Book of Mormon Vocabulary I find Impressive

[Olavarria]

KROSE

Good point about the "ands". I got sloppy there; especially when you consider what many others have written about the "ands" in the BoM.

http://mormoncodex.blogspot.com/search/label/Hebrew

[etana]

I suspect that Sheum (actually a Sumerian word that was borrowed by Akkadian and has been fossilized in the BOM with the Akkadian nominative suffix) refers to a more general class of grains. Most likely "grain used for bread" or "grain used for commerce".

[Olavarria]

I suspect that Sheum (actually a Sumerian word that was borrowed by Akkadian and has been fossilized in the BOM with the Akkadian nominative suffix) refers to a more general class of grains. Most likely "grain used for bread" or "grain used for commerce".

Im a sucky writer. haha.

[John Larsen]

I suspect that Sheum (actually a Sumerian word that was borrowed by Akkadian and has been fossilized in the BOM with the Akkadian nominative suffix) refers to a more general class of grains. Most likely "grain used for bread" or "grain used for commerce".

Do you have any evidence that this Akkadian word was used in either Hebrew or Egyptian? That would seem to be the crux pin of the argument. It is very unlikely that Lehi in isolation borrowed the word from a language that he did not speak.

To make sure you understand what I am saying, take English for example. English has borrowed many, many Norman (French) words. But that does not mean that any French word from any time period would be considered legitimate use.

[krose]

I think the emphasis should have been placed on the "and with seeds" of all manner of fruit...etc. Meaning that the first 5 items were listed under the grain list, then the next set began fruits. The author took notice to re-emphasize the word of seeds again when he switched to a different produce item (fruit). I think that is what he was alluding to.

Actually, it would make more sense to say that the need to emphasize "seeds" again indicates that the two out-of-place items are not seeds at all, and he was getting back to seeds.

Or it's just a sloppy sentence with a messed-up parallel structure, caused by someone tossing in some nonsense words.

[etana]

Do you have any evidence that this Akkadian word was used in either Hebrew or Egyptian? That would seem to be the crux pin of the argument. It is very unlikely that Lehi in isolation borrowed the word from a language that he did not speak.

To make sure you understand what I am saying, take English for example. English has borrowed many, many Norman (French) words. But that does not mean that any French word from any time period would be considered legitimate use.

That would be the smoking gun wouldn't it?

There are some that propose that it comes by way of the Jaredites who could have spoken a relative of Akkadian (more likely IMO that they spoke Sumerian though). Personally I prefer the idea that it came with Lehi's group.

Words describing technology tend to fossilize the language of the culture who discovered said technology. These can exist side by side in the borrowers language with native synonyms and can take on new connotations. It is not far fetched to expect that this word could have been in use in some regional dialect of Hebrew (or Egyptian --It's possible IMO that Lehi had ties with the Elephantine community) with which Lehi's band was culturally affiliated.

I don't have any specific information however that Sheum is attested in any Hebrew or Egyptian dialect.

[Olavarria]

That would be the smoking gun wouldn't it?

There are some that propose that it comes by way of the Jaredites who could have spoken a relative of Akkadian (more likely IMO that they spoke Sumerian though). Personally I prefer the idea that it came with Lehi's group.

Words describing technology tend to fossilize the language of the culture who discovered said technology. These can exist side by side in the borrowers language with native synonyms and can take on new connotations. It is not far fetched to expect that this word could have been in use in some regional dialect of Hebrew (or Egyptian --It's possible IMO that Lehi had ties with the Elephantine community) with which Lehi's band was culturally affiliated.

I don't have any specific information however that Sheum is attested in any Hebrew or Egyptian dialect.

I vote for a Jaredite transmission ala the Mulekites. Zeniff uses the word,but it doesnt appear before the Zarahemla days, so we have no reason to assume the Nephites knew it before then.

[John Larsen]

I vote for a Jaredite transmission ala the Mulekites. Zeniff uses the word,but it doesnt appear before the Zarahemla days, so we have no reason to assume the Nephites knew it before then.

Just to make certain I understand your theory: A long time ago everyone spoke the same language. Then, one day God became very angry with humankind because they decided to build a tall building. To keep them from completing the project, he changed the languages of the people except for one group, who kept the single human language. Even though the people who would eventual inhabit Mesopotamia also had their language changed, at least one word didn?t change and that was the word for Barley.

A group that was favored by God preserved the single language and went to the Americas. There they encountered the Olmac people. Even though this small group kept their cultural identify enough to preserve the word for barley, they were completely subsumed by the Olmac culture in the archeological record.

Many years later another group of people left Palestine, but these people had the learning of the Jews but the language of the Egyptians. They also sailed to the new world. There they encountered the Maya, but were completely subsumed by the Maya in the archeological record. However, the must have encountered some of the previously subsumed culture, at least enough to transmit the pre-Tower-of-Babel word for Barley.

Some thousand of years after the second group arrived, a single scribe compiled the book and preserved this ancient transliteration for the word barley in a small list in the book, surprisingly enough right after using the actual word for barley thus indicating that this word had survived its miraculous journey even though a local term served the exact same purpose.

