Understanding Nephi 1:2

[MatthewG]

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

I started reading the Book of Mormon over again for the first time in a long time and am trying my best to read it with "fresh eyes" or in essence to read as if I hadn't ever seen the book before. Right off the bat, verse 2 caught my attention, maybe because I spend to many hours on this site and over at FAIR, but these 2 parts of the verse jumped out at me for the first time.

So Nephi basically says he is making a record with the "doctrine" or "teachings" or "knowledge" of the Jews? Right or Wrong?

The Second part, "the language of the Egyptians". Was Reformed Egyptian a dialect of Egyptian? Or a completely new language but similar?

Just curious to your ("the Smart People") thoughts.

Have a good Sabbath.

[e=mc2]

I started reading the Book of Mormon over again for the first time in a long time and am trying my best to read it with "fresh eyes" or in essence to read as if I hadn't ever seen the book before. Right off the bat, verse 2 caught my attention, maybe because I spend to many hours on this site and over at FAIR, but these 2 parts of the verse jumped out at me for the first time.

So Nephi basically says he is making a record with the "doctrine" or "teachings" or "knowledge" of the Jews? Right or Wrong?

The Second part, "the language of the Egyptians". Was Reformed Egyptian a dialect of Egyptian? Or a completely new language but similar?

Just curious to your ("the Smart People") thoughts.

Have a good Sabbath.

In Nephi's day the Egyptian language would have been Demotic, which had changed from the hieroglyphs. But he never called it "Reformed Egyptian." That description was Mormon's way later in 400 A.D. In Nephi's day it was simply Egyptian, but it was through the 1,000 year history that it was changed and hence reformed. The language of my father we would call Hebrew, but it was not known to Nephi by that name back then, so all he could say was it was his father's language - nifty that! But yes, it would have been from the cultural aspect, but if you get a chance, Brant Gardner's commentary here is interesting! It was not a uniform understanding of doctrine that the Jews had. They were going through a major reform from Josiah's changes, and some were rejecting the changes. Gardner (and I side with him for the most part) says Nephi would *not* have accepted all the changes, and this shows up in the Nephite record. HOpe this helps.

[Urloony]

Our good friend Brant Gardner's take.

Socio-cultural information: Language in the Book of Mormon: The problem of language in the Book of Mormon begins in the second verse of the text: 1 Nephi 1:2:"2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." Nephi states that the record is in the "language of his father" and that the "language" has two elements, "the learning of the Jews" and "the language of the Egyptians". John L. Sorenson considers the "learning of the Jews" to mean the cultural contexts, and would be inclusive of the language itself (Sorenson, 1985, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, p. 74.). He then follows with an analysis of "language of the Egyptians". This is based heavily on the following text from Mormon.

Mormon 9:32 "32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech."

According to Sorenson, this could mean that Mormon used Egyptian signs to depict Hebrew (Sorenson 1985, p. 76). This might be bolstered by the next text: Mormon 9:33 "33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record."

These texts create a temporal bridge between the first known Book of Mormon text (that of Nephi), and Mormon, the next to the last writer of the text as we have it. The salient points are that we have a population which begins with a spoken (and assumed written) knowledge of Hebrew, and some relationship to whatever is meant by "language of the Egyptians". For whatever reason, it appears that the reformed part of the description of "Egyptian" does not appear until later in the Book of Mormon text, perhaps referring to changes which were made in that manner of writing.

In the holographic small plates of Nephi there is another very specific reference to Egyptian writing. Mosiah 1:4 "4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, ... " However, this refers to the plates of brass! Lehi's knowledge of the "language of the Egyptians" was apparently a requirement to read/understand the brass plates.

Dr. William Hamblin has written a treatise on reformed Egyptian which includes a number of suggestions for what it might have meant. One of those is: "The earliest known example of mixing a Semitic language with modified Egyptian hieroglyphic characters is the Byblos Syllabic inscriptions (eighteenth century B.C.), from the city of Byblos on the Phoenician coast. This script is described as a "syllabary [that] is clearly inspired by the Egyptian hieroglyphic system, and in fact is the most important link known between the hieroglyphs and the Canaanite alphabet." Interestingly enough, most Byblos Syllabic texts were written on copper plates. Thus, it would not be unreasonable to describe the Byblos Syllabic texts as a Semitic language written on metal plates in "reformed Egyptian characters," which is precisely what the Book of Mormon describes." (Hamblin, "Reformed Egyptian" ).

Another important consideration in the discussion of the language of the Book of Mormon is that "language of the Egyptians" does not necessarily need to refer to a written or spoken language. There are several texts in the Book of Mormon which talk about "Language" where it appears to mean learning, and not language specifically.

Enos 1:1 "1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man--for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord--and blessed be the name of my God for it--"

Mosiah 1:2 "2 And it came to pass that he had three sons; and he called their names Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be taught in all the language of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding; and that they might know concerning the prophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers, which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord." (See also Mosiah 9:1 Mosiah 9:1 and Alma 5:61)

None of these passages make sense if we assume that they are to be taken with a literal meaning to "language". It is surely not unusual that a child learns the "language" of the father. In these cases, "language" seems to follow the concept Nephi used when he was taught in the "learning of the Jews". It may or may not have any relevance on the meaning of "language of the Egyptians".

[MatthewG]

Our good friend Brant Gardner's take.

Very interesting, does he have a blog or website?

[e=mc2]

Very interesting, does he have a blog or website?

I suspect that it is from his commentary. If he shows up he can tell us if he has this online. I bought his printed edition, and it just simply ROCKS!

[Brant Gardner]

If he shows up he can tell us if he has this online.

I finally took the commentary offline. However, I understand that archive.org still has a functioning copy of the whole thing. See here.

[e=mc2]

I finally took the commentary offline. However, I understand that archive.org still has a functioning copy of the whole thing. See here.

You what?!? Oh dude, that's 50 lashes with a razor strap. No wet noodles for you, we wanna hear ya scream in pain for that dunderheaded move.

[ebeddoulos]

You what?!? Oh dude, that's 50 lashes with a razor strap. No wet noodles for you, we wanna hear ya scream in pain for that dunderheaded move.

Second.