Isaiah and Abinadi

[volgadon]

I found an interesting connection between Abinadi and Isaiah.

In Jewish (and early Christian) tradition, Isaiah died a martyr's death, sawn in half by Menasseh's command. What is interesting is that Isaiah was arrested and accused of lying and making prophesying falsehoods. The chief charge was that he claimed to have seen the Lord, yet Moses, foremost among the prophets, stated that man shall not see the Lord and live. Other charges included false prophesying Hezekiah's death and prophesying against the people.

Isaiah made no reply. According to Jewish tradtion, he invoked the Lord's name and was hid in a tree, though this doesn't appear in the Christian tradition, where Isaiah is instead hidden in a cave. At any rate, he is discovered and sawn in half.

What I find really interesting is that (according to the traditions) one of the reasons Isaiah kept silent is because of the prophecy in chapter 53. Verse 7 states that. "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

Much of Isaiah's life paralleled his prophecies, or as Alma put it, these things are not without a shadow.

Even his death was a type of Christ.

Now to the connection with Abinadi. He must have recognised how history was repeating itself and I'm sure that king Noah and the priests did too. That might also explain why they turned to Isaiah in an attempt to convict Abinadi. At any rate, Abinadi chose his scriptures carefully and his death too was a type and shadow of Christ's own.

As ever, we see that the Book of Mormon presents a very sophisticated use of patterns.

It is probably inevitable that critics will claim that Joseph Smith plagiarised the Jewish traditions, so I would like to ask them how likely it was that Joseph even knew what the Talmud and Seder Olam Rabah were, let alone read them and if they were even available in translation then.

[David Bokovoy]

Volgadon,

Thank you for sharing your insight. This is a fascinating connection. I'm only familiar with the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah which attributes his death to Isaiah's vision of Christ. You've piqued my interest to say the least. I have very little knowledge of the Talmud, but would like to follow up on the link.

Could you provide the exact references?

Thanks,

--DB

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Volgadon,

Thank you for sharing your insight. This is a fascinating connection. I'm only familiar with the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah which attributes his death to Isaiah's vision of Christ. You've piqued my interest to say the least. I have very little knowledge of the Talmud, but would like to follow up on the link.

Could you provide the exact references?

Thanks,

--DB

I find this stuff interesting because I dont have a jesih back ground and it is cool to see what connections can be seen.

[e=mc2]

I found an interesting connection between Abinadi and Isaiah.

In Jewish (and early Christian) tradition, Isaiah died a martyr's death, sawn in half by Menasseh's command. What is interesting is that Isaiah was arrested and accused of lying and making prophesying falsehoods. The chief charge was that he claimed to have seen the Lord, yet Moses, foremost among the prophets, stated that man shall not see the Lord and live. Other charges included false prophesying Hezekiah's death and prophesying against the people.

Isaiah made no reply. According to Jewish tradtion, he invoked the Lord's name and was hid in a tree, though this doesn't appear in the Christian tradition, where Isaiah is instead hidden in a cave. At any rate, he is discovered and sawn in half.

What I find really interesting is that (according to the traditions) one of the reasons Isaiah kept silent is because of the prophecy in chapter 53. Verse 7 states that. "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

Much of Isaiah's life paralleled his prophecies, or as Alma put it, these things are not without a shadow.

Even his death was a type of Christ.

Now to the connection with Abinadi. He must have recognised how history was repeating itself and I'm sure that king Noah and the priests did too. That might also explain why they turned to Isaiah in an attempt to convict Abinadi. At any rate, Abinadi chose his scriptures carefully and his death too was a type and shadow of Christ's own.

As ever, we see that the Book of Mormon presents a very sophisticated use of patterns.

It is probably inevitable that critics will claim that Joseph Smith plagiarised the Jewish traditions, so I would like to ask them how likely it was that Joseph even knew what the Talmud and Seder Olam Rabah were, let alone read them and if they were even available in translation then.

Niiiiiiiiiice! I like your careful readings of things....... I can see we have much to share and learn with each other, the very BEST kind of interaction.....

