Facsimilie 2: Championship Edition

[Olavarria]

Im probably the only one who thinks this is fun but what the hell?

Figure 1

What did the Egyptians call this figure?

"Soul coming into being (bɜ m ḫpr) / lord in dread (nb m

[Shadowolf]

Are you kidding??

This most definitely FUN

By the way I have always enjoyed your posts... keep it up

Thanks

Shadowolf

[Olavarria]

Thank you very much.

Just keep in mind, my conclusions(what little I provide) are tentative as I realize that I am a

amatuer apologist hack that still has alot to learn.

[e=mc2]

Hey Her Amun, you wouldn't happen to have an electronic copy of Gee's paper would you? I still don't have a copy of it. I am soooooo horribly out of date - GRIN!

[Mortal Man]

I think its fun. And to make it more fun...

Why would Egyptians use Hebrew words for stars and planets, especially when Hebrew didn't exist in Abraham's day? http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/U...ry/history.html

The sons of Horus don't represent the four cardinal points in this context. I believe that requires wings.

As for the "God himself..." quote, that is a different context. If that's what he believed this figure to be then why didn't he say just that?

By admitting any quote from any person at any time in any place, it is possible to connect anything to anything.

[USU78]

I think its fun. And to make it more fun...

Why would Egyptians use Hebrew words for stars and planets, especially when Hebrew didn't exist in Abraham's day? http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/U...ry/history.html

The sons of Horus don't represent the four cardinal points in this context. I believe that requires wings.

As for the "God himself..." quote, that is a different context. If that's what he believed this figure to be then why didn't he say just that?

By admitting any quote from any person at any time in any place, it is possible to connect anything to anything.

MM, what is your position about the argument that the BoA is the product of an early Christian or pre-Christian era Alexandrian Jew or Jewish Christian?

[Olavarria]

I think its fun. And to make it more fun...

Why would Egyptians use Hebrew words for stars and planets, especially when Hebrew didn't exist in Abraham's day? http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/U...ry/history.html

My guess is that "the Egyptians" didn't use Hebrew words for stars but that a handful of Egyptians who ever read the BoA did. There are alot of things going on here. IFan actual Egyptian copy of the BoA was among the JSP thenit would appear that this BoA has been heavily redacted and edited over the 2,000 year span of it's existance. This might explain the presence of Hebrew.

The sons of Horus don't represent the four cardinal points in this context. I believe that requires wings.

Thats the thing, the BoA and the hypocephalus of Sheshonq have two completly different origins. Ultimatly, the BoA or it's core, was writen by Abraham in 2,000-1,500BC(?). The Hypocephalus of Sheshonq is from a much later period Saite to Greco-Roman(?). One was written by a Semite, the other by an Egyptian. This would mean that Sheshonq's hypocephalus, or one like it was added, to the BoA centuries later. The BoA was not written for an Egyptian audience. So when an Egyptian reads about this strange astronomy it would make sense to compare it to something he did understand, something that was more familiar.

Im guessing that the original Egyptian context of the hypo is to show the the sun's journey through the cosmos. I'm guessing that with the exception of the baboons, each figure is a form of the sun. The bottum half showing it's journey through the underworld, the middle half its daily birth. The top two figures showing its forms in the night and day. Sheshonq wants to be like the sun and go through the same process, resurrection and deifiation. Thats my guess.

There are still portions of the BoA missing. I could imagine an Egyptian reading about Enisgoondosh, how it's the sun and say "What the....". Then his teacher brings out a hypocephalus and says,"Look you know how the Cow is the Sky and all the stars are on her body, she eats the sun at night and then gives birth to him during the morning? Remember the story about how the Eye of Re raged and destroyed a whole bunch of stuff?" I can then pictur ethe Egyptian student having an "aha" moment. When it comes to the Sons of Horus, in the original context of the hypo, I have no idea what it means. Maybe it represents....I don't pretend to know. But when the missing part of the BoA mentions the earth's relation to Enisgoondosh and the Egyptian student draws another blank stare. Again, I can picture the kind teacher refering to the hypo and using it as an analogy for the native Egyptian to understand a non-Egyptian text.

