Ezra Taft Benson, The John Birch Society, and the Peace Symbol

[USU78]

Sometimes Saint is quoting the lawyer who justly shamed Joseph McCarthy during the infamous televised inquiry into whether the Army was a hot-bed of Communism.

Yeah, it's a funny thing . . . it was a setup, done for effect, and the guy who was being accused by McCarthy's people was who they said he was.

Methinks many think by employing the "at long last," they add authority to their statements.

It is amusing that those same folks probably forget that the House Unamerican Activities Committee had nothing to do with McCarthy, who was the junior senator from Manysota, other than they were both active at the same time.

[Lamanite]

I think if we (faithful Mormons) all took a deep breath and made an appeal to objectivity we could probably agree on a couple things.

1. President Benson was a man worthy of both adoration and emulation. His discipleship was authentic and above reproach.

2. He made mistakes. Sometimes his politics and pride led him to extremes. Before you CFR me...we can all get together and go through DOM by Prince. I think there are several examples that support my second assertion. Also, if we were to be a bit more esoteric; how could a man give such insightful and penetrating views on pride unless he himself suffered and repented (progressive) from it? I don't think anyone could speak on pride like he did unless it was from the pulpit of experience.

I love that we are all wonderfully flawed and imperfect. It makes life, love, and forgiveness possible.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[selek]

Before you CFR me...we can all get together and go through DOM by Prince.

Your referencing a musician forced to repeatedly change his name by contract issues in order to prove that the Prophet was flawed?

This I GOTTA see.....

[Mike Reed]

Why else bring it up? LDS Prophet wrong on moonmen = LDS Prophet not prophet and, therefore, all LDS prophets are not prophets and, therefore, LDS Church is a sham.

That is not the same thing as saying that they are generally wrong. It could simply mean that their claim for revelation is unreliable. Nor does it mean that the "anti-Mormons" have made their inference from a single example. On the contrary, the "anti-Mormons" you speak of make this conclusion (that they are unreliable leaders) based on several examples.

That is the logic of bringing up moonmen in the first place. This is what the Godbeites were saying in the last century and the one before it. That's what the Tanners have been saying for 40 years. That's the point of Sunstone's efforts.

Then great. It should be easy for you to provide the quotes then.

Pity that last, as I was one of them early on, and they used to make room for all opinions. Not so any more.

Right. Tell that to Robert Rees, Claudia Bushman, Richard Bushman, Blair Hodges, Jana Ries, Margaret Young, Darius Gray, etc. More unwarranted inferences and generalizations, eh?

[Lamanite]

Your referencing a musician forced to repeatedly change his name by contract issues in order to prove that the Prophet was flawed?

This I GOTTA see.....

I had to read that twice before I got it. Now I have this weird picture of a Colonel Sanders looking guy wearing a purple rain outfit at a Brich meeting drinking DOM perignon!!!

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Mike Reed]

I think if we (faithful Mormons) all took a deep breath and made an appeal to objectivity we could probably agree on a couple things.

1. President Benson was a man worthy of both adoration and emulation. His discipleship was authentic and above reproach.

2. He made mistakes. Sometimes his politics and pride led him to extremes. Before you CFR me...we can all get together and go through DOM by Prince. I think there are several examples that support my second assertion. Also, if we were to be a bit more esoteric; how could a man give such insightful and penetrating views on pride unless he himself suffered and repented (progressive) from it? I don't think anyone could speak on pride like he did unless it was from the pulpit of experience.

I love that we are all wonderfully flawed and imperfect. It makes life, love, and forgiveness possible.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Well said, Lamanite.

[Lamanite]

That is not the same thing as saying that they are generally wrong. It could simply mean that their claim for revelation is unreliable. Nor does it mean that the "anti-Mormons" have made their inference from a single example. On the contrary, the "anti-Mormons" you speak of make this conclusion (that they are unreliable leaders) based on several examples.

Then great. It should be easy for you to provide the quotes then.

Right. Tell that to Robert Rees, Claudia Bushman, Richard Bushman, Blair Hodges, Jana Ries, Margaret Young, Darius Gray, etc. More unwarranted inferences and generalizations, eh?

I'd like to challenge jurors number 4 and 7. I have seen them both eat BBQ ribs and it was a mess(seriously). Also, I don't think men of God would have salted their food the way they did or played with children or allowed the Hip Hop music to be played at the BBQ, et al.!

