Joseph Antley Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I'm thinking about picking up Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. Can those here who've read it tell me their opinion of the book?
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I'm thinking about picking up Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. Can those here who've read it tell me their opinion of the book?Quinn overblows some of his evidence. However, I'd say over allâ?¦ his book is a valuable contribution to Mormon studies. I'd recommend the book, but be prepared to sift through a few bad arguments. The biggest problem of the book, in my view, is that Quinn downplays freemasonry.
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Quinn makes some stunningly off-base and unfounded assertions for the quality of scholar some believe he is.
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 It was D. Michael Quinn who said “…correlation…is…[great]…”[1]FOOTNOTES[1]For more, see Constantinus Tischendorf, Novurn Testamentum Graece, 8th ed., 2 vols. (Leipzig: Giesecke & Devrient, 1869-72); B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek, 2 vols. (Cambridge and London: Macmillan and Co., 1881); Hermann von Soden, Die Schriften des Neuen Testaments (G
Wiki Wonka Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Quinn makes some stunningly off-base and unfounded assertions for the quality of scholar some believe he is.A few of those assertions have been documented in the FAIR Wiki here:Early Mormonism and the Magic World ViewEarly Mormonism and the Magic World View/IndexEarly Mormonism and the Magic World View/Use of sources
Lamanite Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I'm thinking about picking up Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. Can those here who've read it tell me their opinion of the book?Of all Quinn's books to choose from, why that one? I would say start with Clarks bio. Then anything he wrote in the 60's and 70's. He had a good back and forth with Ehat on the Council of 50. After the early 80's things get dicey. I like "Origins" but that's about it after that time period.Big UP!Lamanite
Bill Hamblin Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I'm thinking about picking up Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. Can those here who've read it tell me their opinion of the book?http://farms.byu.edu//publications/pdf/rev...309583-12-2.pdf
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 John Dehlin: How much of this understanding about magic do we owe to Michael Quinn, do you think? Or is he just one of many? Should we sort of thank him for the research that he did, to help us to really understand it better? Richard Bushman: Well... The basic research was done before Michael Quinn by scholars of European culture and American culture. Keith Thomas' religion and the decline of magic is the key turning book, and then other books about the hermetic tradition and the renaissance, and Michael built on that. I suppose maybe many Latter-day Saints learned nothing about magic until they came to Michael. The trouble is that his book, it doesn't really put things in balance. What it does is that it just piles it higher and deeper. He gets this huge material, collects it all, and assumes that this vast quantity of lore that developed during the centuries was in the minds of everyone who ever went out and searched for buried treasure. So it kind of leads you astray at the same time that it opens up a new world to you. So, I think it a fabulous work of scholarship. Ingenious I must say. But, I mean <starts to chuckle slightly> it is really overblown in so many ways.Mormon Stories Podcase, 3 of Bushman series.The massive amount of information packed within this book alone makes it worth its price. But again... be prepared to do some sifting.
Joseph Antley Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Of all Quinn's books to choose from, why that one? I would say start with Clarks bio. Then anything he wrote in the 60's and 70's. He had a good back and forth with Ehat on the Council of 50.I'm interested in what degree folk magic existed among Joseph's family and other early saints. It's just a topic I like, and apparently Quinn's work is a must-read in that area. But now I'm way because a lot of LDS seems to have problems with his sourcing and methods of scholarship.
John Larsen Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I'm thinking about picking up Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. Can those here who've read it tell me their opinion of the book?I thought it was interesting. Some of Quinn's conclusions are a stretch--but the book will point you to a lot of first hand history that is interesting in and of itself outside of Quinn's contextualization. He does provide quite a bit of 19th century history surrounding Mormonism which can also be fascinating. Besides all of that, I personal find Quinn readable (as long as you don't get lost following all of the footnotes) and he himself is a fascinating character, which shows up in his writing. Just watching his strange thought process unfold is worth the read. The way to read his books is to read it once through, and then start reading the foot notes referring back to the main text on the second pass, in the reverse way you would read a normal academic work. If you are serious about Mormon studies, you can't skip Quinn or you will be left out of an important part of the discussion.I'm interested in what degree folk magic existed among Joseph's family and other early saints. It's just a topic I like, and apparently Quinn's work is a must-read in that area. But now I'm way because a lot of LDS seems to have problems with his sourcing and methods of scholarship.Feh! The same complaints are rightfully levied against many LDS authors. It is still interesting to hear what they have to say.