Same thing goes for Kolob. As it says in the Book of the Dead:

"Now come into being all the words of the Lord of All: I was Atum when I was alone in the Primordial Waters; I was Re in his glorious appearings when he began to rule what he had made.

What does it mean? It means Re when he began to rule what he had made, when he began to appear as king, before the Supports of Shu hadcome into being, when he was upon the hill which is in Hermopolis, when he destroyed the Children of Impotence on the hill which is in Hermopolis.

I am the Great God, the self-created.

Who is it? The Great God, the self-created, is water, he is Nun, father of the gods. Otherwise said: He is Re. He who became his names, Lord of the Ennead.

Who is he?

He is Atum who is in his sun-disk. Otherwise said: He is Re when he rises in the eastern horizon of the sky.(Book of Gong forth by Day, papyrus of Ani, Plate 7)".

All the BoA's talk of Kolob being "the first creation",with it's solar associations, God using Kolob as an analogy to describe Himself, as He presides over the Council....might be kinda wierd to an Egyptian as these aren't Egyptian terms. But that is what the hypocephalus and the vignettes were for. An Egyptian could have used the hypo as an analogous visual aid and saw the parallells between those Abrahamic concepts with the sun god's own status as the first creation(he created himself) and its own preeminance in the Ennead(a council of gods). Abraham wanted to be a Resurrected God like Heavenly Father, Sheshonq wanted to be reborn, a god, like the sun etc.

It should be remembered that the Greco-Roman period was noted for it's syncretism. Egyptians borrowed from the Greek Pagans, Christians and Jews. The Book of Abraham, as it stands today and as it probably stood in Hor's day is an example of such mishmashing.

The OP was not trying to be a "Boom!! In your face!!! How could Joseph have known?" moment. What it does show is that there is some overlap to how Joseph identified and how the Egyptians identified those figures as. I think the BoA material and the Hypo have two different sources thus they shouldn't agree completly. But there should be enough overlap so as to render the Hypo a good visual aid by which to understand the BoA concepts.

As for the "God himself..." quote, that is a different context. If that's what he believed this figure to be then why didn't he say just that? By admitting any quote from any person at any time in any place, it is possible to connect anything to anything.

You don't understand what Im trying to do here. Here is how I look at things. Just as with the BoM and Mesoamerica, I'm not try to "prove" Joseph got it right. Been there, done that, saw the movie.

"Our doctrine and practice is, and I have made it mine through life-to recieve truth no matter where it comes from." (BY in Journal of Discources 14:160)

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

[Mortal Man]

MM, what is your position about the argument that the BoA is the product of an early Christian or pre-Christian era Alexandrian Jew or Jewish Christian?

I assume you are referring to one of these?

http://www.hains.net/articles/moyer/jewishbookofabraham.html

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/books/?b...&chapid=168

I think the Jewish Redactor theory is probably the best explanation the church currently has for the BoA. I suppose it is possible that there is a 100 BC - 200 AD book still waiting to be found, like the ToA and AoA. And there are all kinds of precedents for Jewish writers adapting Egyptian themes to suit their own purposes. I think that the creation story in Genesis was taken straight from the Egyptian temples; e.g., the Gods are plural, Atum becomes Adam and there is this, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." If that's not a Breathing Permit I don't know what is. Also, "dust of the ground" = clay = Khnum forming man on his pottery wheel. When I look at Facsimilie 2, fig. 5, I think of the golden calf sin of the Israelites. There are all kinds of connections;

HOWEVER,

Joseph Smith didn't claim to restore a book from a Jewish or early Christian redactor. He claimed to translate THE Book of Abraham, written by his own hand upon papyrus. Why would he restore a heavily altered version of a book or a different book claiming to be the original when he could restore the original itself?

[Mortal Man]

I could imagine an Egyptian reading about Enisgoondosh, how it's the sun and say "What the....". Then his teacher brings out a hypocephalus and says,"Look you know how the Cow is the Sky and all the stars are on her body, she eats the sun at night and then gives birth to him during the morning? Remember the story about how the Eye of Re raged and destroyed a whole bunch of stuff?" I can then pictur ethe Egyptian student having an "aha" moment. When it comes to the Sons of Horus, in the original context of the hypo, I have no idea what it means. Maybe it represents....I don't pretend to know. But when the missing part of the BoA mentions the earth's relation to Enisgoondosh and the Egyptian student draws another blank stare. Again, I can picture the kind teacher refering to the hypo and using it as an analogy for the native Egyptian to understand a non-Egyptian text.

