errarrancy/inerrancy

[zerinus]

That's a rather Evangelical position.

I don't believe it is actually!

[LDS Guy 1986]

Perfect or not, what is classified as scripture cannot lead us astray, or cause us to err in doctrine.

This is naive, if this was true there would be no doctrinal differences between the over 1,500 denominations in the US alone. Plenty of peope are lead astray by te scriptures taken out of context. If they were "perfect" this could not happen, so they are imperfect which means they are not innerant.

Inerrancy is the creation of the Protestants because they needed something to replace the catholic priesthood they abandoned. With perfect scriptures they don't need preists to understand them. Inherency is a man made doctrine ad unscriptural.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Deleted for double post

[LDS Guy 1986]

I don't believe it is actually!

Well then you must explain what evidence you have that inerrancy is not a Evangelist position (which it is as well as a protestant made doctrine that didn't exist until after the Protestant Reformation).

Simply saying you disagree is not discussing the issue at hand.

[zerinus]

This is naive, if this was true there would be no doctrinal differences between the over 1,500 denominations in the US alone. Plenty of peope are lead astray by te scriptures taken out of context. If they were "perfect" this could not happen, so they are imperfect which means they are not innerant.

Inerrancy is the creation of the Protestants because they needed something to replace the catholic priesthood they abandoned. With perfect scriptures they don't need preists to understand them. Inherency is a man made doctrine ad unscriptural.

So how did the "iron rod" manage to lead the true follower of Christ unfailingly to the tree of life, without ever causing any of them to go astray? The scripture implies that the "rod" is unfailing. Whoever holds on to it will be led without fail to the tree of life:

1 Nephi 15

:

23 And they said unto me: What meaneth the rod of iron which our father saw, that led to the tree?

24 And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction.

What is your explanation of that?

[LDS Guy 1986]

So how did the "iron rod" manage to lead the true follower of Christ unfailingly to the tree of life, without ever causing any of them to go astray? The scripture implies that the "rod" is unfailing. Whoever holds on to it will be led without fail to the tree of life:

1 Nephi 15

:

23 And they said unto me: What meaneth the rod of iron which our father saw, that led to the tree?

24 And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction.

What is your explanation of that?

The Iron Rod is the Word of God, it's his continuing revelations to man. Just like Christ is the word, the Living Gospel, its not a book that saves you. A book is made by man telling us of Christ, the book will not be perfect since is is made by inperfect hands. Christ the living Gospel is prefect and will lead us to the tree of life every time through the Holy Ghost!

[zerinus]

The Iron Rod is the Word of God, it's his continuing revelations to man. Just like Christ is the word, the Living Gospel, its not a book that saves you. A book is made by man telling us of Christ, the book will not be perfect since is is made by inperfect hands. Christ the living Gospel is prefect and will lead us to the tree of life every time through the Holy Ghost!

I didn't say that the book will save you. I said that the book (subject to the conditions specified) cannot lead you astray. The book is part of that revelation. It is the "standardized" or "canonized" version or part of it, and therefore the most important. If heeded, it cannot lead you astray, as Paul also says:

2 Timothy

:

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I didn't say that the book will save you. I said that the book (subject to the conditions specified) cannot lead you astray. The book is part of that revelation. It is the "standardized" or "canonized" version or part of it. If heeded, it cannot lead you astray, as Paul also says:

2 Timothy

:

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It will never lead you away from God, but it isn't perfect either Brigham Young justified his priesthood ban on the seed of Cain being black verse out of Abraham.

Do you think God is saying in that verse that all black men are descendants of Cain?

It's not just the words that can be wrong but how those words can be interpreted, for them to be without error they have to be written in such a way that no one can ever misinterpret them, they have to be prefect in all aspects of the word.

Even if the message itself is without error (and it isn't since Matthew says Christ was born during the lives of two men that never lived at the same time) if the message can be misinterpreted then it is still imperfect.

