The case for Book of Mormon socialism

[semlogo]

Are Greece and France?

France is doing comparatively well. Greece isn't. Congratulations - you found one failure.

[semlogo]

Yet, somehow, statists assert that giving more power to these people is good, and taking power from other people is good.

If people are people, it stands to reason that giving the definitionally limited power of running their own lives to individual people is less risky than giving unlimited power over other people's lives, especially since this unlimited power includes the monopoly on lethal force.

Lehi

I would submit that there is no one more "statist" than a right winger. A "welfare state" is far less intrusive than a police state.

[thesometimesaint]

Semlogo:

Let alone a corporate state.

http://asheham.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/hostile-takeover-michigan-will-strip-local-governments-and-corporatize-them/

[Vance]

Sorry, but you don't understand Socialism either.

Ah, the old, "if you knew what I knew, you would agree with me" mime.

Good luck with that.

[semlogo]

That I couldn't tell you, but I did find this with a quick search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg

The socialist programs of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and welfare payments total to be

19.63%

16.13%

12.79%

8.19%

56.74%

Compared to 18.74% for defense. That is 3X difference.

Edited to add,

And these social programs are of questionable Constitutionality, BUT common defense is a SPECIFIC Constitutional requirement.

Promote the general welfare - there's your constitutionality.

Ironically, European nations manage to provide those "socialist" services for ALL their citizens, and do it much more cheaplyl

Let's include all the costs of our militarization:

DOD $663.7 billion

Vets $52.5 billion

Homeland security $42.7 billion

Hardly chump change.

Bush II contributed approximately 5 trillion to the national debt, by the way, from 5.7 T to 10.6 T. That's being generous and not giving him credit for the 2009 budget, which would add another 1 + trillion. That spending was largely discretionary - wars of choice and unnecessary tax cuts, as opposed to emergency spending.

[semlogo]

Really? I thought the Nephites practiced the Law of Consecration where those who had shared out of love, not coercion, with those who had not and everyone, rich and poor, contributed what they could in labor and productivity. And those who received were grateful and didn't demand more and more. When the Nephites became wicked the leaders began to tax the people egregiously and burden them so that the elite could continue their life styles. That is not capitalism.

Exactly. They were theocratic socialists.

[Vance]

France is doing comparatively well. Greece isn't. Congratulations - you found one failure.

Wrongo!!!

http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/2010/10/15/15709701.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/20/france-riots-airports_n_769329.html

And we can add Spain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8032746/Riots-in-Spain-over-austerity-measures.html

http://247wallst.com/2010/05/12/riots-about-to-move-from-greece-to-spain/

How about England?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1273020/Greece-debt-crisis-German-outrage-strikes-markets-falling.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2010/nov/10/demo-2010-student-protests-live

[semlogo]

Well it does indeed appear to be the trend. Are socialists perhaps less interested in the church and more interested in government control?

*cough* Prop 8 *cough*

[semlogo]

Semlogo:

Let alone a corporate state.

http://asheham.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/hostile-takeover-michigan-will-strip-local-governments-and-corporatize-them/

Indeed

[Vance]

Socialism:

[semlogo]

Wrongo!!!

http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/2010/10/15/15709701.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/20/france-riots-airports_n_769329.html

And we can add Spain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8032746/Riots-in-Spain-over-austerity-measures.html

http://247wallst.com/2010/05/12/riots-about-to-move-from-greece-to-spain/

How about England?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1273020/Greece-debt-crisis-German-outrage-strikes-markets-falling.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2010/nov/10/demo-2010-student-protests-live

It's a global recession. No one is doing "well." That's why I said "comparatively." The French like to riot. They're still doing better than we are.

[Vance]

It's a global recession. No one is doing "well." That's why I said "comparatively." The French like to riot. They're still doing better than we are.

It is a global recession brought on by socialist over promising and overspending.

[Deborah]

France is doing comparatively well.

Selective Memory.

Riots in France

[Deborah]

But it is fun to watch Republican politicians pound their fists about budget cuts in discretionary spending, and never consider cutting defense. Why? Because they are in the back pocket of the Defense lobby.

No, because defense is the one responsibility the federal government has under the Constitution. Education, welfare etc should be in the purview of local communities and the states.

