The Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46)

[Rob Bowman]

All,

I would like to ask a question about Jesus' prophecy about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I understand that Mormons view this passage as posing a difficulty for evangelical soteriology (doctrine of salvation), since, as they see it, Jesus appears to make eternal life contingent on good works. But I would like to suggest that the passage also poses a difficulty for LDS eschatology. In this passage, those who fail to do good works to Jesus' "brethren" will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Jesus concludes, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (v. 46). I don't see how this coheres with LDS eschatology, according to which people will not be consigned to everlasting punishment for a lack of such good works. Rather, everyone, except the very small group of sons of perdition, will receive immortal life in one of three glorious heavenly kingdoms. Yet what Jesus says is not "Depart from me, you lazy bums, and go enjoy your immortal life in a lower heavenly kingdom." Nothing of the sort! Instead, he consigns them to the everlasting fire to suffer everlasting punishment alongside the devil and his angels.

How is this to be explained?

[zerinus]

All,

I would like to ask a question about Jesus' prophecy about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I understand that Mormons view this passage as posing a difficulty for evangelical soteriology (doctrine of salvation), since, as they see it, Jesus appears to make eternal life contingent on good works. But I would like to suggest that the passage also poses a difficulty for LDS eschatology. In this passage, those who fail to do good works to Jesus' "brethren" will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Jesus concludes, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (v. 46). I don't see how this coheres with LDS eschatology, according to which people will not be consigned to everlasting punishment for a lack of such good works. Rather, everyone, except the very small group of sons of perdition, will receive immortal life in one of three glorious heavenly kingdoms. Yet what Jesus says is not "Depart from me, you lazy bums, and go enjoy your immortal life in a lower heavenly kingdom." Nothing of the sort! Instead, he consigns them to the everlasting fire to suffer everlasting punishment alongside the devil and his angels.

How is this to be explained?

As follows:

D&C 19

:

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless,

it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment,

but it is written

endless torment

.

7 Again, it is written

eternal damnation;

wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold,

I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name

. Wherefore

[ELF1024]

All,

I would like to ask a question about Jesus' prophecy about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I understand that Mormons view this passage as posing a difficulty for evangelical soteriology (doctrine of salvation), since, as they see it, Jesus appears to make eternal life contingent on good works. But I would like to suggest that the passage also poses a difficulty for LDS eschatology. In this passage, those who fail to do good works to Jesus' "brethren" will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Jesus concludes, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (v. 46). I don't see how this coheres with LDS eschatology, according to which people will not be consigned to everlasting punishment for a lack of such good works. Rather, everyone, except the very small group of sons of perdition, will receive immortal life in one of three glorious heavenly kingdoms. Yet what Jesus says is not "Depart from me, you lazy bums, and go enjoy your immortal life in a lower heavenly kingdom." Nothing of the sort! Instead, he consigns them to the everlasting fire to suffer everlasting punishment alongside the devil and his angels.

How is this to be explained?

Mr. Bowman, I am going to give you the same advice that the Lord gave Oliver C;

D&C 9

6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

So tell ya what Rob, your a smart guy, work it out yourself, then pray about it. Nothing anyone here will say will convince you of anything anyway.

[Anijen]

All,

I would like to ask a question about Jesus' prophecy about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I understand that Mormons view this passage as posing a difficulty for evangelical soteriology (doctrine of salvation), since, as they see it, Jesus appears to make eternal life contingent on good works. But I would like to suggest that the passage also poses a difficulty for LDS eschatology. In this passage, those who fail to do good works to Jesus' "brethren" will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Jesus concludes, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (v. 46). I don't see how this coheres with LDS eschatology, according to which people will not be consigned to everlasting punishment for a lack of such good works. Rather, everyone, except the very small group of sons of perdition, will receive immortal life in one of three glorious heavenly kingdoms. Yet what Jesus says is not "Depart from me, you lazy bums, and go enjoy your immortal life in a lower heavenly kingdom." Nothing of the sort! Instead, he consigns them to the everlasting fire to suffer everlasting punishment alongside the devil and his angels.

How is this to be explained?

Emphasis mine; I think you make some good points however I must point out it is still good works that must be done no matter to whom it is done to. If it is to the Savior or our fellowman the conditional is the same. Please note this does not mean I am devaluing grace at all (I'm not).

Peace Anijen

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

I thought someone might go there. But I honestly don't think this addresses the question. D&C 19 still acknowledges severe suffering, punishment, and torment for the wicked, albeit not without end. But as I understand it, the folks that end up in the terrestrial kingdom will not receive such torments or punishment. Furthermore, my understanding is that less noble or hardworking Mormons, who presumably do not do the good works described in Matthew 25:31-46, will make it into the terrestrial kingdom. So I think the problem remains.