[zerinus]

It will never lead you away from God, but it isn't perfect either Brigham Young justified his priesthood ban on the seed of Cain being black verse out of Abraham.

Do you think God is saying in that verse that all black men are descendants of Cain?

It's not just the words that can be wrong but how those words can be interpreted, for them to be without error they have to be written in such a way that no one can ever misinterpret them, they have to be prefect in all aspects of the word.

Even if the message itself is without error (and it isn't since Matthew says Christ was born during the lives of two men that never lived at the same time) if the message can be misinterpreted then it is still imperfect.

Ah, that is a different thing. "Wresting the scriptures" is not the fault of the scriptures, but the fault of whoever would "wrest" them. If Brigham Young failed to understand the Book of Abraham correctly, that is the fault of Brigham Young, not the fault of the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham is inerrant; but Brigham Young isn't.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Ah, that is a different thing. "Wresting the scriptures" is not the fault of the scriptures, but the fault of whoever would "wrest" them. If Brigham Young failed to understand the Book of Abraham correctly, that is the fault of Brigham Young, not the fault of the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham is inerrant; but Brigham Young isn't.

I disagree, if it can be taken out of context so easily then it obviously has errors.

[zerinus]

I disagree, if it can be taken out of context so easily then it obviously has errors.

Your judgement is manifestly in error. The Lord and His prophets have always put the blame for failure to understand the scriptures correctly on those who fail, not on the scriptures. Here are some examples:

Matthew 22

:

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mark 12

:

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God

2 Peter 3

:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Alma 13

:

20 Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.

Alma 41

:

1 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. And I perceive that thy mind has been worried also concerning this thing. But behold, I will explain it unto thee.

D&C 10

:

63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Your judgement is manifestly in error. The Lord and His prophets have always put the blame for failure to understand the scriptures correctly on those who fail, not on the scriptures. Here are some examples:

Matthew 22

:

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mark 12

:

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God

2 Peter 3

:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Alma 13

:

20 Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.

Alma 41

:

1 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. And I perceive that thy mind has been worried also concerning this thing. But behold, I will explain it unto thee.

D&C 10

:

63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.

What I am saying though, is that inerrancy means the record is perfect, something perfect cannot be misinterpreted. To be perfect it has to be written in such a clear and concise manner that no matter who reads it they could never get any other meaning from it besides the meaning the original author put into it. If this condition is not met there the record is imperfect (as Moroni declares int he title page that the BoM has errors of men in it). something imperfect has error.

[zerinus]

What I am saying though, is that inerrancy means the record is perfect, something perfect cannot be misinterpreted. To be perfect it has to be written in such a clear and concise manner that no matter who reads it they could never get any other meaning from it besides the meaning the original author put into it. If this condition is not met there the record is imperfect (as Moroni declares int he title page that the BoM has errors of men in it). something imperfect has error.

I disagree with your definition of perfect. Scripture as dictated in its purity by the Holy Ghost is perfect; but being perfect does not mean that it cannot be misinterpreted. That is your invention. It is not a revealed or scriptural doctrine.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I disagree with your definition of perfect. Scripture as dictated in its purity by the Holy Ghost is perfect; but being perfect does not mean that it cannot be misinterpreted. That is your invention. It is not a revealed or scriptural doctrine.

Inerrancy isn't scriptural either but a creation of men to replace the Catholic Priesthood when they split during the Reformations.

[zerinus]

Inerrancy isn't scriptural either but a creation of men to replace the Catholic Priesthood when they split during the Reformations.

Inerrancy is scriptural. I gave you the reference. Here it is again:

1 Nephi 15

:

23 And they said unto me: What meaneth the rod of iron which our father saw, that led to the tree?

24 And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would

never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction

.

It is an inerrant and unfailing guide in leading us back to our Father's presence. There are no exceptions.

I don't know how the Protestants define inerrancy, and I don't care. My definition is the scriptural one, as given above.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Inerrancy is scriptural. I gave you the reference. Here it is again:

1 Nephi 15

:

23 And they said unto me: What meaneth the rod of iron which our father saw, that led to the tree?

24 And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would

never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction

.