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Mike Reed]

I'd like to challenge jurors number 4 and 7. I have seen them both eat BBQ ribs and it was a mess(seriously). Also, I don't think men of God would have salted their food the way they did or played with children or allowed the Hip Hop music to be played at the BBQ, et al.!

Big UP!

Lamanite

Blair, a messy eater? Good to know. This whole time I assumed he was a man of integrity.

[Lamanite]

Blair, a messy eater? Good to know. This whole time I assumed he was a man of integrity.

Well I don't want to reveal too much on the internet...but while traveling with blair he may have shared that he attended a Rock and/or Roll concert. U2 or something???? How a professed Christian act in such a way? He may even watch the Utah Jazz play the basketball on Sundays. Oh well-- another one lost to pop culture.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

Yes according to the JBS Eisenhower was a commie.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-exposes-john-birch-society-c

That communist conspiracy that they wanted to rout and their fevered imaginings included President Dwight Eisenhower. According to the John Birch Society at that time, Ike was, quote, "a dedicated conscious agent of the communist conspiracy."

[Mike Reed]

OPs need a topic.

Edited the OP. Thx!

[Droopy]

Yep and Eisenhower was a commie.

Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"

Ignorance is an almost euphoric bliss for you, isn't it STS.

[Droopy]

USU78:

I respect and honor ETB as a prophet of God. I still find his political ideas repugnant.

Which ones, in particular, and why?

[selek]

Lehi:

Yes according to the JBS Eisenhower was a commie.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-exposes-john-birch-society-c

That communist conspiracy that they wanted to rout and their fevered imaginings included President Dwight Eisenhower. According to the John Birch Society at that time, Ike was, quote, "a dedicated conscious agent of the communist conspiracy."

That they were wrong about Ike (and really, that was a rather silly accusation) doesn't mean they were wrong about the others- as the revealed archives proved and you've tried desperately to gloss over.

There WERE committed Communist agents operating in the United States, and HUAC and McCarthy were right far more than they were wrong. Even the leftie poster boy (and Roosevelt advisor) Alger Hiss was proven to be precisely the turncoat, appeaser, and subversive he was accused of being.

That's the great sin for which Benson, McCarthy, and others are being pilloried- speaking truth to power.

Their great crime was telling the truth and laying facts bare to public scrutiny.

Hiss and many, many others were in fact Communist agents working towards the overthrow of the United States Constitution and the subversion of the government. The anti-Communist net spread in the fifties did incalculable damage to the Communist attempt to subvert the United States.

Nothing is as unforgivable to a left-Liberal fellow traveller as success.

McCarthy and Benson were right- and for that they must be rhetorically crucified, and expunged from history.

They told the truth- and for that their names must be forever decried and their effigies should light every street corner.

Of course, the fact that conservatives today are denounced, hounded, harassed, and belittled in almost the same fashion and with precisely the same fervor as the very real Communists in the 50's means only that the forces of truth and light have triumphed, correct?

The consistent smearing, sneering, and propagandizing against good men such as Benson (who had the virtue of being correct) is symptomatic of intellectual integrity, rather than a willful blindness to history, right SS?

The pious denunciation of good and decent patriots who are- conveniently- unable to speak in thier own defense is the height of moral courage, is it not?

[Droopy]

Lehi:

Yes according to the JBS Eisenhower was a commie.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-exposes-john-birch-society-c

That communist conspiracy that they wanted to rout and their fevered imaginings included President Dwight Eisenhower. According to the John Birch Society at that time, Ike was, quote, "a dedicated conscious agent of the communist conspiracy."

None of this - none, is relevant to the now historical facts of the matter, and those are that the United States government was loaded with subversives and party members seeking the dismemberment of the United States and its constitution during the years Benson was in Washington, just as had been the case during the Roosevelt administration. McCarthy, as I said earlier, despite his obnoxious personal character, and the times when he clearly overstepped his authority, was right the vast majority of the time regarding those he accused and pursued. Whatever McCarthy's negatives, and no one disputes those, he was, for the most part right, and we now know that, indeed, he underestimated the degree to which subversive elements had penetrated the hall of power within the federal government.

So interesting, so very interesting how modern "liberals" can despise those who love and defend individual liberty and republican self government while finding it easy, even at this late date, to minimize and whitewash those who supported and subverted their own country in the service of a hostile foreign power, bent on our destruction, and representing what is most probably the most evil and malignant ideology ever vomited up from the depths of hell.

So very, very, very interesting. That a Latter Day Saint could do so moves from interesting to utterly extraordinary.

