LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 You assume I have not tried, that I have not attempted to be perfect in all things. I will tell you that there are many people who try their whole life and never come to a feeling of oneness with god. I feel it is a simplistic answer to just say repent and be a good Mormon and you will get all the answers. It just does not work that way for many people even thought the church teaches it does.I am not assuming anything, it would be foolish of me to assume anything about you I don't know you. What I am saying is that if you look deep enough into your soul, and ponder the scriptures enough anyone can receive a testimony that Jesus is the Christ. For each person this process will not be the same, I quickly received a testimony of this and then struggled with that testimony for over 4 years before it was strong enough to stand alone. My wife is currently building her testimony of this (she was baptized last October), some testimony comes easy, other struggle with there testimony there entire life. I am not saying that you haven't tried, I am saying that no matter what it can be achieved, even if it takes a lifetime (and more) to achieve. In the end ever knee will bow and every tongue confess that Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. So I know for a fact that sooner or later you will gain your testimony that Jesus is the Christ.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I will take #2. it is the only plausible explanation if you want to believe in God. Also I agree it is a very bad doctrine that teaches you must somehow align your self with some specific set of rules in order to hear God. That just plain does not make sense.Could you please explain why it doesn't make sense that God would require us to live and act a certain way to feel his spirit?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 God hides, because we're his enemies. He's not our enemy, but we're his to some degree or another. So until we've had a huge change of heart, God will continue to hide. Going through the motions of being a member of the Church will not stop you from being God's enemy. Only extreme humility and a willingness to obey will result in a real testimony.If you cared about someone that you knew would never accept you for who you are but perhaps would admire you from afar, you would stay away, too.Good answer!
Mudcat Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I don't think God hides. Let me give you an example of why I think God doesn't hide. My mother, has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. She is the best Christian woman I have known... never a curse word, never angry and always looking for an opportunity to share a Christian walk through example or testimony.Her diagnosis was 9 years ago. Medication helped hold the progression of this disease at bay for nearly 7 years. Over the last two years the medications have failed and her progression with the disease has spiraled into a bit of a roller coaster. Over the last six months her condition has been a state of incoherent rage. She knows no one and stays in a constant state of anger. Her condition was well beyond bearing in an "in home" environment before my other siblings and myself were successful in persuading my father to seek a full time place for her.It has been a bit of a wild ride since then. The place that accepted her had to later reject her because she was hitting the other patients. She has been in and out of the hospital and a behavioral center in hopes of getting her on the right meds. It seems a struggle for all parties involved, myself included.So.. a Godly woman has become quite ungodly for circumstances beyond her control. Some might say God is hiding in this one particular event. I don't think so.My father was a rather taciturn man as I was a child. I won't bother with the details. Yet I feel Christ has prepared him for this particular time during the course of his life and is showing His glory here. As I have seen my father handle this adversity with such amazing love towards his own "Mrs. Mudcat" he has taken on a such different persona that I can only see God there.The place that accepted her has a waiting list and they are holding her spot until her meds get settled even though they would be better off to take the next person in line. I see God there.One of my sisters and I haven't had any sort of relationship because of a hard heart over a matter for five years. Yet somehow these circumstance have brought us into forgiveness and familial love towards one another. I see God there. Despite my mothers current attitude, the staff at these places seem to treat her with the decency afforded one in good faculties. I see God there....You might ask about natural disaster or 9/11 or something like that. But I don't think God hides in such places, in fact I think God is found there as well. He is found in the same place he has always been, that being on our knees before him as we seek for his mercy, strength and comfort for those involved.In the quantitative sense, sometimes the thought of a God who loves us all might be difficult to see.In the qualitative sense, those that are his sheep see him clearly when they choose to look.Regards,Mudcat
elguanteloko Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 If you're like me, it is likely you will never know if God really exists. But you may indeed have a precious few spiritual experiences that you may count as divine communications. They certainly may be illusions generated by your own mind, but I consciously choose to believe they come from elsewhere.Here's someone who knows himself. Congratulations.
elguanteloko Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 God hides, because we're his enemies. He's not our enemy, but we're his to some degree or another. So until we've had a huge change of heart, God will continue to hide. Going through the motions of being a member of the Church will not stop you from being God's enemy. Only extreme humility and a willingness to obey will result in a real testimony.If you cared about someone that you knew would never accept you for who you are but perhaps would admire you from afar, you would stay away, too.Examples of enemies of God: Repent, starving children!Surely, God must hide from these enemies.elguanteloko: If you can't discuss this respectfully, you will be banned from the thread.