It is an inerrant and unfailing guide in leading us back to our Father's presence. There are no exceptions.

I don't know how the Protestants define inerrancy, and I don't care. My definition is the scriptural one, as given above.

Wow, this has nothing to do with scriptures at all, once again the Word of God is Jesus Christ, see John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus is perfect, the men who record his message are not, so there writings (the scriptures) are not inerrant.

[zerinus]

Wow, this has nothing to do with scriptures at all, once again the Word of God is Jesus Christ, see John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus is perfect, the men who record his message are not, so there writings (the scriptures) are not inerrant.

You are playing with words. It is disingenuous. I like the JST better:

John 1

:

1 In the beginning was the

gospel

preached through the Son. And

the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son,

and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.

That I believe is the correct and uncorrupted rendering of the original. By the "word of God" is meant the written or spoken word of God, and especially the canonized portion of it, which is the "word of God" par-excellence. That is the "rod of iron" that Lehi and Nephi saw in their visions, which if you hold on to will lead you unfailingly to the tree of life. That is what is true word of God, which is inerrant. It will unfailing lead one, if held on to steadfastly, to God's presence.

[Calm]

Wow, this has nothing to do with scriptures at all, once again the Word of God is Jesus Christ, see John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus is perfect, the men who record his message are not, so there writings (the scriptures) are not inerrant.

While not agree with zerinus' interpretation that the scriptures are inerrant originally, the "iron rod" is consistently interpreted as the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets in the LDS faith.

For example this question from the seminary manual:

How is the word of God (the scriptures and the words of the prophets) like the iron rod that Lehi saw?

Notice that in describing the rod of iron, it is not written "Word of God", but "word of God". While one may interpret this to align to the nonJST version of John 1:1, it is apparent to me at least that the grammar of this section where it does not capitalize "word of God" is not doing so. The footnotes, for example, direct one to "Gospel", not "Jesus Christ".

And let's not forget Article of Faith number 8.

[LDS Guy 1986]

While not agree with zerinus' interpretation that the scriptures are inerrant originally, the "iron rod" is consistently interpreted as the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets in the LDS faith.

The inspired teachings of the Prophets are the revealed will of Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost, this is why Christ is the Living Gospel, he is the source of our eternal truths.

[Calm]

The inspired teachings of the Prophets are the revealed will of Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost, this is why Christ is the Living Gospel, he is the source of our eternal truths.

Yes, but the scriptures and the teachings are not equivalent to Christ though they speak of him, therefore if the iron rod is referring to the scriptures and other teachings when it says "word of God" one cannot just replace that phrase with "Christ" and have the sentence retain its original meaning.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Yes, but the scriptures and the teachings are not equivalent to Christ though they speak of him, therefore if the iron rod is referring to the scriptures and other teachings when it says "word of God" one cannot just replace that phrase with "Christ" and have the sentence retain its original meaning.

This is why I feel they cannot be inerrant. Only Christ is inerrant, for the scriptures to also be inerrant they must be as perfect as the Living Gospel which is Jesus Christ.

[Calm]

This is why I feel they must be inerrant.

Not inerrant?

This is one word that can be confusing because it sounds like "in error" but means the opposite "no error".

[LDS Guy 1986]

Not inerrant?

This is one word that can be confusing because it sounds like "in error" but means the opposite "no error".

Correct again I keep forgetting to put not!

[zerinus]

Duplicate

[zerinus]

The inspired teachings of the Prophets are the revealed will of Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost, this is why Christ is the Living Gospel, he is the source of our eternal truths.

This is why I feel they cannot be inerrant. Only Christ is inerrant, for the scriptures to also be inerrant they must be as perfect as the Living Gospel which is Jesus Christ.

So what exactly is the "word of God"? Is it Christ Himself, or His word? And if it is His word, where do you find that word?