Jesus was "God in Man"

[divinenature]

Don't forget for the ones where Jesus himself is praying to the Father.

Good point. I would say that Jesus isn't "people" he is God. In the instances where he is recorded praying to his Father it is possible that his Father is not our Father. So, he is our Father (which in our world would make his Father our Grandfather). Not saying that is my belief, but it is one option.

The Lord's Prayer is an example to his followers on how to pray.

There are also indications in the scriptures that God is part of everything and permeates his entire creation. Maybe when he condescended he still understood his connectivity to all of creation and that he is not contained merely in the flesh.

That is what is so great, to me, the whole topic expands our minds and forces us to search for the layers of meaning. Human language is probably ineffective in conveying a complete understanding to us.

Other than possibly Jesus, does anyone else in all the scriptures ever pray or get an answer from someone other than Jehovah, the Eternal God?

What does Christ mean when he says the following to the Book of Mormon people? My interpretation is that our Savior is literally the Father and the Son. It also verifies that he is the one who has made things known to the children of man since the foundation of the world.

3 Nephi 1:14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son

[divinenature]

In Mormon Christianity, Jesus is just himself-- nothing else outside of time and space at the same time. The man Jesus is the son of God the Father and by overcoming all things becomes God the Father himself. Sons become like their Father in heaven just like on earth. The only real "Jesus" is the man who lived on earth 2000 years ago.

Richard, could you elaborate on this? I was always taught that Jesus Christ is God (a member of the Godhead). I was never taught that he was just a man. He could not have atoned for our sins if he was a mere mortal. He was Jehovah before he came to earth, so he was God before he came not just after. The current institute manual teaches that Christ and Jehovah are the same person. The temple teaches that, too.

I am unaware of any LDS scriptures or leaders who have taught that Jesus was only a man. Do you have a source?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And why did the Book of Mormon say that it was written to convice the Jew and Gentile that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Father?

It doesn't, the phrase used is the very eternal Father of hevean and earth. That is quite a bit different than saying that Jesus is the Eternal Father.

Jesus is the very eternal Father of hevean and earth because he created them under the direction of the Father. Good try though.

[thews]

In Mormon Christianity, Jesus is just himself-- nothing else outside of time and space at the same time. The man Jesus is the son of God the Father and by overcoming all things becomes God the Father himself. Sons become like their Father in heaven just like on earth. The only real "Jesus" is the man who lived on earth 2000 years ago.

Richard

Interesting, but I don't get this part. What do you mean when you say, "The man Jesus is the son of God the Father and by overcoming all things becomes God the Father himself." What is meant by "overcoming all things"?

The part I don't get with this is Joseph Smith's vision. If Jesus "becomes God the Father" then he would be one entity. In a vision to Joseph Smith, it wouldn't make sense then to actually see two personages, since Jesus would have become God the Father?

[divinenature]

It doesn't, the phrase used is the very eternal Father of hevean and earth. That is quite a bit different than saying that Jesus is the Eternal Father.

Jesus is the very eternal Father of hevean and earth because he created them under the direction of the Father. Good try though.

Only one of these passages uses a qualifier of Father of heaven and earth. I'm not sure how that makes him less of the Eternal Father. I see no evidence that "eternal Father of heaven and earth" is any different than the "Eternal Father."

The other passages I've provided use no qualifier. Could you provide scriptural proof that Eternal God and everlasting God are not the same as Eternal Father. They appear to all be interchangable.

1 Nephi 11:18* And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh.

...21* And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!...26...Look and behold the condescension of God!...32*...And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the everlasting God was judged of the world

1 Nephi 13:40* And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 16:15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

You will also note that Amulek was telling Zeezrom that there was One God. And this is how he spoke of the One God.

[erichard]

Richard, could you elaborate on this? I was always taught that Jesus Christ is God (a member of the Godhead). I was never taught that he was just a man. He could not have atoned for our sins if he was a mere mortal. He was Jehovah before he came to earth, so he was God before he came not just after. The current institute manual teaches that Christ and Jehovah are the same person. The temple teaches that, too.

I am unaware of any LDS scriptures or leaders who have taught that Jesus was only a man. Do you have a source?