For the sake of moving the discussion along, I will accept your "Hypocephalus as an Egyptian Teaching Aid" theory. It is easy to defend because, as you mentioned, it only requires "some overlap" between the JST and Egyptologists' interpretations. However, we still have Facsimilies 1 and 3. How does

Facsimilie 1:

Anubis = Elkenah?

Osiris/Hor = Abraham?

Qebehsenuf = Elkenah?

Duamutef = Libnah?

Hapy = Mahmackrah?

Imsety = Korash?

Sedet = Pharoh?

Facsimilie 3:

Osiris = Abraham? (at least it's consistent with Facs. 1)

Isis (female) = King Pharoh (male)?

Maat (female) = Prince of Pharaoh (male), as written above the hand?

Horus = Shulem, as represented by the characters above his hand?

Anubis = Olimlah? (should be Elkenah to be consistent with Facs. 1)

If gender is such a big deal in Facs. 2 Fig. 7, they why is it inconsequential in Facsimile 3? Let's assume that you could find another example of some male Pharoh playing Isis or Maat in some festival somewhere. I once saw Peter Pan played by a female actor but does that mean that whenever I see Peter Pan I should think of him as either male or female?

Should Occam's Razor play a role in any of this? If you were investigating the church for the first time what would your impressions be? Consider this quote from Ashment, http://www.lds-mormon.com/precis.shtml

Proclamationism requires deep commitment to a position in order to be able to ignore the weight of any opposing evi

[Olavarria]

I think the Jewish Redactor theory is probably the best explanation the church currently has for the BoA.

Maybe it was an Egyptian redactor? Same difference.

I suppose it is possible that there is a 100 BC - 200 AD book still waiting to be found, like the ToA and AoA. And there are all kinds of precedents for Jewish writers adapting Egyptian themes to suit their own purposes.

There where also Egyptian priests incorporating Greek pagan, Christian and Jewish themes into their religion.

"Some Egyptian papyri, for example, contain Egyptian instructions on one side and Semitic writings on the back sideâ??in one case Psalms chapters 20â??55. One Egyptian temple archive (with an extensive collection of Egyptian rituals), provides an early copy of the â??Prayer of Jacobâ? and two copies of the â??Eighth Book of Mosesâ? with a discussion of the initiation into the temple at Jerusalem." http://en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_Tr...Book_of_Abraham

Also see, http://books.google.com/books?id=K0hCj5u3H...nubis%2Bdemotic

We can quibble about why an Egyptian priest mentioned Abraham, Anubis and a Lioncouch in the same text, but I don't claim to be able to read dead egyption minds.

HOWEVER,

Joseph Smith didn't claim to restore a book from a Jewish or early Christian redactor. He claimed to translate THE Book of Abraham, written by his own hand upon papyrus. Why would he restore a heavily altered version of a book or a different book claiming to be the original when he could restore the original itself?

Dunno, could it be that the most relevant parts, ie the Abrahamic Covenant and Pre-Mortal Life are preserved in a "good enough" condition? Or is the purpose of the BoA to help us decide whether Abraham was from Syria or Iraq?

Did he believe it was an autograph? Maybe, maybe not. He may have or not have, at different times. Clearly the papyri are too young to be Abraham's autographs, so if he did, then he was mistaken. But he supposedly wrote about them being "purportedly written by his own hand, upon papyrus,"(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 2:235, 236, 348â??51).

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/P...FAQ#endnote_hc1

Dunno know if this is an accurate source. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/purportedly

[Mortal Man]

But he supposedly wrote about them being "purportedly written by his own hand, upon papyrus,"(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 2:235, 236, 348â??51).

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/P...FAQ#endnote_hc1

Dunno know if this is an accurate source.

My understanding is that the editor of the Times and Seasons inserted "purportedly" after receiving a letter from Joseph stating, "the commencement of the Records discovered in Egypt some time since as penned by the hand of Father Abraham." Chris, please correct me if I'm wrong.