[Darth J]

Which ones, in particular, and why?

Droopy, I know you think there's a political litmus test for being a good Mormon, but there isn't.

But feel free to tell us why the First Presidency is in error, as in this letter issued on March 10th:

Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in the platforms of various political parties.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/first-presidency-letter-on-utah-precinct-caucus-meetings

Or why the Church's official position on politics is wrong:

The Church does:

• Encourage its members to play a role as responsible citizens in their communities, including becoming informed about issues and voting in elections.
• Expect its members to engage in the political process in an informed and civil manner, respecting the fact that members of the Church come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences and may have differences of opinion in partisan political matters.
• Request candidates for office not to imply that their candidacy or platforms are endorsed by the Church.
• Reserve the right as an institution to address, in a nonpartisan way, issues that it believes have significant community or moral consequences or that directly affect the interests of the Church.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/first-presidency-letter-on-utah-precinct-caucus-meetings

Or, since USU78 owes you an explanation for not fully endorsing the political views of a particular church leader yet still respecting and admiring him, the same cannot be said of you with this lifelong Democrat:

[Droopy]

That they were wrong about Ike (and really, that was a rather silly accusation) doesn't mean they were wrong about the others- as the revealed archives proved and you've tried desperately to gloss over.

There WERE committed Communist agents operating in the United States, and HUAC and McCarthy were right far more than they were wrong. Even the leftie poster boy (and Roosevelt advisor) Alger Hiss was proven to be precisely the turncoat, appeaser, and subversive he was accused of being.

That's the great sin for which Benson, McCarthy, and others are being pilloried- speaking truth to power.

Their great crime was telling the truth and laying facts bare to public scrutiny.

Hiss and many, many others were in fact Communist agents working towards the overthrow of the United States Constitution and the subversion of the government. The anti-Communist net spread in the fifties did incalculable damage to the Communist attempt to subvert the United States.

Nothing is as unforgivable to a left-Liberal fellow traveller as success.

McCarthy and Benson were right- and for that they must be rhetorically crucified, and expunged from history.

They told the truth- and for that their names must be forever decried and their effigies should light every street corner.

Of course, the fact that conservatives today are denounced, hounded, harassed, and belittled in almost the same fashion and with precisely the same fervor as the very real Communists in the 50's means only that the forces of truth and light have triumphed, correct?

The consistent smearing, sneering, and propagandizing against good men such as Benson (who had the virtue of being correct) is symptomatic of intellectual integrity, rather than a willful blindness to history, right SS?

The pious denunciation of good and decent patriots who are- conveniently- unable to speak in thier own defense is the height of moral courage, is it not?

All the more evidence that, as Natan Sharanksi and others have pointed out, unlike at the end of WWII, when there was a "denazification" both within and without Germany, nothing of the kind happened after the fall of the Berlin Wall. There has never been a "decommunization" and the one hundred million bodies that lie buried all around us - the victims of the crimes of communism that dwarf those of the Nazis both in sheer quantity and reach - remain, for the most part, forgotten.

The ideology, unlike fascism and national socialism, which were all the rage here and on the continent during the Progressive era of the 20s and 30s but delegitimized and stigmatized after WWII, the romance of socialism and communism (applied socialism) remains strong among the western intelligentsia, especially within academia, the media and the arts.

It would seem, indeed, that nothing Marxists or leftist revolutionaries have ever done or ever could possibly do could dull its luster in the eyes of its true believers.

[selek]

Or, since USU78 owes you an explanation for not fully endorsing the political views of a particular church leader yet still respecting and admiring him, the same cannot be said of you with this lifelong Democrat:

Personally J,

I'd be less worried about the tendency to admire and respect the life long Democrat in your post than I would be about the adoration and emulation of the life-long Democrat in your avatar.

[Darth J]

Personally J,

I'd be less worried about the tendency to admire and respect the life long Democrat in your post than I would be about the adoration and emulation of the life-long Democrat in your avatar.

I think this is more what you were meaning:

[selek]

I think this is more what you were meaning:

No.

Even I don't go that far.

Personally, I think he's got far more in common with Jar-Jar than a Sith Lord.

Of course, I'm amazed that we've not gotten this thread shut down with all the politicking as iz.

So, wholly (okay, somewhat) tongue-in-cheek:

Palpatine as a committed Democrat:

Campaigned on "cleaning up corruption and waste" he himself created? (This trends more towards Barney Frank as Emperor, but it still counts). Check.