[J Green]

In the Babylonian Talmud it's found in Yebamoth 49B:

SAID R. SIMEON B. AZZAI etc. [A tanna] recited: Simeon b. 'Azzai said, 'I found a roll of genealogical records in Jerusalem and therein was written "So-and-so is a ******* [having been born] from a forbidden union with] a married woman" and therein was also written "The teaching of R. Eliezer b. Jacob is small in quantity but thoroughly sifted". And in it was also written, "Manasseh slew Isaiah"'.

Raba said: He brought him to trial and then slew him. He said to him: Your teacher Moses said, 'For men shall not see Me and live' and you said, 'I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up'. Your teacher Moses said, 'For what [great nation is there, that hath God so nigh unto them], as the Lord our God is whensoever we call upon him', and you said, 'Seek ye the Lord when he may be found'. Your teacher Moses said, 'The number of thy days I will fulfil' but you said, 'And I will add on to your days fifteen years'. 'I know', thought Isaiah, 'that whatever I may tell him he will not accept; and should I reply at all, I would only cause him to be a wilful [homicide]'. He thereupon pronounced [the Divine] Name and was swallowed up by a cedar. The cedar, however, was brought and sawn asunder. When the saw reached his month he died. [And this was his penalty] for having said, 'And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips'.

It's also found in Palestinian Talmud (Sanhedrin 10,2), where the contradiction with Moses is not the excuse but rather the fact that he prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem.

Regards, everyone!

[David Bokovoy]

In the Babylonian Talmud it's found in Yebamoth 49B:

It's also found in Palestinian Talmud (Sanhedrin 10,2), where the contradiction with Moses is not the excuse but rather the fact that he prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem.

Regards, everyone!

Thanks J. Green,

This is really fascinating. With its criticism of Isaiah's claim to having seen God, these statements from the Talmud appear very similar to the Ascension and Martyrdom of Isaiah. I'm specifically interested in the link suggested by Volgadon between Isaiah's prophecy in chapter 53 and his martyrdom.

[volgadon]

That's it exactly. Thanks J Green.

I find the Talmud harder going than the Old Testament. Not so much because of the language, but because of its stylistic quirks. Most of it is cryptic, kind of like jokes without a punchline. A typical example would be Rabbi Tarfon of Qasion (don't bother looking him up) would say I walked from my house and I saw a tree, thus forcing volume after volume of rabbinical interpretations to be written, on what kind of house it was, on what day, what direction did he set out to, what was the weather like, how long did he walk, what kind of tree was it, how old, and so on. I exaggerate, of course.

The Talmud is very stylised and figurative, full of exaggerations. Rarely are statements to be taken at face value. The Talmud isn't concerned with accuracy but rather with painting a picture.

I think there is a lot in the Talmud, midrashei agadot (folk tales) and piyutim (paraliturgy) that would be invaluable to LDS scholars.

[David Bokovoy]

That's it exactly. Thanks J Green.

So I'm still missing the connection with Isaiah 53. I think this is the most interesting point in your observation, since it would create a direct parallel with Abinadi.

best,

--DB

[volgadon]

It is one of the Jewish interpretations of Isaiah 53 and Isaiah in general.

[e=mc2]

That's it exactly. Thanks J Green.

I find the Talmud harder going than the Old Testament. Not so much because of the language, but because of its stylistic quirks. Most of it is cryptic, kind of like jokes without a punchline. A typical example would be Rabbi Tarfon of Qasion (don't bother looking him up) would say I walked from my house and I saw a tree, thus forcing volume after volume of rabbinical interpretations to be written, on what kind of house it was, on what day, what direction did he set out to, what was the weather like, how long did he walk, what kind of tree was it, how old, and so on. I exaggerate, of course.

The Talmud is very stylised and figurative, full of exaggerations. Rarely are statements to be taken at face value. The Talmud isn't concerned with accuracy but rather with painting a picture.

I think there is a lot in the Talmud, midrashei agadot (folk tales) and piyutim (paraliturgy) that would be invaluable to LDS scholars.

