Adam-god

[Sargon]

Thanks.

[erichard]

...Now, some are saying that the Holy Ghost was simply "bearing record of the Son" when he did this. But can we not agree this is a somewhat unusual way to go about it? And one that is bound to cause confusion to Adam and anybody else who reads the record?

...--Consiglieri

Hi Consiglieri,

Consider these scriptures:

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, [the Holy Ghost] is come, he will guide you into all truth: FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

--John 16

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

--2 Peter 1

These verses indicate to me that the the "Word of the Lord" revelations are, and always were, given through the Holy Ghost.

So even though a revelation may say: "Thus saith the Lord" it is really the Holy Ghost that is speaking to the Prophet, and not the LORD himself. The Holy Ghost does not speak of himself, but speaks for and in behalf of the LORD.

Just my thoughts.

Richard

[zerinus]

I, too, don't know of any time when the Holy Ghost has said to anyone, "I am the Only Begotten."Except for Moses 5:9, of course.

Now, some are saying that the Holy Ghost was simply "bearing record of the Son" when he did this. But can we not agree this is a somewhat unusual way to go about it? And one that is bound to cause confusion to Adam and anybody else who reads the record?

No, I donâ??t agree. The context makes it clear that the Holy Ghost is bearing witness of someone else, not of Himself. Here is the quote:

Moses 5

:

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the

Father

and the

Son,

saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

I see a distinction being made here between the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. The Son and the Holy Ghost are not the same persons. As I said earlier, another way of interpreting that scripture is that the Son is bearing witness of Himself through the Holy Ghost, as made possible in this verse:

2 Nephi 32

:

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.â?¦

According to this scripture, whenever someone speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, they speak the words of Christ. That implies that the Holy Ghost itself speaks the words of Christ, hence in Moses 5:9. The scriptures teach that God acts, speaks, and performs miracles by the power of the Holy Ghost; so why not testify of Himself by the power of the Holy Ghost?

Another thing that your exegesis suggests is that in the days of Adam the Holy Ghost was the Only Begotten Son. Well, if we find other references to Jesus as the Only Begotten Son of God in the days of Adam, that should refute your argument. As it happens we do:

Moses 6

:

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.

57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

If the Holy Ghost is bearing record of the Son, why does the Holy Ghost not simply refer to the Son in the third person; i.e., "The Son is the Only Begotten"?

See above.

Most Mormons have born record of the Son while bearing their testimonies. I have been a member for 30-years and I do not recall any of the hundreds of Mormons I have heard bear record of the Son state, "I am the Only Begotten." That would be quite confusing, indeed.

Mormons are not the Holy Ghost. See above.

It would seem that, if your interpretation of Moses 5:9 is correct, God has indeed become the author of confusion.

You are saying that everything that God says or does must automatically be comprehensible to everyone. I donâ??t agree. Many of the things that God has said are deeply spiritual, and it requires a discerning spirit to be able to understand them correctly.

Now, back to the question first posed by CMZ.

If the Only Begotten was indeed fulfilling the function of the Holy Ghost while Adam was in mortality, which is the plain reading of the text, there is likely a reason for it.

To you that may be the â??plain reading of the text,â? but I assure you that to me it is not.

And the reason would likely be that the God who has subsequently (and even today) served in the office of the Holy Ghost was not able to fill that office while Adam was in mortality.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. This is not LDS doctrine as far as I understand it. God (presumably you mean the Father) has never â??served in the office of the Holy Ghostâ?. This is the craziest thing I ever heard, as far as Mormonism is concerned. It makes me wonder where you have been learning your Mormonism from. According to Joseph Smith:

Everlasting covenant was made between three personages

before the organization of this earth,

and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham's record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator. (Joseph Smith,

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,

selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.190)

Each member of the Godhead has had His own â??officeâ? to act in, with the Father being supreme overall. All three bear witness to the truth of each other. There has never been an occasion where the Father or the Son should have needed to â??act in the office of the Holy Ghostâ?. That was the craziest doctrine I ever heard.

And the reason the current Holy Ghost was not able to be the Holy Ghost while Adam was in mortality could be because he was at the time busy filling another assignment; that assignment involving being tabernacled in a body of flesh and bone, and later a body of flesh and blood.

Keeps getting crazier and crazier as far as I can see!

I hope this makes the nature of CMZ's question a little clearer.

Sure, you bet it does. LOL!

Hi Consiglieri,

Consider these scriptures:

These verses indicate to me that the the "Word of the Lord" revelations are, and always were, given through the Holy Ghost. So even though a revelation may say: "Thus saith the Lord" it is really the Holy Ghost that is speaking to the Prophet, and not the LORD himself. The Holy Ghost does not speak of himself, but speaks for and in behalf of the LORD.

Just my thoughts.

Richard

Thank you Richard. That was also a good reply.

zerinus

[consiglieri]

Keeps getting crazier and crazier as far as I can see!

"Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true."

--Niels Bohr, to a young physicist