Apocalypse of Abraham

[consiglieri]

There is a thread on another board regarding the strange wording in the explanation to Facsimile Number 2 of the Book of Abraham regarding different heavenly bodies receiving their light "through the medium" of (insert strange sounding word).

I posted some thoughts, and since I went to so much trouble, thought I would post them here below for anybody who may be interested.

________________________

I do not believe that there is any "medium" by which light is transmitted from one heavenly body to another, although I hold out the possibility I could be wrong on this, unless we are to speak in the most elementary terms, such as the sun shining its light on our planet. This does not seem to be what the passage is talking about, though.

I also do not think this is some sort of ancient way of transmitting eternal scientific truths in pre-scientific language (i.e., "gravity).

I do believe, however, that what is represented is the way in which Abraham may have viewed cosmology, which has about as much to do with modern conceptions as the creation account in the Book of Genesis.

Although I confess the language used to be strange to modern ideas, I also find it curious that the same phrase is found in the Apocalypse of Abraham to describe power being transferred from God to lower beings, and perhaps lower worlds.

For what it's worth . . .

Apocalypse of Abraham

Chapter 10

1. And it came to pass when I heard the voice pronouncing such words to me

2. that I looked this way and that. And behold there was no breath of man. And my spirit was amazed, and my soul fled from me. And I became like a stone, and fell face down upon the earth, for there was no longer strength in me to stand up on

3. the earth. And while I was still face down on the ground, I heard the voice speaking, "Go, Iaoel of the same name, through the meditation of my ineffable

4. name, consecrate this man for me and strengthen him against his trembling."

The angel he sent to me in the likeness of a man came, and he took me by my right

5. hand and stood me on my feet. And he said to me, "Stand up, Abraham, friend

6. of God who has loved you, let human trembling not enfold you! For lo! I am sent to you to strengthen you and to bless you in the name of God, creator of heavenly

7.(8.) and earthly things, who has loved you. Be bold and hasten to him. I am Iaoel and I was called so by him who causes those with me on the seventh expanse, on the firmament, to shake, a power through the medium of his ineffable name in

9. me. I am the one who has been charged according to his commandment, to restrain the threats of the living creatures of the cherubim against one another, and I teach those who carry the song through the medium of man

[Mortal Man]

There is a thread on another board regarding the strange wording in the explanation to Facsimile Number 2 of the Book of Abraham regarding different heavenly bodies receiving their light "through the medium" of (insert strange sounding word).

The particular wording is peculiar to the translator.

...I also find it curious that the same phrase is found in the Apocalypse of Abraham to describe power being transferred from God to lower beings, and perhaps lower worlds.

...

Call me old fashioned, but this sounds similar to the Book of Abraham's reference to "governing planets."

These ideas go back to Plato, who predates the Apocalypse of Abraham.

All this seems so similar to the Book of Abraham's outlandish explanations to Facsimile 2, not to mention that strange order of creation in chapter 4, that I would have to suspect Joseph Smith of cribbing . . . except for the fact that the Apocalypse of Abraham wasn't printed in English until many years after Joseph Smith's death.

On the other hand, Taylor's book was printed in English not many years prior to the Book of Abraham and was readily available for cribbing, along with many other similar works.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The particular wording is peculiar to the translator.

These ideas go back to Plato, who predates the Apocalypse of Abraham.

On the other hand, Taylor's book was printed in English not many years prior to the Book of Abraham and was readily available for cribbing, along with many other similar works.

MM beat me to it. JS obviously cribbed from other books including the AofA.

[changed]

There is a thread on another board regarding the strange wording in the explanation to Facsimile Number 2 of the Book of Abraham regarding different heavenly bodies receiving their light "through the medium" of (insert strange sounding word).

We know there is some kind of veil, perhaps the medium that things travel through, is the veil?

[zerinus]

There is a thread on another board regarding the strange wording in the explanation to Facsimile Number 2 of the Book of Abraham regarding different heavenly bodies receiving their light "through the medium" of (insert strange sounding word).

I posted some thoughts, and since I went to so much trouble, thought I would post them here below for anybody who may be interested.

