semlogo Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Semlogo do you ever get out of your upstairs room? The Euro is on the verge of breaking apart, Merkel with her hands on the purse strings, as Germany, the only nation that was fiscally sound has had to bail everyone out and she risks an election if she has to do it for Spain and Portugal. Greece is already protesting that they shouldn't face austerity for their measures.Defense spending is roughly 4% to 5% of GDP and has little impact on the economy.Reality once again smashes a fervant semlogo myth.What is the percentage of defense spending against our total budget? The Euro is going to break apart? The Mediterranean states were never strong - western and northern Europe are doing much better than we are, and have done so for some time.
semlogo Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Oh, THAT is why they are rioting, because they are doing so well.Got it.Oh, So that explains why the deficit grew more last MONTH, than it did in AN ENTIRE YEAR during one the Bush WAR years.Got it.Egypt isn't in Europe.Tell me, what contributions were there to the national debt from 2001 - 2009?
semlogo Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 You mean there are a few trustworthy bureaucrats?Bureaucrats are no more or less trustworthy than the average person, I would submit. People are people.
Vance Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Egypt isn't in Europe.Tell me, what contributions were there to the national debt from 2001 - 2009?Are Greece and France?
LeSellers Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 It seems their [non-socialists'] dedication to a hands-off government is shaky at best.I submit that this misrepresents the facts. I, among others, have explicitly said that the Right is also statist, and that I reject that. Limited government would keep its stinky hands off of my wallet and its stinky nose out of my bedroom and medicine cabinet. Lehi
Vance Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Bureaucrats are no more or less trustworthy than the average person, I would submit. People are people.Oh, NOT so, they CAN be trusted with Millions Billions Trillions of dollars, but regular people can't!
Vance Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 I submit that this misrepresents the facts. I, among others, have explicitly said that the Right is also statist, and that I reject that. Limited government would keep its stinky hands off of my wallet and its stinky nose out of my bedroom and medicine cabinet. Lehi
LeSellers Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Bureaucrats are no more or less trustworthy than the average person, I would submit. People are people.Yet, somehow, statists assert that giving more power to these people is good, and taking power from other people is good. If people are people, it stands to reason that giving the definitionally limited power of running their own lives to individual people is less risky than giving unlimited power over other people's lives, especially since this unlimited power includes the monopoly on lethal force. Lehi
Vance Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Tell me, what contributions were there to the national debt from 2001 - 2009?That I couldn't tell you, but I did find this with a quick search.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpgThe socialist programs of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and welfare payments total to be 19.63%16.13%12.79% 8.19%56.74%Compared to 18.74% for defense. That is 3X difference.Edited to add,And these social programs are of questionable Constitutionality, BUT common defense is a SPECIFIC Constitutional requirement.
frankenstein Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 BYU Idaho is not a government, they do not have the monopoly on lethal force that governments do. They cannot jail you. The key is in your next sentence. Lehibyu is a form of government. one would ask "what is the governing body over BYU" according to jeff where there are rules there is less freedom. I only ask if the same applies to persons at BYU or in any institution which has rules.a government can punish just as BYU can punish, no one has made mention of lethal force other than yourself, so lethal force is a non-issue. But if we are going to talk about lethal force, compulsion and non-capitalistic economics systems, what are the names of the two people in the Book of Acts who were killed for their non-compliance with the non-capitalistic system?Also, all those who rail against US Federal Gov. socialism, you do all realize that romney, and others support State Government mandated socialism. What is not good for the goose certain can not be good for the gander.
LeSellers Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Bureaucrats are no more or less trustworthy than the average person, I would submit. People are people.Yet, somehow, statists, Left and Right, assert that giving more power to these people is good, and taking power from other people is good. If people are people, it stands to reason that giving the definitionally limited power of running their own lives to individual people is less risky than giving unlimited power over other people's lives, especially since this unlimited power includes the monopoly on lethal force. Lehi
zelder Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Rather than argue over words like "socialism" or "capitalism". I think its more productive to talk about how to foster equality and good government.. What is the proper role of government? Here are some ideas that I think work and which are being violated in every country to an extreme.THE THREE COMMANDMENTS OF FREEDOMINDIVIDUAL RIGHTSOnly individuals have rights, not groups. Therefore, do not sacrifice the rights of any individual or minority for the alleged rights of groups.EQUALITY UNDER LAWTo favor one class of citizens over others is not equality under law. Therefore, do not endorse any law that does not apply to all citizens equally.FREEDOM OF CHOICEThe proper function of the state is to protect, not to provide. Therefore, do not approve coercion for any purpose except to protect human life, liberty, or property.