Yes, Hugh Nibley, one of our scholars, said much along these lines. He actually found some ideas in the Babylonian Talmud about the shining or glowing stones of the Book of Ether! Very interesting stuff overall.

[David Bokovoy]

It is one of the Jewish interpretations of Isaiah 53 and Isaiah in general.

Thanks, but when you get a chance, could you be more specific?

[volgadon]

Absolutely. I'm trying to find a better source than just Amos Hacham or entries which say Jewish interpretations hold......

Anyway, I was wondering about the angel in Ascension. His name is Beliar, wouldn't that be Belial?

[J Green]

I'm not aware of any Rabbinic sources on this (Isaiah prophesying his own death), but I have seen the suggestion raised in a few NT commentaries covering Philip's encounter with the Eunuch in Acts. The Ethiopian is reading Isaiah aloud, and when Philip approaches and asks if he understands, the Eunuch cites the very verse in question and then asks: "I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?" (Acts 8:34). I've read some commentaries that have suggested that the phrasing here implies a current exegesis of Isaiah prophesying his own death. Much of the Servant phrasing is in the first person (as with Jeremiah's suffering passages) and there was a tendency at the time (e.g., see anything from Qumran) to equate these types of passages to a specific person in history, so the Jews at the time of Christ would not be foreign to this type of exegesis.

If I remember right, Josephus equates this to Hezekiah and talks about Hezekiah's days being prolonged so he could have a son in language similar to "and he shall see his seed."

I too would love to see some early Jewish sources on this. Nice discussion, Volgodon.

Regards

[David Bokovoy]

Iâ??ve come to believe that this really is an amazing connection. According to the Ascension and Martyrdom account, Isaiah, whom Abinadai quotes, dies by the hand of a wicked king in a type of trial by ordeal:

â??And when Isaiah was being sawn in sunder, Belchira stood up, accusing him, and all the false prophets stood up, laughing and rejoicing because of Isaiahâ?¦ And Belchira said to Isaiah: 'Say, "I have lied in all that I have spoken, and likewise the ways of Manasseh are good and right. And the ways also of Belchira and of his associates are good." And this he said to him when he began to be sawn in sunderâ? (5:2-7)

In the Book of Mormon, Abinadi suffers via the same fate, namely a trial by ordeal at the hands of a wicked king:

â??For thou hast said that God himself should come down among the children of men; and now, for this cause thou shalt be put to death unless thou wilt recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people. Now Abinadi said unto him: I say unto you, I will not recall the words which I have spoken unto you concerning this people, for they are true; and that ye may know of their surety I have suffered myself that I have fallen into your hands. Yea, and I will suffer even until death, and I will not recall my words, and they shall stand as a testimony against you. And if ye slay me ye will shed innocent blood, and this shall also stand as a testimony against you at the last dayâ? (Mosiah 17: 8-10)

Recognizing the implications of Abinadiâ??s trial by ordeal, Noah came close to releasing his captive. However, convinced by his wicked priests to take Abinadi at his offer, Noah has Abinadi put to death by fire. Since this was a trial by ordeal that would determine Noahâ??s innocence if Abinadi recanted his words, no doubt Abinadi suffered a torturous death.

The parallel is intriguing, especially since Abinadi devotes so much attention to Isaiah in his sermon.

[David Bokovoy]

So I spent some time in the library this evening hoping to find the reference to which Volgadon alludes, namely a connection between Isaiah 53 and the martyrdom.

Unfortunately, I had forgotten that the library closed early for Passover break, so I didnâ??t have much time and was unable to locate the reference. So far, the closest Iâ??ve come is in fact m. Yeb. 4:13 where Isaiah said to himself, â??I know about him that he will not accept what I [might] say to him, and if I speak to him, he will be considered as one who committed a willful act of murder.â?

I could see how this tradition could be interpreted in connection with Isaiah 53:7: â??He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.â?

However, I only had a few minutes and was not able to find any Rabbinic interpreters that made the link. I suspect that it is in connection with this notion from m. Yeb that we will find the allusion.

If this point can be established together with the trial by ordeal, then clearly we have on our hands a very, very impressive connection between the Book of Mormon and ancient Jewish legend.