Hi divinenature,

First the necessary disclaimer: my view are NOT those of the LDS church. I am some kind of Mormon, because I believe in the Book of Mormon and all Joseph's revelations. But my understanding is not an official dictation for any organization, except myself. But wait, that is true for everyone on this board, right?

What is God? My faith is that "God" is an INFINITE union of exalted personages of the same type of being as we are. They are spiritual beings that have a physical body to govern, just as we do-- except they are immortal and indestructible. The "intelligence" that gives them their own self consciousness and unique individuality is eternal, just as our's is.

These finite exalted beings are in a state of eternal progression in a universe of eternal elements. However, the INFINITE union itself is NOT in a state of eternal progression: it is eternally all-powerful, all-knowing, etc.

They are in a family organization that has no beginning: this union has eternally existed. They are no longer as we are, any more than an oak nut is the same as an oak tree: but they once were as we are. We can become like them, be we are not now much like them.

Three finite members of this ONE infinite God are the Godhead of our earth. But their power is more than just their own: they are ONE with the entire INFINITE union, and thus dealing with them is the same as dealing with an INFINITE God.

In the Mormon temples they are given the titles: Eloheim, Jehovah and Michael. In my non-LDS faith, all three are resurrected beings with homes on their resurrected earth, that once was like our earth is now. All three are considered "God the Father".

These three "gods" are the Godhead that created our earth, in connection with a higher "council of gods". The Jehovah of the creation is NOT the same as Jesus of Nazareth. However, Jesus is the Only Begotten son of Jehovah on our earth, and thus Jesus will obtain to all the fullness as his Father, so it is not wrong to call Jesus Jehovah. The lineage of Jehovah is the lineage that rules over all others that attain to "godhood", so truly in Jesus "dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col 2:9)

We are NOT of the linage of Jehovah. We are of the lineage of Michael, or Adam. We can never become a Savior, but we can become a Joint-heir with our Savior, just as our Father Michael did when he dwelt as a mortal, as as Abraham did with his Savior Jesus.

So you see, if one thinks of "God" in creedal terms, they are not going to understand what I am saying. In my faith, if you were to meet Jesus you would meet the man Jesus and you would meet the god Jesus. He was not something else at the same time: he was two things at the same time.

You got to realize that Jesus was in extremely close communion with His Father and God. Jesus was here, but so was His Father. And His Father and God is in extremely close communion with the council of gods he is subject to. Dealing with the finite Jesus is dealing with an INFINITE God, but just not in the way the creeds explain it.

Richard

[erichard]

Interesting, but I don't get this part. What do you mean when you say, "The man Jesus is the son of God the Father and by overcoming all things becomes God the Father himself." What is meant by "overcoming all things"?

The part I don't get with this is Joseph Smith's vision. If Jesus "becomes God the Father" then he would be one entity. In a vision to Joseph Smith, it wouldn't make sense then to actually see two personages, since Jesus would have become God the Father?

Hi thews,

This is Mormon scripture:

12 And I, John, saw that he [Jesus] received not of the fullness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fullness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fullness of the glory of the Father;

--D&C 93

I highly recommend you read all of D&C 93 a few times:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/93

So you see Jesus continued from grace to grace, and only received the fullness of the glory of the Father after overcoming all things.

Since Jesus is ONE with his Father and God, Jesus is ONE with the INFINITE power that created the Worlds. But the finite Jesus has to grow up and overcome things, just as we do. At least that is my faith.

I do not believe that Jesus personally created the Andromeda galaxy, for instance. But the lineage and power he is ONE with most certainly did create it.

In my faith the term God the Father applies to all exalted beings that reach the state that Jesus did in verse 16. So Jesus became the Father too. The Book of Mormon teaches Jesus was both the Father and the Son. That does not mean He does not have a Father and God, however.

Richard

[Cold Steel]

Man first walked on the moon in 1969. But who was this man? Is this meant to say that Neil Armstrong is the one we should think about when we read this sentence? Or is the term "man" a collective term?

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Are we to understand it was Jehovah/Christ or should we think of God (Elohim) in a collective sense?

God, according to trinitarians, comprise three holy beings: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But how many men make up "Man"?

If one can think of "God" and "Man" being collective terms, one will more readily understand the nature of God as it pertains to plurality.

.