zelder Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 THE CREED OF FREEDOMINTRINSIC NATURE OF RIGHTS I believe that only individuals have rights, not the collective group; that these rights are intrinsic to each individual, not granted by the state; for if the state has the power to grant them, it also has the power to deny them, and that is incompatible with personal liberty. I believe that a just state derives its power solely from its citizens. Therefore, the state must never presume to do anything beyond what individual citizens also have the right to do. Otherwise, the state is a power unto itself and becomes the master instead of the servant of society. SUPREMACY OF THE INDIVIDUAL I believe that one of the greatest threats to freedom is to allow any group, no matter its numeric superiority, to deny the rights of the minority; and that one of the primary functions of a just state is to protect each individual from the greed and passion of the majority. FREEDOM OF CHOICE I believe that desirable social and economic objectives are better achieved by voluntary action than by coercion of law. I believe that social tranquility and brotherhood are better achieved by tolerance, persuasion, and the power of good example than by coercion of law. I believe that those in need are better served by charity, which is the giving of one's own money, than by welfare, which is the giving of other people's money through coercion of law. EQUALITY UNDER LAW I believe that all citizens should be equal under law, regardless of their national origin, race, religion, gender, education, economic status, life style, or political opinion. Likewise, no class should be given preferential treatment, regardless of the merit or popularity of its cause. To favor one class over another is not equality under law. PROPER ROLE OF THE STATE I believe that the proper role of the state is negative, not positive; defensive, not aggressive. It is to protect, not to provide; for if the state is granted the power to provide for some, it must also be able to take from others, and that always leads to legalized plunder and loss of freedom. If the state is powerful enough to give us everything we want, it also will be powerful enough to take from us everything we have. Therefore, the proper function of the state is to protect the lives, liberty, and property of its citizens, nothing more. That state is best which governs least.
zelder Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 you ALWAYS have a choice. You choose not to follow the gov, you go to prison.You choose not to follow God, you go to prison. If you have "no choice" with a gov. program, then you have no choice with God's program. Each entity will punish you for not acting in the affirmative to what they say is how things must be.The compulsion with the gov. or God is the essentially the same, Do what is commanded or be punished. Also, there is always, that pesky article of faith about being subject and there is that pesky D&C reference about if you are following God you have no need to break the laws of man. And what is even more interesting and pesky about those scripture/doctrine, is that neither doctrine provides "only those laws you determine are moral".I'm not confident that God is compelling people to go to prison. Everything good comes from God. Seperation from God is seperation from good things. The futher one gets from God the further one gets from good things. I believe that hell or spirit prision is simply seperation from God and His love and goodness. There is no light, there is no love there is no goodness...it's miserable. I believe they are free to leave "prison" as soon as they are willing to repent and turn to God. Sons of perdition enemies of God and are incapable of repentance so they are forever seperate from God.
Deborah Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 And whether you like it or not, the Nephites, at their most righteous, practiced theocratic socialism. At their most wicked, they were hardened capitalists. Those are the facts.Really? I thought the Nephites practiced the Law of Consecration where those who had shared out of love, not coercion, with those who had not and everyone, rich and poor, contributed what they could in labor and productivity. And those who received were grateful and didn't demand more and more. When the Nephites became wicked the leaders began to tax the people egregiously and burden them so that the elite could continue their life styles. That is not capitalism.
thesometimesaint Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Deborah:Capitalism is based on profit not prophet.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Deborah:Capitalism is based on profit not prophet.Straw man alert.
LeSellers Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 byu is a form of government. one would ask "what is the governing body over BYU" You're not using "govern" consistently. BYU is not a government. It is a private organization, it has no power to kill its clients, it cannot incarcerate them. It cannot fine them with the threat of jail if they do not pay up. It can do only what is in the contract it has with those clients, nothing more. according to jeff where there are rules there is less freedom. I only ask if the same applies to persons at BYU or in any institution which has rules.The rules are voluntary. If one does not want to obey them, he may simply not sign the contract in the first place. If the person decides he does not want to follow the rules, he may simply decide to void the contract by leaving. Laws are not voluntary, and one cannot leave to avoid them having to pay for having disobeyed them. There is no contract
thesometimesaint Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Lehi:One can always leave whatever jurisdiction they are in and try to find one more in keeping with they're desires.
WalkerW Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 A really interesting book on biblical politics is Joshua A. Berman, Created Equal: How the Bible Broke with Ancient Political Thought (Oxford University Press, 2008). This includes economics.
Nomad Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 What I find curious about this thread is that almost all the people (with one notable exception) who are arguing for BoM/D&C "socialism" are, unless I'm mistaken, all now disbelievers in Mormonism.I think that's kind of weird.
Deborah Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Capitalism is based on profit not prophet.What has that got to do with what I said?
Vance Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Lehi:One can always leave whatever jurisdiction they are in and try to find one more in keeping with they're desires.So, in other words, if we don't like the coercion we can leave?Except that if socialists get their way, the whole world will be socialist so there will be no escape.One could say that if you really want socialism, you could leave the US and move to Europe. But no, socialists are not content with the continuation of individual liberty here.I propose an experiment. Let the socialists in the US, all move to a single state (or maybe two or three). Implement your pure version of socialism. And AFTER you have demonstrated that it really works at the state level, THEN it will VOLUNTARILY spread to the rest of us.
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