As follows:

D&C 19

:

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless,

it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment,

but it is written

endless torment

.

7 Again, it is written

eternal damnation;

wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold,

I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name

. Wherefore

[Rob Bowman]

Elf,

This is supposed to be a discussion board. Your response, frankly, is rude.

Mr. Bowman, I am going to give you the same advice that the Lord gave Oliver C;

So tell ya what Rob, your a smart guy, work it out yourself, then pray about it. Nothing anyone here will say will convince you of anything anyway.

[ELF1024]

Elf,

This is supposed to be a discussion board. Your response, frankly, is rude.

Perhaps, but no less rude than asking a question with absolutely no intention of actually accepting the answer of those your posing the question to.

[zerinus]

zerinus,

I thought someone might go there. But I honestly don't think this addresses the question. D&C 19 still acknowledges severe suffering, punishment, and torment for the wicked, albeit not without end. But as I understand it, the folks that end up in the terrestrial kingdom will not receive such torments or punishment. Furthermore, my understanding is that less noble or hardworking Mormons, who presumably do not do the good works described in Matthew 25:31-46, will make it into the terrestrial kingdom. So I think the problem remains.

Wrong again:

D&C 76

:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are

thrust down to hell

.

85 These are they who

shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection,

until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

[Vance]

zerinus,

I thought someone might go there. But I honestly don't think this addresses the question.

Well, it does.

D&C 19 still acknowledges severe suffering, punishment, and torment for the wicked, albeit not without end.

True.

But as I understand it, the folks that end up in the terrestrial kingdom will not receive such torments or punishment.

Not surprisingly you don't understand LDS theology as well as you think you do.

Those "torments or punishments" occur before the resurrection/judgment.

Furthermore, my understanding is that less noble or hardworking Mormons, who presumably do not do the good works described in Matthew 25:31-46, will make it into the terrestrial kingdom.

Irrelevant with regard to "torments or punishments".

So I think the problem remains.

The problem is you lack of understanding, not with LDS theology, so yes it remains.

But this brings up a FATAL FLAW of Evangelical theology. "Your" Jesus does not and can not suffer the punishment for your sins.

Edited to add.

I see that zerinus has supplied scriptural support for my comments.

Thanks z!

[Rob Bowman]

Elf,

"Judge not, lest you be judged" (Matt. 7:1).

Perhaps, but no less rude than asking a question with absolutely no intention of actually accepting the answer of those your posing the question to.

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

I honestly don't see how your comment below shows that anything I said was wrong.

Wrong again:

D&C 76

:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are

thrust down to hell

.

85 These are they who

shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection,

until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

[ELF1024]

Elf,

"Judge not, lest you be judged" (Matt. 7:1).

Have a nice weekend Rob.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Your response was of no help to me, because you did not explain clearly where my understanding went astray, and you did not offer any documentation from LDS sources to show that what you did say was LDS doctrine.

Well, it does.

True.

Not surprisingly you don't understand LDS theology as well as you think you do.

Those "torments or punishments" occur before the resurrection/judgment.

Irrelevant with regard to "torments or punishments".

The problem is you lack of understanding, not with LDS theology, so yes it remains.

But this brings up a FATAL FLAW of Evangelical theology. "Your" Jesus does not and can not suffer the punishment for your sins.

[ElfLord]

All,

I would like to ask a question about Jesus' prophecy about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I understand that Mormons view this passage as posing a difficulty for evangelical soteriology (doctrine of salvation), since, as they see it, Jesus appears to make eternal life contingent on good works. But I would like to suggest that the passage also poses a difficulty for LDS eschatology. In this passage, those who fail to do good works to Jesus' "brethren" will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Jesus concludes, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (v. 46). I don't see how this coheres with LDS eschatology, according to which people will not be consigned to everlasting punishment for a lack of such good works. Rather, everyone, except the very small group of sons of perdition, will receive immortal life in one of three glorious heavenly kingdoms. Yet what Jesus says is not "Depart from me, you lazy bums, and go enjoy your immortal life in a lower heavenly kingdom." Nothing of the sort! Instead, he consigns them to the everlasting fire to suffer everlasting punishment alongside the devil and his angels.

How is this to be explained?

I think this verse causes just as many problems for Evangelical Soteriology.

Rev 22

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

[zerinus]

Mr. Bowman, I am going to give you the same advice that the Lord gave Oliver C;

So tell ya what Rob, your a smart guy, work it out yourself, then pray about it. Nothing anyone here will say will convince you of anything anyway.