Today, both terms for barley, the ancient one from the Book of Mormon which was clandestinely transferred from hidden culture to hidden culture happens to match an old Akkadian term for barley which somehow survived God?s linguistic befuddling wrath at the ancient tower and remanded unchanged to the dictionary that you found it in. All of this is even more remarkable when one considers that there was no domesticated barley in the New World.

This is your proof of the Book of Mormon?

[Olavarria]

Nice straw man.....awesome strawman

Just to make certain I understand your theory: A long time ago everyone spoke the same language.

Everyone?

Then, one day God became very angry with humankind because they decided to build a tall building.

Probably an apostate temple. Ascending into heaven is one of those things.....

To keep them from completing the project, he changed the languages of the people

I honestly don't know the scope or extent of this language changing; I have no idea how it relates to the history of languages as we know it.

except for one group, who kept the single human language.

Its a great questian: What did the Jaredites speak? Names like Coriantmr,Morianton, Riplakish etc. are very strange. Where these Adamic names that were presevered via sacred texts(like Moses,Jacob,Joseph and Adam are to English speakers)? Or are they representative of the actuial spoken language?

Even though the people who would eventual inhabit Mesopotamia also had their language changed, at least one word didn?t change and that was the word for Barley.

Correct me if Im wrong but Akkadian and Sumerian were already in existance by this time. BTW, regardless of what language Jared and his people spoke, they were from mesopotamia, so we shouldnt be astonished if they used some words from a Mesopotamian language. How many White folks in the Southwest use Spanish(Mexican) words for the foods they eat?

[Olavarria]

A group that was favored by God preserved the single language and went to the Americas.

Again, what language?

There they encountered the Olmac people.

Was there an "Olmec people"? Or was there a collection of peoples who's material culture shared enough similiarities for archeologists to group em in a catchall name they themselves never used?

Even though this small group kept their cultural identify enough to preserve the word for barley, they were completely subsumed by the Olmac culture in the archeological record.

Maybe. Do your Jewish friends drive Jewish cars? Do your Mormon friends have Mormon TV's? "The RM went to FHE and renewed his recommend before he bought some G's at the distribution center." L'Chaim!!!

Many years later another group of people left Palestine, but these people had the learning of the Jews but the language of the Egyptians. They also sailed to the new world. There they encountered the Maya, but were completely subsumed by the Maya in the archeological record.

23 folks among several million, sounds right to me.

However, the must have encountered some of the previously subsumed culture, at least enough to transmit the pre-Tower-of-Babel word for Barley.

Coriantmr had a final run-in with the Mulekites. Were there other cdontacts before? Were all the "Jaredites" annihalated, or merely the royal lineage?

Some thousand of years after the second group arrived, a single scribe compiled the book and preserved this ancient transliteration for the word barley in a small list in the book

the word is also used for other grains and pine kernals. My questian is: why wasnt it translated by JS?

surprisingly enough right after using the actual word for barley thus indicating that this word had survived its miraculous journey even though a local term served the exact same purpose.

see above, we've already established that word was used to refer to other grains in the OldWorld as well.

Today, both terms for barley, the ancient one from the Book of Mormon which was clandestinely transferred from hidden culture

kinda like: xocolatl(aztec)->chocolate(spanish)->Godiva(American).

to hidden culture happens to match an old Akkadian term for barley which somehow survived God?s linguistic befuddling wrath at the ancient tower and remanded unchanged to the dictionary that you found it in.

Again, no one said "sheum" is Adamic.

Its

1)attested Akkadian and is used in an agricultral context(barely and other grains).

2)Jaredites were from Mesopotamia,

3)sheum is used in the BoM in an agricultral context.

All of this is even more remarkable when one considers that there was no domesticated barley in the New World.

Really?

http://books.google.com/books?id=edXSLIEpWOoC&pg=PA100&dq=hohokam%2Bbarley&lr=#v=onepage&q=hohokam%2Bbarley&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_0u2y_SVnmoC&pg=RA1-PA479&dq=domesticated+barley%2Bhohokam&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false

This is your proof of the Book of Mormon?

I never said it was proof. All I'm saying in essence is:

1)The BoM uses sheum in an agrcultural context.

2)In Akkadian(a mesopotamian language) sheum is used in an agricultural context

3)The Jaredites might have provided the link for the Nephites to use this word. The Jaredites came from Mesopotamia and other "Jaredite" words(a list of personal names) made it into the "nephite" language.

If the Akkadian provinance of sheum is too far fetched on account of it recquiring Jaredite transmission,maybe we should look at Hebrew. In Hebrew, means שעועית() "beans".

Click the link

BTW, Hebrew and Akkadian are both Semetic languages, hence the similiarity. The only questian I have is: Is sheu-it an ancient Hebrew word, or is it modern?

[Olavarria]

JOHN LARSEN

Please forgive my sacrcasm in my last two posts. You have been nothing but respectful and didnt deserve the "nice strawman, clap clap" rebuke. I really am sorry and appreciate the exchange. You just cant talk about these things on dates or in Sunday school

[Olavarria]

bsmp