[Tribunal]

Again, would those who support socialism please cite one example of a functioning socialist nation? Past or present. Just one please? You can cite more than one but I'm just looking for one. Just one! Only one! One would be good!

[Deborah]

You're simply reiterating the same nonsense I already refuted from Jeff. Where do you see anything in this definition that requires Socialism to "destroy the agency of man"? It does no such thing. Of course it is theory, as I have referred to it constantly as an ideal

We aren't talking definitions, we are talking reality. The reality is that Socialism is a failed system that has destroyed incentive. Unless you have a people who believe in God and are giving because of love and not some committee's expectation you will have a society of those who will try to get more for nothing and there will be abuses.

[Deborah]

Sorry, but you don't understand the Constitution.

What are you talking about. The Constitution specifically has clauses which provide for the formation of armies and navies to maintain the defense of this nation. It doesn't specifically provide for these other things.

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

Sweden is very socialistic, does better economically than the US, is freer than the US.

[Deborah]

Sweden is very socialistic, does better economically than the US, is freer than the US.

Sweden is also a small country with a more homogenous population. The U.S. is a very large, diverse mess and it is impossible to have one set of rules that fit all. This is why the majority of power was left with the individual states, to meet the needs of their population.

[Vance]

Promote the general welfare - there's your constitutionality.

"General welfare" is a phrase used by the founders to PRECLUDE the government from helping SPECIFIC individuals.

Any check provided to an individual from the Federal Government is a VIOLATION of this principle.

Ironically, European nations manage to provide those "socialist" services for ALL their citizens, and do it much more cheaplyl

Irrelevant! They are still going broke.

Let's include all the costs of our militarization:

DOD $663.7 billion

Vets $52.5 billion

Homeland security $42.7 billion

Hardly chump change.

As a percentage it is chump change.

Bush II contributed approximately 5 trillion to the national debt, by the way, from 5.7 T to 10.6 T. That's being generous and not giving him credit for the 2009 budget, which would add another 1 + trillion.

Wrong again.

From 2000 thru 2008 the deficit increased by 1.31 T. (And that includes the effects to the economy of 9-11)

2009 thru 2011 the deficit will increase by 4.36 T.

Socialism at work.

Source http://www.davemanuel.com/history-of-deficits-and-surpluses-in-the-united-states.php

Also, you do know that spending bills must come from the House, not the President.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sweden is also a small country with a more homogenous population. The U.S. is a very large, diverse mess and it is impossible to have one set of rules that fit all. This is why the majority of power was left with the individual states, to meet the needs of their population.

Lets not forget that if the Sweden is only able to be socialistic becuase of the US being the worlds army.

With out the US I dare say the utopia in Sweden would cease to exsist in it's current state. I guess we will find out soon enough though.

[Deborah]

You don't understand Socialism if you think it has been implemented on a national level. Please tell me which country in the history of the world has allowed the common people to control the means of production of goods and services. Until you do, you have no business saying socialism is a failed system without examples.

As I already proved, some American companies operate successfully using the structure of Socialism, as did the early Christian community which Paul set up.

The United States was established as a representative republic for a reason. The "common people" as you call them are often ignorant, often selfish and often irresponsible. This nation was founded on the backs of educated and successful men who saw the chaos that was erupting from the masses in their rebellion against Britain and became involved to save the nation. They had the foresight to see what could be and laid everything on the line to organize the masses to bring about a successful rebellion. Had they not been directed by God and had evil intent we would be like any other dictatorship that has taken over the proletariat.

It is a frightening thought that the common people would control the means of production rather than those who actually have the talent and ability to organize and implement it.

[Deborah]

The general welfare clause does (not for Education though)

See Vance's comment on this. It doesn't mean what you like to think and was never intended to mean that.

[Tribunal]

Sorry, but you don't understand the Constitution.

MikeyMike, if you claim Deborah does not understand the Constitution based on her comment, then it is you who has no understanding of the Constitution. The primary purpose of the Constitution for the United States is to secure the rights of the people, and to defend the states for all threats, foreign and domestic. Defense is the purpose for the Constitution.

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

No question the US is bigger, and less homogeneous. But that can be said of every other country on earth. That however is no excuse for the banksters and their M.O.T.E's in creating this mess.

In the US Constitution the federal government has a affirmative responsibility to provide for the general welfare. It is not just a local/state responsibility.

See Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;