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I'm interested in what degree folk magic existed among Joseph's family and other early saints. It's just a topic I like, and apparently Quinn's work is a must-read in that area. But now I'm way because a lot of LDS seems to have problems with his sourcing and methods of scholarship.If you are interested in studying Mormonism and Magic, then by all means, get the book. Whether the it has major problems or not, any responsible scholar planning to write on this topic must not ignore this publication. I would also suggest John R. Brooke's "The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844."
maklelan Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 http://farms.byu.edu//publications/pdf/rev...309583-12-2.pdfYes, no discussion of Quinn's scholarship would be complete with Dr. Hamblin's 157 page review. It's almost as lengthy as Pardee's 404 page review of Tropper's Ugaritic grammar.
USU78 Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 His fundamentally and profoundly flawed reading of Der Goldne Topf, without understanding anything of the Volkswissenschaftliche milieu that gave rise to it, established for me once and for all that, at the end of the day, he had no idea what the hell he was talking about trying to draw a connection between the fancies of European gentlemen and ladies in the pre-Biedermeier and the earthy democrats of the American frontier, for all their laughable airs.USU "Take that, Papa" 78
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Quinn makes some stunningly off-base and unfounded assertions for the quality of scholar some believe he is.I'd say the same for even Bushman. Anyone attempting to produce publications as large as theirs is gonna make some significant mistakes. It is bound to happen. The question is, do those mistakes outweigh the value of the book? I don't think so.
Bill Hamblin Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 If you are interested in studying Mormonism and Magic, then by all means, get the book. Whether the it has major problems or not, any responsible scholar planning to write on this topic must not ignore this publication. I would also suggest John R. Brooke's "The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844."http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=151
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=151http://www.amazon.com/Refiners-Fire-Making...4/dp/0521565642"John Brooke takes a controversial romp over the field of previous Mormon scholarship. When he has done, he has managed to raise the intellectual pedigree of Joseph Smith by establishing his close kinship with European hermeticists and the subversive sectarians of the Radical Reformation. It is a fascinating argument that traces the influence of ideas through complicated social networks of neighbors and kin. The people 'prepared' for Mormonism are a surprising lot." R. Laurence Moore, Cornell University"The Refiner's Fire explores the complex and always intriguing world of early Mormon theological and ritual evolution with remarkable learning, fairness, and daring--an exciting, sophisticated account sure to generate both controversy and a renewed appreciation of early Mormon spiritual creativity." John Butler, Yale University"This is not just a revealing history of the backgrund of the first Mormons and early Mormonism but a larger history of early American culture that will do almost as much for readers who are interested in the cultural context in which this new American religion developed as it will do for those who simply want to learn more about Mormon beginnings." Jan Shipps, Indiana University-Purdue University, Indianapolis"The Refiner's Fire explores the complex and always intriguing world of early Mormon theological and ritual evolution with remarkable learning, fairness, and daring--an exciting, sophisticated account sure to generate both controversy and a renewed appreciation of early Mormon spiritual creativity." John Butler, Yale University"This is not just a revealing history of the backgrund of the first Mormons and early Mormonism but a larger history of early American culture that will do almost as much for readers who are interested in the cultural context in which this new American religion developed as it will do for those who simply want to learn more about Mormon beginnings." Jan Shipps, Indiana University-Purdue University, Indianapolis"His book is a model of the historian's enterprise....