyphic dictionaries, I find no such word. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

But what I mean to say is, there was no guy in 400AD in the American Continent named "Mormon" but there was a guy named something or other who had a name that means "More Good" when pronounced in the Nephite tongue.

Now, this is what I mean by the difficulty in trying to say that the words and names that we find pronounced in the Book of Mormon were the way they were pronounced by the Nephites, and I'm saying that the Spirit of the Lord could have chose any number of ways to render these names using strange things such as a particle from an English word and a particle from an "Egyptian" word to represent the name Mormon. So this is why I say, a methodology to nail down something that is like trying to nail down jello is unlikely to work, and it is unlikely to be fruitful. There is the occasional word that is obviously a Hebrew transliterated word like Nahom or whatever. But I don't believe necessarily that the Nephites even spoke a language that was derived from Hebrew. I am more convinced that reformed Egyptian and Hebrew were passed down priestly lines, and that the more common pre-classic Mayan languages and other Mesoamerican languages were spoken by the Nephites.

This is why I think it is a mistake to try to identify place names and so forth using the pronunciation that the book of Mormon gives for them. It would be more fruitful somehow to figure out the meaning of the names in the book of Mormon and to give a Mayan pronunciation for that meaning perhaps.

So would I, but I believe one already has: Joseph Smith.

I'd agree but for the fact that there was no English word "more" when Alma baptized in the waters of Mormon. It is unlikely that "Mormon" could have been constructed from any English word, "more" or any other.

Joseph was not na

[volgadon]

ST, if Mormon is Joseph Smith's rewording of an ancient name, why not Morgood?

[SkepticTheist]

Because then it would sound like something out of King Aurthur I guess. I don't know. Do you have a suggestion as to why he did that? I stop trying to guess at why he chose to do things the way he did, and try to understand what it was that he was doing.

I find that line of inquiry more profitable. I don't see any way I can guess as to why something is a certain way.

ST, if Mormon is Joseph Smith's rewording of an ancient name, why not Morgood?

[volgadon]

Because then it would sound like something out of King Aurthur I guess. I don't know. Do you have a suggestion as to why he did that? I stop trying to guess at why he chose to do things the way he did, and try to understand what it was that he was doing.

I find that line of inquiry more profitable. I don't see any way I can guess as to why something is a certain way.

My suggestion is that Mormon is NOT a compound of English and unattested Egyptian used to replace a Nephite word with the same semantic equivalent. If Joseph Smith was translating a concept into English, why not use two English words? Otherwise, what is the point?

[SkepticTheist]

EDIT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon

You know what, I came across something that I didn't know before....

"Whether Smith was the actual author of this passage is uncertain. Official LDS Church historian B. H. Roberts removed the quote from his History of the Church compilation, saying he found evidence that W. W. Phelps wrote that paragraph and that it was "based on inaccurate premises and was offensively pedantic."^[17] LDS Church apostle Gordon B. Hinckley noted that the "more good" translation is incorrect but added that "Mormon means 'more good'" is a positive motto for members of the LDS Church."

I stand corrected...... How about that!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed

[Robert F. Smith]

EDIT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon

You know what, I came across something that I didn't know before....

I stand corrected...... How about that!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed

Correct, Ed,

I know of no ancient Egyptian word mn or mon "good." So the hybrid English-Egyptian idea is probably Phelps' idea, not Joseph's.

However, Ben Urrutia did publish a set of characters from the Book of Mormon plates HERE which Frederick G. Williams claimed were the word "Mormon,"¹ and at least one PhD in Egyptology thinks that it could very well be what it claims.

There is also Egyptian mr