________________________

I do not believe that there is any "medium" by which light is transmitted from one heavenly body to another, although I hold out the possibility I could be wrong on this, unless we are to speak in the most elementary terms, such as the sun shining its light on our planet. This does not seem to be what the passage is talking about, though.

I also do not think this is some sort of ancient way of transmitting eternal scientific truths in pre-scientific language (i.e., "gravity).

I do believe, however, that what is represented is the way in which Abraham may have viewed cosmology, which has about as much to do with modern conceptions as the creation account in the Book of Genesis.

Although I confess the language used to be strange to modern ideas, I also find it curious that the same phrase is found in the Apocalypse of Abraham to describe power being transferred from God to lower beings, and perhaps lower worlds.

For what it's worth . . .

Have you considered that the "light" he is referring to might be spiritual light, rather than natural light?

[ElfLord]

Have you considered that the "light" he is referring to might be spiritual light, rather than natural light?

Stars do Sing to each other by means of other eminations which cannot be picked up by human eyes.

Tuning an 'Ear' to the Music of Gravitational Waves

[Mortal Man]

MM beat me to it. JS obviously cribbed from other books including the AofA.

"Cribbed" is the wrong word to describe what Joseph Smith did in producing the BoM and BoA. Joseph did not crib, copy or plagiarize anything (other than a KJV bible) in producing his translations. Apologists employ those terms in their efforts to mischaracterize critics' arguments. The BoA is not a rip-off of some other book(s), rather it is a fulfillment of the expectations and ideas already present in the religious milieu in which it came forth. Similarly, the BoM is a fulfillment of the widely held belief that the American Indians are of Hebrew origin. The BoM is effectively the sequel to View of the Hebrews.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"Cribbed" is the wrong word to describe what Joseph Smith did in producing the BoM and BoA. Joseph did not crib, copy or plagiarize anything (other than a KJV bible) in producing his translations. Apologists employ those terms in their efforts to mischaracterize critics' arguments. The BoA is not a rip-off of some other book(s), rather it is a fulfillment of the expectations and ideas already present in the religious milieu in which it came forth.

I was just using your words. You claimed that book X was ready for cribbing.

Similarly, the BoM is a fulfillment of the widely held belief that the American Indians are of Hebrew origin. The BoM is effectively the sequel to View of the Hebrews.

If that is how you want to see that is fine with me.

[consiglieri]

"Cribbed" is the wrong word to describe what Joseph Smith did in producing the BoM and BoA. Joseph did not crib, copy or plagiarize anything (other than a KJV bible) in producing his translations. Apologists employ those terms in their efforts to mischaracterize critics' arguments. The BoA is not a rip-off of some other book(s), rather it is a fulfillment of the expectations and ideas already present in the religious milieu in which it came forth. Similarly, the BoM is a fulfillment of the widely held belief that the American Indians are of Hebrew origin. The BoM is effectively the sequel to View of the Hebrews.

Hi, Mortal Man!

Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your link to the Taylor book, but as it goes to the whole book, wasn't able to read it in short order.

On the other board, Aristotle Smith has proposed a different book as the source, and then was good enough to link to a page on which excerpts were printed.

I can see why some parts of the Book of Abraham could be considered "fulfillments" of then-current expectations, but I didn't see anything in it relating to these particular connections.

Was there anything specific in the Taylor book that sounds like the BoA/AoA connections I suggest?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mortal Man]

Hi, Mortal Man!

Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your link to the Taylor book, but as it goes to the whole book, wasn't able to read it in short order.

On the other board, Aristotle Smith has proposed a different book as the source, and then was good enough to link to a page on which excerpts were printed.

I can see why some parts of the Book of Abraham could be considered "fulfillments" of then-current expectations, but I didn't see anything in it relating to these particular connections.

Was there anything specific in the Taylor book that sounds like the BoA/AoA connections I suggest?

See here (my previous "Plato" link).

[Palerider]

There is a thread on another board regarding the strange wording in the explanation to Facsimile Number 2 of the Book of Abraham regarding different heavenly bodies receiving their light "through the medium" of (insert strange sounding word).

I posted some thoughts, and since I went to so much trouble, thought I would post them here below for anybody who may be interested.

