Was Jesus married?

[kamenraider]

LINK #1

LINK #2

[stYro]

A) the office of rabbi did not exist yet.

B) marriage was not a default condition until the middle ages.

Under Jewish custom, the entire community was to drop everything to go take care of the dead unless there was an organised group dedicated to such matters.

It [anointing a body for burial] was something anyone could do for another.

Hi Volgadon,

My mother is Jewish and a rather serious student of religion, and she just happened to call as I was starting to write a reply to you.

She told me that in Jesus' day, "rabbi" indicated "a married elder", but obviously not "Elder" in the Mormon sense.

Also, she said that the primary responsiblity for a dead body lay with the closest available family members (in other words, they were the only ones who could actually claim the body), and that anointing the deceased with oil for burial was something only a spouse or immediate family member would have done.

Pardon me if I don't do the multiple quote thing; I haven't figured out an efficient way yet.

The Virgin Mary concept does not challenge male authority, and her quasi-divinity/perpetual Virginity is not supported by the New Testament. The religion which came up with that concept also has an unsupported tradtion of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute. Most women fall in between these two exaggerated extremes.

I was unaware of Migdal Nunia, and that could perhaps be a root for the word "Magdalene". But then I think she'd be called "Mary OF Magdalene", like "Jesus OF Nazareth" as opposed to "Jesus Nazareth" or "Jesus Nazarene" (which would have a different meaning). Note that I do not speak Hebrew, so if you can correct my assumptions here feel free.

In a paper entitled "Teacher and Rabbi in the New Testament Period", by Howard Mare, the author states that Rabonni as used in John 20:16 is a term of endearment.

Your counter-example of Paul and persecution is a good one.

Your "as does blowing smoke" argument isn't as strong as some of your others.

Shalom,

stYro

[volgadon]

Hi Volgadon,

My mother is Jewish and a rather serious student of religion, and she just happened to call as I was starting to write a reply to you.

Very nice. I BTW am a native Israeli.

She told me that in Jesus' day, "rabbi" indicated "a married elder", but obviously not "Elder" in the Mormon sense.

Rabbi was a honorific, which could also be applied to a teacher. Had nothing to do with marital status, though being unmarried was uncommon,.

Also, she said that the primary responsiblity for a dead body lay with the closest available family members (in other words, they were the only ones who could actually claim the body),

Responsibility lay with whoever was able to care for the dead body. All were to go and tend to the body, or organise a body of men to do so. Also, tending the dead was considered the highest form of gemilut hassadim, which were acts of piety and lovingkindness.

and that anointing the deceased with oil for burial was something only a spouse or immediate family member would have done.

Whilst back then it was something typically done by the family, it did not have to be done by them.

Pardon me if I don't do the multiple quote thing; I haven't figured out an efficient way yet.

No worries.

The Virgin Mary concept does not challenge male authority, and her quasi-divinity/perpetual Virginity is not supported by the New Testament. The religion which came up with that concept also has an unsupported tradtion of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute. Most women fall in between these two exaggerated extremes.

I don't see why a wife would, as she was to be subservient to the husband.

I was unaware of Migdal Nunia, and that could perhaps be a root for the word "Magdalene".

I don't know of any other Migdal mentioned in the sources. It was a major city in the right time and at the right area. Magdala is the Aramaic form of Migdal.

But then I think she'd be called "Mary OF Magdalene", like "Jesus OF Nazareth" as opposed to "Jesus Nazareth" or "Jesus Nazarene" (which would have a different meaning). Note that I do not speak Hebrew, so if you can correct my assumptions here feel free.

Inconsisent stylistic word choice. The form -ene is used for the same things as the construct X of Y.

In a paper entitled "Teacher and Rabbi in the New Testament Period", by Howard Mare, the author states that Rabonni as used in John 20:16 is a term of endearment.

He seems closer to the mark when he calls it caritative.

Your counter-example of Paul and persecution is a good one.

Thank you.

Your "as does blowing smoke" argument isn't as strong as some of your others.

Shalom,

stYro

I was teasing.

[David T]

The idea arises from the LDS doctrines that you must be married to attain the Celestial Kingdom

Correction: That is not LDS doctrine. Exaltation and the Celestial Kingdom are not the same thing.

[stYro]

Hi Volgadon,

I enjoyed your post, and appreciate the education. Obviously I had some misconceptions... but still think the evidence at this point rules out neither possibility.

A Sabra?? Cool! I completely missed the accent. But then, I also missed the tease (very well done, by the way!).

stYro

[Ron Beron]

If you are asking that question in the context of Mormon theology and doctrine, I don't think it is the official teaching of the LDS Church that Jesus was married; but if you are just sounding out people's speculative opinions, they are free to have whatever opinion they want on the subject.

While not doctrine there is a lot of speculative theology that has gone on.

• Apostle Orson Pratt pointed to Psalms 45:9 as evidence for the marriage of the Son.

• Orson Pratt, The Seer (Washington, District of Columbia: Orson Pratt, 1853-1854; facsimile published in Salt Lake City: Eugene Wagner, 1960),Apostle Hyde and Counselor Joseph F. Smith employed the account of the wedding at Cana (John 2:1-12) and they also utilized a portion of the resurrection narrative of the Fourth Gospel (John 20:8-18)

• Orson Hyde, "The Marriage Relations, October 6, 1854,? a lecture at general conference, in Journal of Discourses, by Brigham Young, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, His Two Counselors [sic], the Twelve Apostles, and Others, 26 vols. (London: Latter-day Saint Book Depot, 1854-1886), 2:81-82; Joseph F. Smith, in ?Wilford Woodruff?s Journal Entry for July 22, 1883,? Wilford Woodruff?s Journal, 9 vols. (Midvale, Utah: Signature Books, 1985), 8:187.