tana Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Well in one sense yes, we are all Gods, in that we are all potential dieties, but you also said that we are not influenced by any higher power, which gives us the same practical effects as Option #1.Jason, The difference between Option #1 and option # 3 (mine) is the item of Atheism. "Silverknight" laid out a scenario that I believe is common in that when people decide god/deity is dead, it *must* follow that they adopt Atheism/materialism/causation up/man does not have an eternal soul. Again "Silverknight" mentions "monism" and the many types of world religions which hold that the soul is eternal without having a separate entity or Deity as primary creator. That is what I was trying to provide with option #3, existence without Deity.
tana Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Examples of enemies of God: Repent, starving children!Surely, God must hide from these enemies.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Examples of enemies of God: Repent, starving children!Surely, God must hide from these enemies.This is a great example of taking things out of context and playing on emotions when your can't actually refute what is being said.This is not discussion, it is playing games, we are on a discussion forum.
Monster Posted February 24, 2011 Author Posted February 24, 2011 I am not assuming anything, it would be foolish of me to assume anything about you I don't know you. What I am saying is that if you look deep enough into your soul, and ponder the scriptures enough anyone can receive a testimony that Jesus is the Christ. For each person this process will not be the same, I quickly received a testimony of this and then struggled with that testimony for over 4 years before it was strong enough to stand alone. My wife is currently building her testimony of this (she was baptized last October), some testimony comes easy, other struggle with there testimony there entire life. I am not saying that you haven't tried, I am saying that no matter what it can be achieved, even if it takes a lifetime (and more) to achieve. In the end ever knee will bow and every tongue confess that Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. So I know for a fact that sooner or later you will gain your testimony that Jesus is the Christ. If you devote yourself to any belief and study it and pray about it and throw everything you have at it to believe it is most likely you will believe it. This is not unique to Mormonism, it is what all religions say you should do to. This seems like more of a forced belief to me. Given enough effort your mind will accept whatever you want it to. A real answer would be something independent of begging and pleading for one.
Jeff K. Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Examples of enemies of God: Repent, starving children!Surely, God must hide from these enemies.God cannot hide from what he has experienced in the Atonement. It is foolish to believe so. The question is why man in his agency chooses to inflict such things upon his brethern and sisters. The photos condemn man, not God who must allow us the agency to either love or hate our fellow man. The fact you so cavalierly toss out these photos to condemn God (and saying he hides is a condemnation, though one made in ignorance), you in effect from your safe cubicle of life, far from the vicissitudes of what is out there, in fact condemn yourself in your safety. You don't realize that those photos are a reflection of your inhumanity towards man, just as they are a reflection of my inhumanity towards man for allowing such things to happen.
Monster Posted February 24, 2011 Author Posted February 24, 2011 Could you please explain why it doesn't make sense that God would require us to live and act a certain way to feel his spirit?In my original post I made this point. It makes no sense that God only reveals himself to the righteous because logically they are the ones that need him the least. It is the sinner, the outcast, the depressed, and the generally troubled souls that needs him the most. Yet we teach that you must be righteous to hear God and feel his influence. So the very ones that need him the most do not have access to him until they behave in a certain manner. I do not think that is a loving God. Jesus did not spend all his time hanging out with those that were obeying the law of Moses every jot and tittle. Yet we in the Mormon church teach that you must act and behave like a Pharisee in outward appearance then God can speak to you. I am not speaking here of purely evil people who harm others, but the individual that may struggle with some commandment or personal behavior. They are good people with issues. God should be walking with them the most not waiting for them to be perfect to speak to them
Monster Posted February 24, 2011 Author Posted February 24, 2011 Monster,Become an apatheist.I probably am. But my culture and upbringing still wants me to believe God is somewhere about listening.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 If you devote yourself to any belief and study it and pray about it and throw everything you have at it to believe it is most likely you will believe it. .The same goes for feeling the Holy Ghost you must devote your life to Christ and throw everything at it to feel te presence of God. The Holy ghost cannot dwell in unclean temples, if we willingly choose to disobey God we cannot have the guidance of the Spirit. God will never force himself on you he will simply keep knocking at the door hoping you invitie him in.
Monster Posted February 24, 2011 Author Posted February 24, 2011 Some have alluded in this post that I am waiting for God to fix all the ills in the world. That has little or nothing to do with my original post. I do not expect God to fix anything. I was just asking why he does not make himself known to us individually in a more profound and observable way. If God is there he can just state the obvious and then let us do what we will with the information. If we need help he could give us advice in a real tangible way. He would not be affecting our agency because we would sill have a choice what to do. We would just have more information. But he does not speak to many people so I go back to the belief that it simply is not important for us to hear him regularly. Which means all the behavior that people say is important is just stuff they personally think is important. Just live the 10 commandments and that would probably be fine in my mind. All the other stuff about living close to the spirit is tiresome.