Perhaps, but no less rude than asking a question with absolutely no intention of actually accepting the answer of those your posing the question to.

He can ask those questions if he wants. Why should we be bothered, when the Lord has enabled us to give him such good answers?

[zerinus]

zerinus,

I honestly don't see how your comment below shows that anything I said was wrong.

This is what you said (emphasis added):

zerinus,

I thought someone might go there. But I honestly don't think this addresses the question. D&C 19 still acknowledges severe suffering, punishment, and torment for the wicked, albeit not without end. But as I understand it, the folks that end up in the terrestrial kingdom will not receive such torments or punishment. Furthermore, my understanding is that less noble or hardworking Mormons, who presumably do not do the good works described in Matthew 25:31-46, will make it into the terrestrial kingdom. So I think the problem remains.

Your understanding is wrong, according to the quote given from D&C 76.

D&C 76

:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are

thrust down to hell

.

85 These are they who

shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection,

until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

Do you understand it now?

[Rob Osborn]

All,

I would like to ask a question about Jesus' prophecy about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I understand that Mormons view this passage as posing a difficulty for evangelical soteriology (doctrine of salvation), since, as they see it, Jesus appears to make eternal life contingent on good works. But I would like to suggest that the passage also poses a difficulty for LDS eschatology. In this passage, those who fail to do good works to Jesus' "brethren" will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Jesus concludes, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (v. 46). I don't see how this coheres with LDS eschatology, according to which people will not be consigned to everlasting punishment for a lack of such good works. Rather, everyone, except the very small group of sons of perdition, will receive immortal life in one of three glorious heavenly kingdoms. Yet what Jesus says is not "Depart from me, you lazy bums, and go enjoy your immortal life in a lower heavenly kingdom." Nothing of the sort! Instead, he consigns them to the everlasting fire to suffer everlasting punishment alongside the devil and his angels.

How is this to be explained?

Rob,

This is easily explained. Those who are saved from hell recieve eternal life with heavenly father. These are the sheep found on the "right hand". Those who are not saved are the goats who are found on the left hand are thus cast out into outer darkness- into hell.

Here- (D&C 29:27-28)

27And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;

28Wherefore I will say unto them

[LifeOnaPlate]

Elf,

"Judge not, lest you be judged" (Matt. 7:1).

Ooooh, but now you're judging him for judging! (You're also making a thread in which we are supposed to judge hypothetical people by agreeing with you that such folks will be thrust to an everlasting burning fire. Hypocritical? I better not say, lest I be judging!)

[frankenstein]

Rob i think it can be explained using the Bible only,

How long was the unjust servant delivered to the tormentors? And what did Jesus say "My Father shall do"

To keep you from having to look it up, Jesus said they were delivered "UNTIL" a specified time.

[ElfLord]

This is what you said (emphasis added):

Your understanding is wrong, according to the quote given from D&C 76.

D&C 76

:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are

thrust down to hell

.

85 These are they who

shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection,

until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

Do you understand it now?

Might I add that this is perfectly illustrated by Paul...

1 Cor 5

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father

[Vance]

Rob,

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?

If so, you weren't paying attention.

Alma 40:9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.

10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

No, I still don't see it. In fact, you seem to be distorting your own scripture, since your quotation from D&C 76 cuts off in the middle of a sentence and finishing the thought makes a difference. D&C 76 does not say that the people in the terrestrial kingdom will be thrust down to hell. It says this about those who go to the telestial kingdom. D&C 76:86 is not referring to these people as in the terrestrial kingdom, but as being ministered to by those who go to the terrestrial kingdom. Continuing the quotation through verses 87-90 would make that reasonably clear.

This is what you said (emphasis added):

Your understanding is wrong, according to the quote given from D&C 76.

D&C 76

:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are

thrust down to hell

.

85 These are they who

shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection,

until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

Do you understand it now?

[Rob Bowman]

frankenstein,

This doesn't address my point at all. And as for your suggestion that this text implies that the torment won't last forever, the fact is that the debt is so huge that the unjust servant will never pay it off. That's the point of the astronomical sum.

Rob i think it can be explained using the Bible only,

How long was the unjust servant delivered to the tormentors? And what did Jesus say "My Father shall do"

To keep you from having to look it up, Jesus said they were delivered "UNTIL" a specified time.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

I see no serious answer here.

Rob,

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?

If so, you weren't paying attention.

Alma 40:9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.

10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection

[Vance]

Vance,

I see no serious answer here.

Rob,

Like I said,

Of course, if you are only looking for flaws, you would miss these important parts anyway.