Sincere props.

[Cold Steel]

What is interesting is that Isaiah was arrested and accused of lying and making prophesying falsehoods. The chief charge was that he claimed to have seen the Lord, yet Moses, foremost among the prophets, stated that man shall not see the Lord and live. Other charges included false prophesying Hezekiah's death and prophesying against the people.

Hmmmm...those charges sound awfully familiar.

Making false prophecies, claiming to see God, prophesying against the people.... It's on the tip of my tongue. I just hate it when I can't think of things.

[volgadon]

David, the connection seems to have been made by later interpreters. The big problem is that Jews were very reluctant to deal with Isa 53 used most often by Christians in their debates which were often little more than opportunities to publicly humiliate Jews. I've been going through various rabbinical sources to find a good quote on how Isaiah likened things unto himself. even if nothing old turns up, I think it fits with Isaiah's methods of prophecy. I like J Green's mention of Candace's eunuch. In this light, all these things point towards Christ's trials.

[David Bokovoy]

David, the connection seems to have been made by later interpreters. The big problem is that Jews were very reluctant to deal with Isa 53 used most often by Christians in their debates which were often little more than opportunities to publicly humiliate Jews. I've been going through various rabbinical sources to find a good quote on how Isaiah likened things unto himself. even if nothing old turns up, I think it fits with Isaiah's methods of prophecy. I like J Green's mention of Candace's eunuch. In this light, all these things point towards Christ's trials.

Indeed, J Green's point regarding Acts 8 illustrates that the idea of identifying Isaiah himself as the suffering servant in chapter 53 has circulated throughout ancient Judaism. It would be great if we could find it. The Rabbis appear to universally identify the suffering servant as a collective reference to Israel. The closest I've come so far to making the link, is 'Ibn Ezra who presents the interpretation of the phrase "his servant" in 44:26 as a reference to Isaiah himself, however, as to be expected, 'Ibn Ezra identifies the suffering servant as Israel.

[volgadon]

Indeed, J Green's point regarding Acts 8 illustrates that the idea of identifying Isaiah himself as the suffering servant in chapter 53 has circulated throughout ancient Judaism. It would be great if we could find it. The Rabbis appear to universally identify the suffering servant as a collective reference to Israel. The closest I've come so far to making the link, is 'Ibn Ezra who presents the interpretation of the phrase "his servant" in 44:26 as a reference to Isaiah himself, however, as to be expected, 'Ibn Ezra identifies the suffering servant as Israel.

None see it as a reference to a messiah, though some think that Isaiah was using himself as a type of suffering Israel. Another interpretation is that the servant is meant to typify the prophets.

[David Bokovoy]

None see it as a reference to a messiah, though some think that Isaiah was using himself as a type of suffering Israel. Another interpretation is that the servant is meant to typify the prophets.

By "some" do you mean "Rabbinic" commentators. If so, that's what I'm looking for.

[e=mc2]

Indeed, J Green's point regarding Acts 8 illustrates that the idea of identifying Isaiah himself as the suffering servant in chapter 53 has circulated throughout ancient Judaism. It would be great if we could find it. The Rabbis appear to universally identify the suffering servant as a collective reference to Israel. The closest I've come so far to making the link, is 'Ibn Ezra who presents the interpretation of the phrase "his servant" in 44:26 as a reference to Isaiah himself, however, as to be expected, 'Ibn Ezra identifies the suffering servant as Israel.

It is indeed, significant that even though there is thought to be a collective here, there is still an indentification with an *individual.* The Hebrew does not bar this interpretation. I agree that a collective of Israel is actually mentioned in some of the earlier servant songs, but this is not in contradcition and opposite of an individual being there either. A fascinating issue.

[David Bokovoy]

No doubt a bit strange to quote myself, but I thought of something today that I would like to add to this observation.