Jeff K. Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I probably am. But my culture and upbringing still wants me to believe God is somewhere about listening.It is the Holy Ghost, not your culture and upbringing that give you a true testimony.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 In my original post I made this point. It makes no sense that God only reveals himself to the righteous because logically they are the ones that need him the least. It is the sinner, the outcast, the depressed, and the generally troubled souls that needs him the most. Yet we teach that you must be righteous to hear God and feel his influence. So the very ones that need him the most do not have access to him until they behave in a certain manner. I do not think that is a loving God. Jesus did not spend all his time hanging out with those that were obeying the law of Moses every jot and tittle. Yet we in the Mormon church teach that you must act and behave like a Pharisee in outward appearance then God can speak to you. I am not speaking here of purely evil people who harm others, but the individual that may struggle with some commandment or personal behavior. They are good people with issues. God should be walking with them the most not waiting for them to be perfect to speak to themI couldn't disagree more, it's not about outward appearances at all. It's about doing what Christ old us to do and obey his commandments to receive his love. (See John 15:10)If someone is only doing the motions they cannot feel the spirit either. The Church has never taught or endorsed that outward appearances are more than loving God and obeying him.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Some have alluded in this post that I am waiting for God to fix all the ills in the world. That has little or nothing to do with my original post. I do not expect God to fix anything. I was just asking why he does not make himself known to us individually in a more profound and observable way. .Do you mean why doesn't he treat us all like Thomas (thank you Mudcat for the correction!) and show us the holes in his hands, feet, and side?He doesn't reveal himself because we need to learn by faith in this life, without faith we have no agency. If God reals himself we no longer have faith but knowledge that God exists. Our progression requires us to be separated from our Heavenly Father to make the discussions required to be exalted or not without a perfect knowledge that he exists.
Deborah Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I was just asking why he does not make himself known to us individually in a more profound and observable way. And how do you know he hasn't and you just didn't recognize it. I think we have small miracles in our lives every day but most of the time we just ignore them. I find that those who believe in God see him everywhere and those who don't never recognize the little coincidences in their lives that may be messages not getting through. Now one can say one's belief or disbelief predisposes how one interprets the information but that doesn't mean that God isn't behind it, only that we more easily to recognize those things if we believe. That isn't to say that God isn't with those who don't believe but need him. The problem is they don't believe so they won't recognize when a friend calls at just the right moment or you turn down a different street at just the right time or you have a conversation with a stranger that is just the right message as all being God intervening in small ways. I've come to recognize many things I used to ignore as being more than just mere coincidence. I think when you are looking for these things you will see them.
Deborah Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Repent, starving children!Your remark is offensive not only to God and those who believe but to those little ones who suffer so, not because of God, but because of the evil men in charge of their countries. You also assume that God is not aware of them and doesn't send his angels to comfort them. But that doesn't presuppose that God will intervene when man's agency is involved. Evil will get it's due and those who suffer are a testament against those who allow such evil. It's so easy to blame everything on God because then we feel we have no responsibility.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Your remark is offensive not only to God and those who believe but to those little ones who suffer so, not because of God, but because of the evil men in charge of their countries. You also assume that God is not aware of them and doesn't send his angels to comfort them. But that doesn't presuppose that God will intervene when man's agency is involved. Evil will get it's due and those who suffer are a testament against those who allow such evil. It's so easy to blame everything on God because then we feel we have no responsibility.You knocked this one out of the park! I agree with you 100%!
Deborah Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 For those who want to sit and complain about God not caring, you can do something yourself like this couple: taking action
Jason Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 If God is there he can just state the obvious and then let us do what we will with the information. If we need help he could give us advice in a real tangible way. He would not be affecting our agency because we would sill have a choice what to do. We would just have more information.If it truly wouldn't affect your agency to see Him and know with certainty that He exists then He would appear to you, as He has to others (Saul/Paul, Alma the Younger, Joseph Smith). The test for those people was indeed what they did with the knowledge that He gave them. For the vast majority of us, however, our agency would in fact be affected by having Him supply a more tangible source of information, so He cannot. He provides us with exactly the measure of surety that we need in order to pass the test, and that measure differs from person to person.
elguanteloko Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 For those who want to sit and complain about God not caring, you can do something yourself like this couple: taking action(red herring)
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