________________________

I do not believe that there is any "medium" by which light is transmitted from one heavenly body to another, although I hold out the possibility I could be wrong on this, unless we are to speak in the most elementary terms, such as the sun shining its light on our planet. This does not seem to be what the passage is talking about, though.

I also do not think this is some sort of ancient way of transmitting eternal scientific truths in pre-scientific language (i.e., "gravity).

I do believe, however, that what is represented is the way in which Abraham may have viewed cosmology, which has about as much to do with modern conceptions as the creation account in the Book of Genesis.

Although I confess the language used to be strange to modern ideas, I also find it curious that the same phrase is found in the Apocalypse of Abraham to describe power being transferred from God to lower beings, and perhaps lower worlds.

For what it's worth . . .

Abraham is subsequently caught up to stand on the top of the seventh firmament, from which he can look down to the lower firmaments. When Abraham is shown the fifth firmament, which is where the stars are located, he has this to say:

Call me old fashioned, but this sounds similar to the Book of Abraham's reference to "governing planets."

Also, Explanation 2 situates the revelation to Abraham at a time he was offering sacrifice to the Lord, which is also exactly where the Apocalypse of Abraham situates this revelation to Abraham.

It also sounds reminiscent of the creation account in the Book of Abraham, which states:

This is getting a little too close for comfort.

Here is a link for anybody who wants to check it out for themselves.

http://www.pseudepig...a.com/pseudepig ... raham.html

All this seems so similar to the Book of Abraham's outlandish explanations to Facsimile 2, not to mention that strange order of creation in chapter 4, that I would have to suspect Joseph Smith of cribbing . . . except for the fact that the Apocalypse of Abraham wasn't printed in English until many years after Joseph Smith's death.

There are many more connections between the two books that strike me as significant, and that continue to cause me to scratch my head, but these seem to be the ones germane to this thread.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Consiglieri,

Are you familiar with Alexander Neibaur (Jewish convert fluent in Hebrew) and his influence on Joseph? I would have to check the timelines for his influence and when the B of A was produced but it is said he had an extraordinary collection of Hebrew books that he translated for Joseph.

The Kabbalah connection is also very interesting..........

[Mortal Man]

Are you familiar with Alexander Neibaur (Jewish convert fluent in Hebrew) and his influence on Joseph? I would have to check the timelines for his influence and when the B of A was produced but it is said he had an extraordinary collection of Hebrew books that he translated for Joseph.

The Kabbalah connection is also very interesting..........

Yes it is.

[Kevin Christensen]

Consiglieri,

Are you familiar with Alexander Neibaur (Jewish convert fluent in Hebrew) and his influence on Joseph? I would have to check the timelines for his influence and when the B of A was produced but it is said he had an extraordinary collection of Hebrew books that he translated for Joseph.

The Kabbalah connection is also very interesting..........

"It is said..." by whom? And what was in the extraordinary collection? What happened to it? Who saw it? Specificity helps.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[zerinus]

Stars do Sing to each other by means of other eminations which cannot be picked up by human eyes.

Tuning an 'Ear' to the Music of Gravitational Waves

That does sound rather romantic, I agree; but it is not quite what I had in mind!

[volgadon]

Consiglieri,

Are you familiar with Alexander Neibaur (Jewish convert fluent in Hebrew) and his influence on Joseph? I would have to check the timelines for his influence and when the B of A was produced but it is said he had an extraordinary collection of Hebrew books that he translated for Joseph.

The Kabbalah connection is also very interesting..........

Do you mean the convert to Christianity from a haskalah background?

The most extraordinary aspect of his collection of Hebrew books is that all the hundred volumes (valuable ones at that) it should have consisted have vanished without a trace, nor were they ever much mentioned in his lifetime.

[volgadon]

"It is said..." by whom? And what was in the extraordinary collection? What happened to it? Who saw it? Specificity helps.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Exactly. Palerider makes it sound like it rivals Gershom Scholem's collection.

[volgadon]

Yes it is.

Also interesting is that what is known as the King Follet Discourse and the Zohar differ fundamentally and irreconciably on the manner of creation.