[brooke] blends the passion of the detective and the dispassion of the good judge as he describes the background and context of Mormonism." Martin E. Marty, Commonwealth"An insightful contribution to the controversy surrounding the origins of Mormonism." College & Research Libraries News"Excellent....This study not only sets Mormon religious history into a frontier occult milieu but offers important understanding of the beliefs and practices of Americans outside the individual and institutional carriers commonly the focus of previous occult histories." The Reader's Review"The Refiner's Fire is a wonderful book, thoroughly researched and rich in interpretive detail." Curtis Johnson, The Journal of American History"The Refiner's Fire is an important and daring work for which Brooke has received the Bancroft Prize in American history....Combining intellectual and demographic history with rare skill, Brooke sheds great light on transatlantic subcultures that have not been labeled "occult" (read "hidden") for nothing." Religious Studies ReviewNew England Historical Association Book Awardthe Society of Historians of the Early American Republic Prizethe Bancroft Prize in American HistoryOne of Choice's Outstanding Academic Books for 1995http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/cata...isbn=0521345456
hagoth7 Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I thought it was interesting. Some of Quinn's conclusions are a stretch--but the book will point you to a lot of first hand history that is interesting in and of itself outside of Quinn's contextualization.Agreed. I picked it up earlier this winter, looking for a few helpful launching pads, and found it quite helpful for that.So for my specific needs, I'm glad it was available. However, I'd be surprised if any of the people I know would benefit from it. But, I'll admit, my social circle is about the size of this period >.
Joseph Antley Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Well, I ordered it. I look forward to at least seeing his research.
Bill Hamblin Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 New England Historical Association Book Awardthe Society of Historians of the Early American Republic Prizethe Bancroft Prize in American HistoryOne of Choice's Outstanding Academic Books for 1995http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/cata...isbn=0521345456Really bad books win book awards all the time. So?At any rate, the only question is whether his arguments and evidence and analysis are valid. For that case to be made, someone has to engage the criticisms found in reviews of his work. So far, no one has done so after more than a decade. Brooke certainly hasn't. Until someone does, it would seem the criticisms stand.
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Well, I ordered it. I look forward to at least seeing his research. You should probably read Hamblin's review at the same time.
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Really bad books win book awards all the time. So?And really good books get bad reviews all the time by apologists. So?At any rate, the only question is whether his arguments and evidence and analysis are valid. For that case to be made, someone has to engage the criticisms found in reviews of his work. So far, no one has done so after more than a decade. Brooke certainly hasn't. Until someone does, it would seem the criticisms stand.As you are aware, his more recent edition has engaged some of your older criticisms. So maybe you will have to wait for another edition.
Bill Hamblin Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 And really good books get bad reviews all the time by apologists. So?As you are aware, his more recent edition has engaged some of your older criticisms. So maybe you will have to wait for another edition.Actually I'm not aware this. Are you saying that there is a second edition of Brooke's book in which he responds to criticisms from the FARMS review? Or that Quinn's second edition has some response?
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Actually I'm not aware this. Are you saying that there is a second edition of Brooke's book in which he responds to criticisms from the FARMS review? Or that Quinn's second edition has some response?I was talking about quinn's. Sorry. I lost track of which book we were talking about. My bad. Trying to make dinner and respond to posts at the same time.
Bill Hamblin Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I was talking about quinn's. Sorry. I lost track of which book we were talking about. My bad. Trying to make dinner and respond to posts at the same time. My review of Quinn is the review of his second edition, and engages his attempts at defending his position.
Bill Hamblin Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Yes, no discussion of Quinn's scholarship would be complete with Dr. Hamblin's 157 page review. It's almost as lengthy as Pardee's 404 page review of Tropper's Ugaritic grammar.Gasp! Now that's what I call a review! I'm trying to test my new voice writer and find that sometimes don't enunciate properly and types the wrong word. But it's still fun!
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