Iâ??ve come to believe that this really is an amazing connection. According to the Ascension and Martyrdom account, Isaiah, whom Abinadai quotes, dies by the hand of a wicked king in a type of trial by ordeal:

â??And when Isaiah was being sawn in sunder, Belchira stood up, accusing him, and all the false prophets stood up, laughing and rejoicing because of Isaiahâ?¦ And Belchira said to Isaiah: 'Say, "I have lied in all that I have spoken, and likewise the ways of Manasseh are good and right. And the ways also of Belchira and of his associates are good." And this he said to him when he began to be sawn in sunderâ? (5:2-7)

In the Book of Mormon, Abinadi suffers via the same fate, namely a trial by ordeal at the hands of a wicked king:

â??For thou hast said that God himself should come down among the children of men; and now, for this cause thou shalt be put to death unless thou wilt recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people. Now Abinadi said unto him: I say unto you, I will not recall the words which I have spoken unto you concerning this people, for they are true; and that ye may know of their surety I have suffered myself that I have fallen into your hands. Yea, and I will suffer even until death, and I will not recall my words, and they shall stand as a testimony against you. And if ye slay me ye will shed innocent blood, and this shall also stand as a testimony against you at the last dayâ? (Mosiah 17: 8-10)

Recognizing the implications of Abinadiâ??s trial by ordeal, Noah came close to releasing his captive. However, convinced by his wicked priests to take Abinadi at his offer, Noah has Abinadi put to death by fire. Since this was a trial by ordeal that would determine Noahâ??s innocence if Abinadi recanted his words, no doubt Abinadi suffered a torturous death.

The parallel is intriguing, especially since Abinadi devotes so much attention to Isaiah in his sermon.

Note that offering to submit to a trial by ordeal, Abinadi declares that he is willing to suffer "even until death." From a Hebraic perspective, this statement meant much more than simply a willingness to suffer death. One of the lesser known ways of creating the superlative in Biblical Hebrew is by invoking the term death; see D. Winton Thomas, â??A Consideration of Some Unusal Ways of Expressing the Superlative in Hebrew,â? Vetus Testamentum 3 (1953): 209-24.

Examples from the OT include the following:

â??And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto deathâ? (Jonah 4:9)

â??And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, so that his soul was vexed unto deathâ? (Judges 16:16)

These statements simply mean that Jonah was exceedingly angry and that Samson's soul was exceedingly vexed. By comparison, Abinadi tells his audience that as proof that he was a true messenger sent from God, Abinadi was willing to submit to the most intense levels of suffering/torture and would not, in the process, recant his words.

Noah and his Priests took Abinadi at his offer. The medieval conception of Abinadi bound to a stake as portrayed in some media is probably incorrect. I believe that this observation would support a Meso-American connection made by Brandt Gardner.

[volgadon]

Exactly so. Do look at 17:13-14. Very odd if taken at face value in English.

As to the method applied, they took torches and burned him topically.

As for rabbinical interpreations, no, I haven't found any classical ones yet, merely modern.

[J Green]

From the speculative department . . .

I was comparing the different versions of Isa 53 this morning, and I noticed that the LXX text of Isa 53:9 differs significantly from the MT in a way that is germane to this discussion. where the MT has this in the 3rd pers. sing.: "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death," the Greek has it in the 1st pers. sing: "And I will give the wicked instead of (or "in place of") his burial, and the rich instead of (or "in place of") his death." The LXX, unlike the MT, then, is not talking about the burial of the subject but rather about retribution against the wicked and rich. It's about punishing the wicked and rich with the same death as the subject, with an implication that it derives from the death of the subject. If true, this would tend to strengthen the idea that Abinidi is applying the Suffering Servant pericope to his own situation. Because he has made the wickedness (fornication of priests) and riches (burdensome taxes) of King Noah and his corrupt court as the foundation of his accusations against them, and he prophesies for them the same death that he faces.

On the other hand, you could present Mosiah 14 as evidence to the contrary, for there you have Isa 53 cited following the MT exactly. The only out here would be to follow the train of thought (and it's out there) that where the plates directly cite an existing text, that the KJV was followed in the translation despite what was on the plates.

Regards

[volgadon]

Rashi interpreted the rich as having reference to the ruler the servant would subject himself to, even to be put to death by, if he so fancied.