• According to Apostle Wilford Woodruff (1839), Counselor Joseph F. Smith used three additional biblical passages to help him prove that Jesus was both a husband and a father in the flesh.

• Wilford Woodruff's Journal Entry for July 22, 1883, in Wilford Woodruff?s Journal, 8:187. The entry reads, ?22 Sunday . . . Evening Meeting. Prayer By E Stephenson. Joseph F Smith spoke One hour & 25 M. He spoke upon the Marriage in Cana at Galilee. He thought Jesus was the Bridgegroom and Mary & Martha the brides. He also refered to Luke 10 ch. 38 to 42 vers, Also John 11 ch. 2 & 5 vers John 12 Ch 3d vers, John 20 8 to 18. Joseph Smith spoke on these passages to show that Mary & Martha manifested much Closer relationship than Merely A Believer which looks Consistet. He did not think Jesus who descended through Poligamous families from Abraham down & who fulfilled all the Law even baptism by immersion would have lived and died without being married? [sic].

• There is also some evidence that Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (1910) also taught that the Son of God was married, but there is no known evidence that he ever taught this doctrine in a public setting.

[Thunderfire]

Thunder, I am curious if the marriage situation is so important to mention how many of the apostles marital situation was described in the New Testament? I have asked this already, but I did not see anyone answer it yet.

It's a great question and the only apostle we KNOW was married is Peter (because Jesus healed his mother-in-law). In this thread it was mentioned that the Jews believed they must be married. In this I partially agree, but not for the reasons mentioned. From my understanding, the ancient Jews had no concept of "personal salvation" as we know it prior to Jesus and his message. This is one of the reasons for all the different genealogies mentioned. A man needed to have a son in order to live on (meaning, the people didn't necessarily look back through the generations, but forward that each may live on through successive generations). It's a difficult concept for me to get my brain around.

But Paul (who was an expert on the law and the ways of the Jews) seemed to turn this upside down. In 1st Corinthians (7:25-38) he speaks of the problem with marriage. "An unmarried man is concerned with the affairs of the Lord. But a married man is concerned with the affairs of the world and how to please his wife." (verse 32-33) He does not speak against marriage, but plainly states that marriage restricts the person from living with an undivided devotion to the Lord.

If marriage was that important for inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom (and if the Lord was married), do we really believe Paul would be speaking against it through his

[Jeff K.]

When Jesus dated, did he ask himself "What would Jesus do?"

Is it important?

[Sevenbak]

Since this is speculative, a couple of fun things:

1. Joseph Smith pointed out an individual who was a descendant of Christ. (don't have the reference, just from memory)

I'd love to see that reference. Anyone?

[LeSellers]

When Jesus dated, did he ask himself "What would Jesus do?"

As a practicing, observant I Jew, He would not have dated. His (adoptive) father would have chosen His bride for Him at about age 15.

They took the assertion, "Today I am a man," very seriously.

Lehi

[erichard]

It's a great question and the only apostle we KNOW was married is Peter (because Jesus healed his mother-in-law). ...

Notice these verses, written about the crucifixion:

55 And MANY WOMEN were there beholding afar off,

which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him

:

56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee

[volgadon]

As a practicing, observant I Jew, He would not have dated. His (adoptive) father would have chosen His bride for Him at about age 15.

They took the assertion, "Today I am a man," very seriously.

Lehi

Rabbi Akiva dated.

You don't get much more observant, practicing Jew than that.

[WalkerW]

Rabbi Akiva dated.

You don't get much more observant, practicing Jew than that.

Yeah, but he was some Gnostic Jew who thinks we will make worlds in the afterlife. What does he know?

[volgadon]

Yeah, but he was some Gnostic Jew who thinks we will make worlds in the afterlife. What does he know?

That ignoramus even believed in two powers in heaven.

I should add to r. Akiva's example the 2nd Temple holiday of Tu B'Av in which guys went out to pick wives for themselves, and the story of the weasel and the well, in which someone rescues a girl from a well on the condition that she would marry him.

[stYro]

Does anyone know if the story that the Merovingians were descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene is a real, ancient legend or if it is a modern fiction? If it is real, that would lend a little credibility in my mind.

I don't know about the Merovingians, but in 1980 or '81 I was told by a French history teacher that one of the secret heresies of the Cathars was that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married.

A quick google search backs this up:

http://www.cathar.in..._propaganda.htm ; scroll down about halfway and look in the blue box on the right-hand side. Includes a quote from the 13th century.

stYro

[kamenraider]

Well, I guess Rob didn't care to do more than fly by, drop his original post bomb, and keep on going. He must be so confident that he's right that he doesn't value reasoning with posters here that have different views on the topic.

[Nathair/|\]

I don't know about the Merovingians, but in 1980 or '81 I was told by a French history teacher that one of the secret heresies of the Cathars was that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married.

A quick google search backs this up:

http://www.cathar.in..._propaganda.htm ; scroll down about halfway and look in the blue box on the right-hand side. Includes a quote from the 13th century.

stYro

Works for me. Are we starting to simmer yet?

[iamse7en]

The best case I have read for the case that Jesus was married, is Ogden Kraut's pamphlet, Jesus Was Married. Really good and comprehensive case. I think he was definitely married after having researched both sides of the arguments.