Denounced the power brokers in the Senate- while coopting them to his own agenda? Check.

Campaigned under the pretense that he was an "outsider" while holding the reins of power? Check.

Used a manufactured crisis to rush through an unprecendented power grab? Check.

"Never let a good crisis go to waste?" Hmmm....creation of the Grand Army of the Republic, emergency war powers to the Supreme Chancellor, Order 66, anyone? Check.

Took power to thunderous acclaim and immediately began attacking the rights of the citizen and subverting the government into something wholly different? Check.

Caucused with and canvassed with the avowed enemies of the Republic in order to seize power and undermine elected officials (Ask me sometime about Teddy Kennedy and the Soviets versus Ronaldus Magnus)? Check.

Demanded special favors under law for his cronies and then double crossed them when it became politically expedient? (Hmmm....Trade Federation franchise? Count Dooko? The rest of the Separatise leaders?) Check.

Beleived in unprecedented centralized power at the cost of the rights of the citizen and the various states? Check.

Willing to create and use military power against his own citizens in order to perpetuate his political power and enforce his edicts? Check and check.

Decried greedy, unscupulous business owners in order to orchestrate and cement his political power? Check.

Declared his political opponents enemies of the State and had them driven from power by military force? Check.

I'm sure Sometime Saint and a few others can attempt to draw parallels to Conservatives, but I also think I made my point.

Now, I've had enough fun politicking in this thread- I'm going leave now for the local Republican fundraiser.

I heard a rumor that they just got in a new batch of puppies and the river's already running high.

[Darth J]

No.

Even I don't go that far.

Personally, I think he's got far more in common with Jar-Jar than a Sith Lord.

Of course, I'm amazed that we've not gotten this thread shut down with all the politicking as iz.

So:

Palpatine as a Democrat:

Campaigned on "cleaning up corruption and waste" he himself created? (This trends more towards Barney Frank as Emperor, but it still counts). Check.

Denounced the power brokers in the Senate- while coopting them to his own agenda? Check.

Campaigned under the pretense that he was an "outsider" while holding the reins of power? Check.

Used a manufactured crisis to rush through an unprecendented power grab? Check.

"Never let a good crisis go to waste?" Hmmm....creation of the Grand Army of the Republic, emergency war powers to the Supreme Chancellor, Order 66, anyone? Check.

Took power to thunderous acclaim and immediately began attacking the rights of the citizen and subverting the government into something wholly different? Check.

Caucused with and canvassed with the avowed enemies of the Republic in order to seize power and undermine elected officials (Ask me sometime about Teddy Kennedy and the Soviets versus Ronaldus Magnus)? Check.

Demanded special favors under law for his cronies and then double crossed them when it became politically expedient? (Hmmm....Trade Federation franchise? Count Dooko? The rest of the Separatise leaders?) Check.

Beleived in unprecedented centralized power at the cost of the rights of the citizen and the various states? Check.

Willing to create and use military power against his own citizens in order to perpetuate his political power and enforce his edicts? Check and check.

Decried greedy, unscupulous business owners in order to orchestrate and cement his political power? Check.

Declared his political opponents enemies of the State and had them driven from power by military force? Check.

I'm sure Sometime Saint and a few others will attempt to draw parallels to Conservatives, but I also think I made my point.

I am going to get really angry if people keep insulting Darth Sidious by calling him a Democrat.

But let's make sure everyone is ridiculed equally so that the point of my original post is not lost:

Remember: fairness means we make fun of everybody.

[selek]

I am going to get really angry if people keep insulting Darth Sidious by calling him a Democrat.

Ayep.

But let's make sure everyone is ridiculed equally so that the point of my original post is not lost:

Really? I always thought Bush was closer to Porkins- in not knowing when to eject....

Remember: fairness means we make fun of everybody.

No arguments here.

But it also means that we get to go after Leftist icons with the same fervor that they go after Benson, right?

<<<crickets chirping>>>

All kidding aside- I can't believe the politicking in this thread. That Selek fella's really on a tear tonight....

....maybe he forgot his medication.

[Lamanite]

Stay on Target...

[Darth J]

But it also means that we get to go after Leftist icons with the same fervor that they go after Benson, right?

<<<crickets chirping>>>

All kidding aside- I can't believe the politicking in this thread. That Selek fella's really on a tear tonight....

....maybe he forgot his medication.

Maybe people just feel that leftist icons are their own satire.

[thesometimesaint]

Droopy:

Your Red Baiting fear mongering is ridiculous.